Some thoughts about Rengar, mostly his Q

Doozku··4 votes·857 views

Hi, I am a Rengar player that really enjoyed playing the old Rengar, and I believe that some parts of Rengar's new kit are decent and the idea of his rework was heading in the right direction. But for the good changes, there were also some bad changes that I want to talk about. Mainly I want to address riot after their reflection about the assassin update, and what I think of Rengar after these changes.

Riot have said that they don't want Rengar's attack canceling, but I heavily disagree. If Riven is allowed to exist in her current state, then so is old Rengar auto attack cancels. If rengar jumps on you, he still kills you, whether or not he does a fancy combo or he just auto attacks you with a 1500+ crit. Let Rengar players use skill when assassinating, because his actual burst window didn't really change. If he's ahead, he oneshots with one auto like how old could oneshot with E-W-Q if ahead. If not, then he needs 1 or more Q's, like how new Rengar needs to Q you after he ults. If he's ahead, he can kill you on contact with the crit R. If you guys insist on keeping the R the same, and making him have trouble jumping onto his opponents with ease, let us use the Q which was what made him fun to play in the first place. Make Rengar counterplay macro based with warding and teamwork, rather than needing to outplay him, something that most immobile adcs can't do anyways. (although allowing you to flash his leap would be nice). Having an assassin that is less about outplays and more about avoiding and keeping track of him would be an interesting way to balance an assassin that would feel distinct to other assassins, such as Zed, who focus on individual outplays. It would also fit with his theme as a hunter. When have you ever seen the deer turn around and kill the hunter? Unless your hunting something like a bear (a fed enemy maybe?), then its more about stalking and tracking your pray, rather than actually fighting them.

Here's my thoughts on changes to him that keep some parts of his current and new kit

Passive: Let enemies flash the jump, maybe change bonetooth?

Q: Revert

W: Change the basic form to be more generally useful and less situationally super useful and generally crap. The armor from the old one was fine, but a flat heal would also be decent. If it turns out to be unbalanceable, then a full revert can be in place as well.

E: Possibly remove the cast time. Rengar can't insta snare anymore with the ferocity changes.

R: Remove the crit, replace it with extra ferocity stacks similar to what happened when you used your ultimate on old rengar.

Some other notes: This new kit would still have lower burst than before, since you cannot start the combo with an emp Q as you could before. You have to land the standard Q before using the empowered one. You also can't instantly snare someone from the jump as you could before.

10 Comments

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

You know what's nice? Not being insta-snared, insta-gibbed by autos, or having Rengar have half a Rammus W as a passive on his W. While the current state of Rengar might not be the most balanced, it is far better to play against.

Doozku2 votes

I don't think a full revert is needed. They keep the ferocity changes and he can't insta snare you. Arguably, his new W is worse than his old design wise. I believe there could be a better ability than either (maybe a flat heal) but the current gray health W is just bad and doesn't function properly with Rengar's kit. Also there isn't a difference him insta-gibbing you with autos or Q's if your an immobile adc or mage (his primary targets), since they will both kill you just as fast.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Old Rengar could ult, jump, empowered auto, all in the space of about a second. New Rengar can ult, jump, empowered Q, which takes a bit longer. This time-frame is when you, as an immobile mage, can stun Rengar, or as an ADC, CC or flash away.

Doozku2 votes

Old Rengar would never kill you with his ult, jump, empowered auto unless he was fed. He'd have to do a triple Q combo to kill you, which took more skill and was about as long as it is now. New Rengar can kill you with just R crit and bola if he's fed as assassin, or just straight up survive your CC as bruiser Rengar and chase you down. Did I mention he gets to build bruiser now? He also gets his emp spell which he can use to just stun you if you flash away, or cc cleanse you if you stun him (and not every adc has a stun). You know what else he gets now? AOE damage, which is something that riot tried to remove or reduce with this update (see Talon). His actual combo is about the same speed as before, atleast if executed properly. Here's a video on his combo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYzuMYzbUGI&t=14s&ab_channel=Hunter

IMO Rengar counterplay shouldn't even be about outplaying him when he jumps you, like any other assassin or diver. It should be based around warding and stopping him from actually getting onto the ADC. If you are splitting bot to clear a wave, and the enemy Rengar is MIA, that should be a guaranteed death for you, since you are making a massive mistake. That's one of the main reasons I like this rework, riot starting adding more mechanics to push him to an asssassin countered by vision, decision making, and map control, rather than one focused on mechanical outplays. On the other hand, he should be fairly easily denied if the enemy team is competent. Of course in bronze 2 I don't expect anyone to actually use vision wards, so no wonder why Rengar felt so powerful for you.

flomper3 votes

{quoted}

Old Rengar could ult, jump, empowered auto, all in the space of about a second. New Rengar can ult, jump, empowered Q, which takes a bit longer. This time-frame is when you, as an immobile mage, can stun Rengar, or as an ADC, CC or flash away.

New Rengar if full ad can one shot some one with just ult and tiamat his q at this point is just extra. The only counter play the rework added was the changed indicator on ult which could have just been added on old rengar

LordGeovanni2 votes

new rengar does his full combo no ult in the same time previous rengar took to do his ult qq combo not to mention aoe rip teams at least with old rengar you were sure one one person was going down at a time and a full half circle in front of you isnt much of a skill shot

Doozku2 votes
flomper2 votes

{quoted}

You know what's nice? Not being insta-snared, insta-gibbed by autos, or having Rengar have half a Rammus W as a passive on his W. While the current state of Rengar might not be the most balanced, it is far better to play against.

You are the first person I have ever met that called Rengar's old w op, like have you even seen his W? That's balanced to you? None of these things even overlap either. If rengar kills you instantly he went full damage and his W shouldn't be a problem. If Rengar's w is an issue then he went tank which means he can't oneshot you. If rengar insta snares you that means you aren't dying instantly and rengar is either A: doing his job and picking off an adc who is some where they shouldn't be in any game, or B: rengar didnt kill you instantly and he is stuck in the enemy team and most likely dead.

This isnt really reliable counter play but Rengar's empowered e literally bugged 50% of the time and he couldn't even cast it. If you can't beat a champion that half the time couldn't even use his abilities you seriously need to learn counterplay.

ChNx1 votes

{quoted}

You know what's nice? Not being insta-snared, insta-gibbed by autos, or having Rengar have half a Rammus W as a passive on his W. While the current state of Rengar might not be the most balanced, it is far better to play against.

in case you were wondering where your initial downvotes came from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rengarmains/comments/5wsc2p/thoughts_about_rengar_mainly_his_q/

a bunch of the Rengar "mains" that wanted a revert came here. Vocal minority for sure.

The Four Kings2 votes

If Rengar's Q was the only thing reverted I would be happy with just that.

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