mobility is not why juggernauts need to be "broken" to be good

Big Lincoln·Aug 20, 2017·84 votes·5,683 views

it's CC overabundance

I can live with jumpy rabbit champions like Camille and Yasuo. I can't handle that nearly every modern tank and support is capable of CC chaining me by themselves

I would like this misconception to be cleared up and repeat what I've said a few times before. CC creep is far worse to the health of the game than mobility and reducing its abundance would mean melee carries wouldn't need to be heinously overtuned just to be worth playing

176 Comments

AhristocatsAug 20, 201753 votes

people won't believe me when i say that as Darius or Nasus, it's not even possible to move against champions like Braum Thresh TahmKench Trundle Ivern

just LET ME FCKING MOVE ALREADY i signed to play League, not to be forced to AFK

braum alone makes you unable to move, now think about braum+ a mage mid+ an adc with one cc+potentially cc by the enemy diver in the jungle/toplane

and now ornn is being released welp

Shuriman CuratorAug 20, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-20T10:40:58.334+0000)

people won't believe me when i say that as Darius or Nasus, it's not even possible to move against champions like

just LET ME FCKING MOVE ALREADY i signed to play League, not to be forced to AFK

braum alone makes you impossible to move, now think about braum+ a mage mid+ an adc with one cc+potentially cc by the enemy diver in the jungle/toplane

and now ornn is being released welp

Just had a game last night as Nasus, got cc chained to China and back. Literally couldn't do anything. It was a very interactive and fun experience.

I remember when the Nasus buffs went through and people were bitching about how OP he was, when actuality he still gets dicked on.

He's one of the first champs I played when I started LoL back in late S2. Sucks that he's more of a liability than an actual threat in game.

Iota ThetaAug 20, 20171 votes

At least it's only the next immobilizing CC (too bad, Trundle).

Although I've never felt "impossible to move" against a Braum. Maybe I've just been against bad Braums?

AhristocatsAug 20, 20176 votes

How do you move? he has 2 sec 80% slow then 2 sec stun his ult knocks up for 1-1.5 sec, then slows for 3 sec?

by the time he did all of this, his Q is back then his stun is back

how do you move?

and that without counting other cc in his team

edit: 1.75 sec stun 70% slow 4 sec slow on ult

SnowplosionAug 20, 20174 votes

I mean if don't get hit by the slow that's a good start. That's easier said than done though.

OyddAWqJ5rAug 20, 201723 votes

Dw Riot is gonna fix that issue soon. When Orn is released you won't even be able to pick Nasus because he'll CC him out of champ select.

SdarsAug 20, 201715 votes

It's not just CC creep. It's CC creep + damage creep, and I'd say damage creep is even worse.

Take a melee champion against a ranged champion. Now make the ranged champion kite and the melee champion chase. Count the number of attacks the ranged champ can do until the melee reaches him. Let's say he got a third of his hp. Now let's imagine the juggernaut has double the dmg if you look at %hp. While the juggernaut dealt 100% of the adc's hp, the adc only dealt 50%, so the juggernaut is left at 16.7% hp.

Now let's double the damage in the game. Now, the adc manages to deal 2 thirds of the juggernaut's hp before he's caught. So now, the adc only needs to deal 33.3% of the juggernaut's hp, which means the juggernaut only gets to deal 66.6% of the adc's hp.

Both classes had damage doubled but 1 benefited way more than the other. Now let's say we add 1 cc ability onto the juggernaut. The CC that felt balanced when damage values weren't so high becomes oppressive when you double the damage, because it skews it even more in favor of the adc. But we both know CC didn't stay the same. There was CC creep too. So now you can see why juggernauts are so broken in this game state. While they're being chain CC'd, they're being shredded by carries, and the few squichy/semi-squichy melees they encounter tend to be jumpy as all hell, so they're often stuck with tanks. Now you see why they're made to be so broken: it's because the current game state is broken.

Even with strong peel, it's not like you couldn't move if given more time. You can't be cc chained forever... It's just that 1 cc chain feels like forever, because that's how long it takes you to die.

Riot, please lower overall champion damage in the game.

VerxintAug 20, 20173 votes

This is actually spot on. It used to be that you'd get CC'd and pounded, but you'd march on through it like a champ, and they had to continually position around you like a threat

The way it is now, you get hit by one CC and so much damage is unloaded on you from such safe positions you have no choice but to retreat. Despite having item 3143 item 3065 item 3075 item 3742 you get bursted too low to fight in just one or two CC's from enemies you have no hope of hitting.

I don't mind getting kited. I don't mind getting chunked like mad. I don't mind getting CC'd. I have a problem when it only takes two enemy champions to do all 3 at once to the point where my 4 tank items become meaningless.

MordepoolAug 21, 20171 votes

I can't recall how many times I have been CC'd and Bursted through my Steraks shield. Which is intended to prevent burst.

When the core Juggernaut item fails to do it's intended goal. That reflects on the class as a whole.

When they "buffed" it they focused on making it a more offensive options as opposed to having More health like everyone wanted

VerxintAug 21, 20172 votes

I haven't built a Sterak's in weeks, it just isn't worth it anymore. You basically have to get it as a 3rd or 4th item, and even then it barely helps you live and doesnt feel like the extra damage is doing anything.

fuffychanAug 20, 201711 votes

I miss the days when tanks had 1 cc to watch out for Malphite and if you do a good job avoiding it you can then play the game

Now every tank has 3 aoe ccs usually knockups and its stupid Zac Galio Maokai Sejuani

Big LincolnAug 20, 201715 votes

me too

revert sejuani this rework is dumb

AhristocatsAug 20, 201714 votes

permaslow is not better in any way

let's not pretend you could move as a melee against pre-rework sej

DunkinNoobsAug 20, 201713 votes

At least old Sej was on the other side of the spectrum where she brought terror to ranged champions rather than being yet another anti-melee tank.

Big LincolnAug 20, 201712 votes

this, sej shit on ADC scum but lost to most bruisers and fighters in a duel

felt great, too

LankPantsAug 20, 20174 votes

CD: 6 seconds 40% CDR CD: 3.6 seconds Duration: 1.5 seconds Best case uptime: 41.67% of the time

Care to explain how the fuck 41.67=100, because assuming it's not Sejuani hasn't had a permaslow since S3 when she was first reworked.

AhristocatsAug 20, 20174 votes

oh wow, it's almost AS IF she built IBG and Q CC duration was 0.75 sec

My bad, i totally enjoyed playing against pre-rework Sej as a melee !

LankPantsAug 20, 20175 votes

Old Sej never built IBG. It was niche at best most likely never built on her.

IBG is actually something that came around with new Sej and her new super spammable W and E, seriously those spells make her old W look like it had a long CD.

If your argument is Sej builds IBG and perma slows then it makes more sense when aplied to new Sej than old, considering her W is still similar in single target slow potential to her old E, I'm not sure on exact duration and strength since the wiki literally just says "slows briefly", but my guess is it's about 50-60% for about one second and you know, she actually builds IBG as a situational item now rather than a niche one since her HP scaling got crippled.

AhristocatsAug 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Old Sej never built IBG. It was niche at best most likely never built on her.

sure LUL

{quoted}

IBG is actually something that came around with new Sej and her new super spammable W and E

Sejuani had a stronger base AD Sejuani literally built it in every fcking game but that's also because IBG was broken

{quoted}

If your argument is Sej builds IBG and perma slows then it makes more sense when aplied to new Sej than old

i don't really care, new and old sej were both cancer to melees

LankPantsAug 20, 20171 votes

Sejuani literally built it in every fcking game but that's also because IBG was broken

At the time when Sejuani built it it was also being spammed by tank Ekko, Poppy and Maokai to far greater effect. You really shouldn't judge what a champion builds based off of what is strong at current, because what is strong at current will likely be nerfed and IBG was rightfully nerfed. After the nerf Sejuani did not buy IBG because she could make up it's 70 odd damage with the 500 HP from a DMP or a Randuin's after the HP boost from Cinderhulk thanks to the scaling on W. By the time IBG was significantly outdamaging those items it ceased to matter anyway because of the fact that IBG is physical damage and physical damage tends to get DR'd away more than magic damage.

If we're talking about busted tank Ekko IBG then yes, Sejuani built that. She also built busted Runic Echo's for about two patches, should we also base the amount of damage she dealt off of that time?

i don't really care, new and old sej were both cancer to melees

At least you've come around to accepting new Sej cancer. It's a solid start.

Here's the question though, if new Sej is at least equally cancer, does it not make sense to bring back the more unique champion that Sej was before her rework that Sej mains at least seem to prefer.

Before you bring up "more people play Sej now than before", more people played her when Cinder was broken than now, people play broken shit.

AhristocatsAug 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Here's the question though, if new Sej is at least equally cancer, does it not make sense to bring back the more unique champion that Sej was before her rework that Sej mains at least seem to prefer.

no, what would make more sense is to rework her again

{quoted}

Before you bring up "more people play Sej now than before", more people played her when Cinder was broken than now, people play broken shit.

before cinderhulk was buffed she had 4.9% pick rate which was higher than pre-rework

Big LincolnAug 20, 20174 votes

would you agree to reworking her to be more like old sej in theme and playstyle but healthier

like I've asked for many times

AhristocatsAug 20, 20172 votes

as long as you don't bring back her old W sure the obnoxious thing about old sejuani is that she was pure stat checking

give her counterplay, damage, not loaded with cc, and that's fine

Big LincolnAug 20, 20174 votes

but really let me have that old flail animation she used to have on W i don't even care if it has some goofy outer-range like Darius Q

watching her spin that flail is what gets me goin

Hexs FortuneAug 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I miss the days when tanks had 1 cc to watch out for and if you do a good job avoiding it you can then play the game

Now every tank has 3 aoe ccs usually knockups and its stupid

Think about it from the perspective of the tank player. You have low damage, a weak early game and get outscaled late.

Big LincolnAug 20, 20174 votes

tanks don't have weak early ganes unless you're one of the old ones

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 20, 20177 votes

Hell, it's not even CC overabundance.

It's that one type of CC (Displacement) is obscenely more powerful than the other CC (Stun/snare/etc.) and that tenacity is a joke. (That surprise, doesn't affect displacement). If less mobile characters had more powerful tenacity options and displacement wasn't nearly as good, it'd be fine. Just nerf displacement, buff tenacity-reduced CCs to compensate and buff the shit out of tenacity.

Irelia BotAug 20, 20172 votes

I wish Morello had stayed as the head of balance for a while longer.

He was talking about making tenacity effect knockups a little while before he left.

LankPantsAug 20, 20172 votes

I'm pretty sure it is CC overabundance. Sejuani is also absurd and generally lacks displacements.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 20, 20171 votes

Sejuani is a bad example because she's a tank. Tanks generally have hard CC. Maybe she's too mobile, sure, but she's got a fair amount of it. Janna would be a better example. A ranged character who has a knock-up, a knockback and a slow.

But really, it's not directly CC being overabundant but displacement spells. Most champions coming out usually have some form of displacement (Usually like a 0.75 second knock-up/back) and a slow or snare. Urgot? Slow, Displacement and Suppress. Rakan? Knock-up and a Charm. Xayah? Root. Kayn? Slow or Knock-up.

If there's better hard (non-displacement) CC and better tenacity, there's actual pros/cons to CC now rather than "Just get as many knock-ups so you can chain CC with no counter".

Big LincolnAug 20, 20172 votes

it's definitely too much CC in general, it should not be on 3 or all 4 spells of a champion's kit

Sejuani Poppy Galio Maokai Zac and i'll even list Gragas tbh, his Q slow is stupid and his 2 displacements are too/ all of these champs are balance nightmares because you will never find a good spot for a complete CC beast to be 'fair' in a solo lane. these designs only work on gold-starved support tanks

MartyrofsandAug 20, 20175 votes

CC creep is a result of mobility creep. As champs become more mobile you need more CC to lock them down to prevent them destroying your team.

deadlychuckAug 20, 20174 votes

I feel like CC creep is in response to mobility creep though. Which is actually really fucking stupid considering that mobile champions are less affected by CC than immobile champions, by virtue of being able to recover the distance lost faster and getting their extra mobility as a handicap to dodge most of the CC since most is attached to some kind of skillshot.

But that said, two wrongs don't make a right. Without CC creep mobility creep would be even worse than it already is, so let's just cut back on both, some champions can still be CC bots, but if that's the case, then they should be balanced like release bard.

To be fair though, riot has/had the ability to make CC creep into a mobility counter, it just required them to add lots of grounded, instead of knockbacks and knockups [slayer-jinx-unamused]

five oh tree Aug 20, 20173 votes

Well, hypothetically, hypermobile champions have their mobility take up so much of their power budget that actually landing a CC on them will render them useless compared to their less mobile counterparts.

In practice, yeah, it's more effective against immobile champions.

Kowe The EwokAug 20, 20173 votes

Yea, if there was more "Grounding" CC and less stuns a lot of melees would be viable without having brokenly strong scalings.

Remember S2 when slows were set to like 30%? These days we've 60 to 90% slows...

Big LincolnAug 20, 20179 votes

if tanks were more like Amumu with one decent cc spell on a basic and then having their ult melees would be alright

sejuani, maokai, gragas, galio zac who can lock you down for millennia are not okay

Iota ThetaAug 20, 20173 votes

Outside his ult, hasn't Maokai almost always been able to do that?

I don't want tanks more like amumu because we run into similar overlap. A lot of people wanted tanks to have unreliablilty in CC and damage like Sion, and that's effectively what we got in the update.

The overall heavier slows i see as an issue, as are displacements since they can't be reduced.

My problem with being like Amumu or current Malphite is that it doesn't feel like you do much after that ult, and sucks even more if your ult goes wrong because you don't have anything else. Beyond that, Amumu is poor without ally mages, and Malphite has to mostly W-auto and E. Last time I used Malphite, his attack speed slow felt like it didn't do much to the enemy adcs past laning phase, although that could be due to an abundance of burst.

I wouldn't mind less displacements for more meaninging debuffs overall..or pulling Cc from other classes so it's mainly tanks and supports that can have a lot, maybe mages with one. But right now, Mages have CC, Tanks have it, certain Juggs (but theirs is super limited, no complaints there), adcs have it, pretty much every class has some form of CC. Pull some of the CC from classes that don't need it (do Fizz, Talon, or Kha really need slows?) so a tank's CC doesn't feel overwhelming since they might be the only one on the enemy team with it, and also be willing to give tanks meaningful debuffs if extra CC doesn't quite fit.

And make tenacity feel worthwhile (even if Irelia's passive needs to change to allow that).

Kowe The EwokAug 20, 20172 votes

CC creep is one thing, tanks having too much damage is another. It used to be Bruiser > Tank when it comes to 1on1 situations, now most tanks easily win 1on1s with bruisers for most of the game. Tanks current state made bruisers useless. They have the CC and the damage. Personally I am in favor for decreasing tank damage, but granting them bonus damage against monsters so their clear remains the same while their 1on1 gets weakened. (P.S: I don't count full damage Jarvan or Trinity Force Camille as Bruisers, even some people do. Those are slightly more tanky assassins or "divers". Bruisers are champions like Olaf.)

An Undead bratAug 20, 20171 votes

Why deas noone ever mention Poppy when she has CC on every ability? Is it that one of them works only on champions with dashes and thus is protected from critique on Big Lincoln's posts? That's not hate or something, just a genuine question.

Big LincolnAug 20, 20172 votes

I have complained about poppy in the past, you can look up any of my tank threads and I probably mentioned her

TotalJerkAug 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-20T11:36:36.191+0000)

Remember S2 when slows were set to like 30%?

Slows also used to stack back then.

CowseedAug 20, 20173 votes

Power creep is destroying the game, mobility creep is destroying the game, cc creep is destroying the game, tanks and the tank meta warp the game around them, "can we please let the game not be decided by junglers", "can we please not let the game be decided by who has the better bot lane", "X champ is perfectly balanced", "X champ is too strong in laning", "Y champ needs to be hotfixed because they have a 53% winrate", "Z champ has a 56% winrate but is fiiiine and it's just the meta", "bring back urf", "urf is boring" etc etc etc.

Yet on average it's only 2/100 post suggesting any solutions :/

SqueyAug 21, 20172 votes

But the only way to deal with Cammile and Yasuo is to chain cc them. However all it takes to take take a nasus or darius out of a fight is to knock them over a wall or throw 1 slow at them.

DunkinNoobsAug 20, 20171 votes

Rework Galio actually made me stop playing a lot of melee champs whenever he was picked. He's not as bad now that they nerfed him so much but release Galio was this nonsensical garbage that perma CCed you while also bullying you out of lane and winning the game for his team with his ult.

Meep ManAug 20, 20171 votes

I would consider it less "CC Creep", but "Knockup Creep". There's too much of it in the game with nothing to do to reduce it. We have item 3139 item 3111 item 3222 to all work around crowd control, but none of these help against knockups.

deadlychuckAug 20, 20172 votes

Well obviously they keep adding knock up to the game!

Yasuo This fucker, has a 14.77% play rate in ranked, and a 21.29% play rate in normals (which is i think the lowest it's been in years)

Teridax68Aug 20, 20171 votes

While I do think mobility creep is still harmful to the game, I agree that CC creep is at least as bad. Mobility creep operates by giving certain champions more options than others, whereas CC creep operates by lowering options overall, and disproportionately affects certain classes. Past the laning phase, Nasus will never catch up to Riven unless she engages herself or goes AFK, but at least he can still move around and do stuff on his own in the meantime. Against champions like Tahm Kench, Thresh or Zac, however, he often will not even be able to act, particularly in teamfights where he has to contend with four more champions' worth of crowd control that, due to the abundance of cooldown reduction in itemization, can easily come back up if he survives the initial lockdown chain.

Crowd control should, at the very least, feel expensive or difficult to apply, and the very few champions who should be able to deal it cheaply should have other severe limitations instead. When you go out to limit your opponent's actions, it needs to be very intentional, and it needs to feel fair and justified to whoever's on the receiving end. Right now, a lot of CC feels very fire-and-forget, and is often incorporated into standard damage rotations, rather than used for specific instances where you need to disable an opponent in a certain way. For all his issues Veigar is, in my opinion, a better model of CC application than, say, LeBlanc or even Lux, because when he lays down his one instance of crowd control, it is with the specific intention of trapping an opponent, and is generally telegraphed enough to feel like it could've been avoided, whereas the latter two throw out roots simply as part of the normal process of killing their targets. This does not even begin to include tanks and supports, many of whom can throw out serious amounts of crowd control just by being around their targets and pressing a button, and who don't especially have to worry about it when they can do it all over again in under ten seconds.

deadlychuckAug 20, 20173 votes

Mobility creep operates by giving certain champions more options than others, whereas CC creep operates by lowering options overall, and disproportionately affects certain classes.

Ironically there is probably an inverse relationship between mobility and CC weakness. Where the classes least affected by CC creep are the mobile ones, thanks to the skill shot dodging handicap (mobility itself) and the faster recovery time, where as the most affected are the immobile classes.

So what you end up with is a game which has been creating a growing divide between the options available to immobile champions and mobile champions. Even though i think CC creep was riot's solution to mobility creep, based on how they hold up tanks assassin counters.

ÐelofashtAug 20, 20171 votes

Okay, I think we can all agree these problems exist, but what are we actually proposing as solutions. Reducing everyone's CC or increasing the power of Tenacity rewards mobile and CC applying champs as much as anyone else or is simply too difficult to apply to EVERY instance of existing CCs. Thus we have to look at a solution that applies at the time where it's most useful, for team fights.

I suggest the following:

What about reworking an item to give immunity to snares, stuns, and knockbacks, but only if you have not used a dash, blink, or teleport effect in the last 30 seconds?