Attack speed slows don't effect jhin correctly

LatetotheRace·Aug 24, 2018·4 votes·2,208 views

Like at all. I used wither on Jhin with a friend to kind of check these interactions. At 209 AD wither reduced my AD by a total of 15 at level 16 with only attack speed derived AD. Furthermore, it doesn't effect his base attack speed, and besides the slow does little to no real DPS decrease what so ever. In general all attack speed slows on Jhin do are reduce his dp by close to 5%-10% tops, whereas they distinctly reduce all other marksmen's DPS by a flat 15 (think ) all the way to 30%+ (think wither)

If you want an actual way to weaken Jhin a bit, fix his horrendously inconsistent interaction here.

23 Comments

5050BSAug 24, 20184 votes

Its because Jhin is broken. They cant balance him because all his stats are calculated "Differently" then every other champ.

Eery new AD item can be fine on everyone else and be batsh#t crazy on Jhin

D357R0Y3RAug 24, 20184 votes

attack speed slow reduces his %bonus ad

not his flat ad

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

it reduced his bonus AD by a maximum of about 20% with both frozen heart and max lvl 5 wither. as opposed to a dps loss of 40%~ on a regular marksman.

OverlordIcyMar 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

it reduced his bonus AD by a maximum of about 20% with both frozen heart and max lvl 5 wither. as opposed to a dps loss of 40%~ on a regular marksman.

This is intentional. Jhin's Actual Attack Speed, including Attack Speed gained per level is all considered Base Attack Speed and is fixed, it cannot be increased or decreased by any means whatsoever. As Jhin's Passive converts both his Critical Strike Chance and Bonus Attack Speed to percent Bonus AD, just as increasing your Attack Speed doesn't increase the rate at which you fire Auto Attacks out but rather grants you more Bonus AD, decreasing his Attack Speed will reduce the amount that the Percentage AD Boost is for the duration of the slow. Jhin passively gains (4%-44% Based on Level) + (0.4% Per 1% Critical Strike Chance) + (0.25% Per 1% Bonus Attack Speed)

Because of this a level 18 Jhin would have 136.9 Base AD + 80 AD from Infinity Edge +65 Essence Reaver = 281.9 Total AD With Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv, Jhin would have 100% Crit, which would make his passive Give 40% more Bonus AD Ratio. (0.4 * 100 = 40%)

Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv give +30% Attack Speed and +40% Attack Speed respectively, making his passive give an extra 17.5% Bonus AD Ratio. (0.25 * 70 = 17.5%)

With that Jhin would gain +101.5% Bonus AD meaning his 281.9 * 2.015 = ~568.02 AD Post Buff.

If you reduced his Attack Speed let's say through Nasus Wither, Wither Cripples by 47.5% Attack Speed, which would reduce Jhin's 70% Attack Speed down to 22.5% Attack Speed. Now let's calculate his Passive AD Boost: 44%(Base Level 18) + 40%(100% Crit 0.4) +5.625%(22.5% Attack Speed 0.25) = 89.625% Bonus AD leaving his Total AD Post Passive Buff at 371.525 Total AD.

Now this is with him having AD from other sources than just attack speed as he only gets 1/4th the attack speed converted into Bonus AD Percentage meaning the more AD he has, the more it's increased by, so doing your testing with only getting AD from Attack Speed Items won't reduce his Attack Damage by much as he would only be boosting his Base 136.9 AD with his Passive. Let's do one last quick Calculation with 6 Nashor's Tooth as it gives 0 AD and the most Attack Speed.(50% Per)

So 44%(Base Level 18) + 0(0% Crit Chance) + 75%(300 0.25) = 119% Bonus AD So his Base 136.9 2.19 = 299.811 Total AD If we Wither: 44%(Base Level 18) + 0(0% Crit Chance) + 63.125%([300% Atk Spd - 47.5%(Wither)] = 252.5 0.25 = 63.125%) = 107.125% Bonus AD Ratio With his Base 136.9 2.07125 = 283.554125 Total AD.

So when doing Wither Calculations on Jhin, go with his regular build to test what it's reduced by as he gets very little Bonus AD if you stack only Attack Speed as it's a Percentage Buff to his Current Total AD so the less AD he has Pre-Passive Buff, the Less it gets Boosted By Post Passive Buff and the Less it gets Reduced by from Attack Speed Slows.

With that being said, a Proper Jhin Build gets a DRASTIC Damage Loss from Attack Speed Slows since it's reducing his Percentage Buff(Think of Atk Speed Slowing Jhin like temporarily removing an Infernal Drake (+10% Bonus AD) from Jhin) As Nasus' Wither Basically Reduces Jhin's Attack Damage by 11.875%.(47.5%[Wither] * 0.25(Jhin's Atk Spd to AD Ratio) = 11.875% Bonus AD]

Think about it, Infernal Dragons Scale better the later in the game you are, because it's a percentage boost(10%/17%/24% Bonus AD/AP) because you have more items and levels giving you more stats(AD/AP) to be boosted by the percentage. Jhin's Passive "Every Moment Matters" is BASICALLY a free Infernal Drake Buff for him that instead of scaling with how many Infernal Drakes he has, scaled with how much Critical Strike Chance and Bonus Attack Speed he has from Items and Runes. Basically therefore it becomes stronger and stronger as it scaled into the game when he has more items and levels giving him more and more AD to be boosted. It's actually a really awesome passive in my personally opinion, as he has a reload mechanic like Graves, but instead of his reload speed scaling with Attack Speed, his is fixed, has twice as many shots per "Clip" and in turn converts Bonus Attack Speed into Bonus AD to account for the fact that it's otherwise a useless stat on him entirely and his general builds use items that have both Critical Strike Chance and Attack Speed on them as he is Crit Based with the other parts of his passive and otherwise those items would be way less Gold Efficient on him and he would be wasting Gold on stats that gave him literally zero use. I find it quite unique and interesting, especially as far as ADCs go since for the most part they all work relatively the same way with very slight variations, but he is a lot more unique this way when compared to other AD Carries that are currently in the game. It's kinda the same way with Kai'Sa and that's why they're both one of my most favorite Marksmen in the game, along with Jinx.

HayaishiAug 24, 20183 votes

A champion who does low DPS is not affected as hard as all the other champions by attack speed slows.... shocking.

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

the attack speed slow not only ignores his (let's say base) attack speed, but doesn't effect his bonus Attack speed correctly either. That's all I'm saying

Automated RivenAug 24, 20182 votes

First off, attack speed slows won't effect jhins base stats because they will reduce the bonus attack speed. Unless, however, jhin has no bonus attackspeed. Then it should effect base.

Jhin also gains 25% of his bonus attack speed as ad. So that means if he has 100% attack speed he gets 25 ad. (I think is how that works) so if he is withered which reduces attack speed by 50% then he should lose about 12 ad. (half the bonus) however this is mostly from reading his incredibly complicated passive and guess work based on how the game works.

How much attackspeed did you get to get 209 dmaage?

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

I believe at that time I had over 140% attack speed with 2 item 3115 and a item 3101 Provided, this was purely in a testing format. With no bonus AD or Crit chance, purely AS to test how it works, and it didn't. At level 16 Jhin will have 125 AD, and I had up to 209 purely from AS. Which would stand to reason, I would assume, that I had 336% bonus attack speed... wow. That being said, I should have lost significantly more bonus AD down to say 171.2 instead of 186~ The math is purely wrong, and that's all I want people to know.

Automated RivenAug 24, 20181 votes

And I did look it up. Attack speed slows should slow jhins base attack speed. So he should lose both the ad and the as

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

He doesn't attack any slower after being AS slowed, he simply loses very small amounts of AD. That's it.

AnAggravatedPimpAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't attack any slower after being AS slowed, he simply loses very small amounts of AD. That's it.

Because he has a set rate of attack. Jhin can only attack at the same pace no matter what, which means that his dps is lower than most champs until he gets x amounts of AD. He can't gain or lose attack speed, only AD which as an ADC is p bad

Ok sure but whyAug 24, 20182 votes

That would only affect the bonus AD Jhin gets that scales with bonus attack speed

So if Jhin has 400 AD at full crit and level 18, and he started off with 200 AD, he'd get 80 from base stats, 80 from crit, and 40 from bonus attack speed

So if you cut Jhin's bonus attack speed in HALF from something like Wither, he'd lose 50% of the 40 AD he got from his attack speed alone, taking him from 400 to 380

If Jhin gets a item 3095 item 3087 item 3094 , and we assume he started off with 200 AD, he'd get 45 AD from his attack speed, 48 AD from his crit, and maybe around 50 from his base stats, bringing him up to 343 AD

Halving his bonus attack speed would bring him from 343 AD to around 320 AD

Mathematically speaking, it is working on Jhin correctly

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

I implore you experiment with this yourself. it will become painfully obvious that you have no idea how this works. And let me tell you, it simply doesn't calculate correctly at all.

KlydeFrogAug 24, 20181 votes

Because attack speed isnt really built and used on him

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

And that matters because? That's no reason the math shouldn't apply correctly, which it doesn't. I've tested this with a friend while using FULL attack speed jhin. (Think 6 nashor's tooth(s?) as to have max attack speed with no bonus ad/crit)

VoraciousXAug 24, 20181 votes

Wither will not do much on Jhin because his attack speed is converted into AD. His attack speed isn't counted as attack speed, but instead attack damage. This is why wither will not do much to Jhin. You can't reduce his AD by reducing his attack speed, because he doesn't have attack speed(outside of his base attack speed). A maximum cripple will slow Jhin's attack speed by 47.5%, and at level 18 Jhin has 94 or so attack speed iirc. This would mean his attack speed will(or should) be reduced to 49.35. Jhin's passive only applies to bonus attack speed as well, meaning that if you wither him, you won't be reducing his AD(or shouldn't). Of course I could be entirely wrong about Wither and perhaps the cripple only works on bonus attack speed as well.

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

test it yourself bro. But I will tell you it ignores his "base" attack speed that scales up with his level, and doesn't correctly effect his bonus attack speed, and results in very little loss in AD. Futhermore, it barely negates his DPS by essentially everything, in the end with frozen heart and lvl 5 wither, you'll see a drop in maybe 30 AD on a full attack speed build.

VoraciousXAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

test it yourself bro. But I will tell you it ignores his "base" attack speed that scales up with his level, and doesn't correctly effect his bonus attack speed, and results in very little loss in AD. Futhermore, it barely negates his DPS by essentially everything, in the end with frozen heart and lvl 5 wither, you'll see a drop in maybe 30 AD on a full attack speed build.

Were you using Celerity? If so this could be why you were losing AD, because less attack speed = less movement speed = less AD. Jhin should not lose AD from loss of bonus attack speed though because he doesn't actually lose attack speed(he never had any to begin with). The only way a wither would lower his AD that I can think of is if it lowered his base attack speed, in turn lowering the movement speed buff from his passive, which lowered the AD you got from Celerity. If you're thinking that an attack speed slow should reduce Jhin's AD, you're wrong, because wither lowers attack speed, and he doesn't have any extra attack speed. Think of building full attack speed on Jhin as building full AD, because that's basically what you're doing. Would Wither reduce the AD of a full AD Riven? No.

As for testing, I don't have anyone to test it with atm, but I can give you my results for testing with and without Celerity: 6 Wit's End's, 304 AD on Jhin without Celerity. 6 Wit's End's with Celerity + passive: 333 AD. So if you were checking when Celerity was going off, you likely lost the 30 AD from that, not the Wither.

LatetotheRaceAug 25, 20181 votes

No, I did not have celerity. I went full attack speed with lethal tempo and inspiration for the 18% AS. So unfortunately that was not the case.

OverlordIcyMar 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, I did not have celerity. I went full attack speed with lethal tempo and inspiration for the 18% AS. So unfortunately that was not the case.

This is because you didn't build any AD and didn't further test it with a proper Jhin Build with AD. His Attack Speed to AD Ratio is VERY low and is only boosting his Base AD by a Percentage since you built zero AD. If you build AD and Attack Speed Items(preferably with Crit Chance) like a standard build, you would see MUCH more drastic AD Loss upon slowing his attack speed. But then it's only quartered in loss as Wither being a 47.5% Atk Spd Slow would only reduce his AD by 11.875% AD Boost.

I implore you to thoroughly read my post above and then retry your testing with your friend with a different build that has AD in it. Try it with 6 Nashor's Tooth, then with 1 Infinity Edge and 5 Nashor's Tooth and then try it with 5 Infinity Edge and 1 Nashor's Tooth and then Try it with a proper Jhin build like 1 Infinity Edge, 1 Rapid Firecannon, 1 Statikk Shiv, 1 Essence Reaver, 1 Berserker's Greaves and 1 Bloodthirster and reply back to me with your calculations.