Can Riot stop balancing every champion around a single keystone?

TotalJerk·May 8, 2019·79 votes·19,076 views

Riot intended that player pick runes to "suit their playstyle" but now it seems that whenever a poorly designed rune has too much synergy with one champion, that champion is nerfed around the rune instead of the rune getting reworked. These champions end up being so innately weak that they are absolutely dependent on the particular rune and unable to use most other runes optimally. As it stands a large chunk of champions in the game right now use one or two keystones every single game. Why even bother giving players a choice if there's only going to be one correct choice?

74 Comments

Hypochondria9May 8, 201933 votes

Keystones were a colossal blunder, they have caused nothing but issues since their inception. Runes reforged are total garbage relative to the old runes+masteries.

MalignMetalMay 8, 201926 votes

Runes reforged should be 100% removed.

At which point you can actually balance the champions as they are based on thier interaction with items.

As it is Runes reforged is just something to take the blame for poor balancing.

Chembaron YamadaMay 8, 201923 votes

Honestly, I don't think it is possible to do it in a different way.

We are talking about a game with almost 150 different champions with differently working abilities. These kits will always synergize better with one keystone than with the others, you can't balance every keystone to work equally on every champion.

PhDs NutsMay 8, 201952 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaZLcP6v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-08T14:03:56.813+0000)

Honestly, I don't think it is possible to do it in a different way.

#deletekeystones

There are too many champions to have one equal source of power for all of them. Just look at how hard items are to balance, even before keystones. Imagine making every assassin passive Zed's passive. A lot of assassins are worse, a couple are good, Zed is perfect. That's keystones. One champion will always be better with it. It's just another unnecessary variable that makes balance impossible and adds unseen strength to every champion.

Delete keystones and balance the champions.

KillerVacaMay 8, 20197 votes

Maybe runes should not only add strenght but they should also inflict a penalty. For instance, aftershock on liss was too op, so they nerfed the ap ratio on aftershock and that hurt maokai, amumu, etc, which i would think were the main focus for that rune. So, what if picking that rune hurt your dmg as a %? You could still use it on liss but you'd need to commit to tanky/utility more heavily for that niche.

This might lead to other issues but would simplify balancing around runes and keep the cool choices around them.

EleshakaiMay 9, 20193 votes

If we delete keystones, then we have to balance champs around items. Or summoner spells. Do we just delete those too?

OHminusMay 9, 201910 votes

Classic "slippery slope" fallacy right here. Look at any season before season 5. There were a couple of instances of items being broken on certain champions, but nothing to the extent runes are causing a problem for the game right now. Champs WERE balanced around items and it seemed to work.

Also, every champ gets 2 summoner spells, and multiple champs are balanced around flash.

I really hope that next time you comment on these boards you offer some meaningful discussion, or at least good at meming. I see you posting this comment everywhere around this thread offering NO reasoning to back up your argument at all (which, by the way, is hard to understand. Are you arguing for runes reforged or are you just trying to be an asshole?)

EleshakaiMay 9, 20192 votes

It seemed to work because they had YEARS TO BALANCE IT. They've had to remove several items over time because one or two champs couldn't be balanced around them. They had to make changes to champs because of items. But it mostly worked, because they had the time to get to that state.

Give them time to balance around runes and it'll hit the same point. They add something new, and it's not perfect immediately, and everyone panics.

(Also, I posted it twice. Not 'everywhere' - stop exaggerating and put some logic into your own posts before asking it of others)

SaezioMay 9, 20195 votes

time? they ve had 2 years+ since Runes Reforged was created. And nothing has been done in a direction that will make runes overall less relevant. What item was ever removed because it was too good on a champ in seasons 1-3? I can't remember any

Flawless FetusMay 8, 201913 votes

I agree. This is why runes reforged was a giant mistake.

AndrewiusMay 9, 20191 votes

Easy solution: remove keystones and runes reforfed generally. They caused more problems than they brought any benefits.

Wizard BlazeMay 8, 201914 votes

BIG KOREAN PRO PLAYS BRO

Rito Games

BigFBearMay 8, 201911 votes

Just delete Runes completely!

And stay with some stat shards, add some more like movespeed etc. (like old runes). Should be good enough.

FilDaFunkMay 8, 20197 votes

I don't see riot's logic with runes anymore.

How can there be a choice of runes for each champion if they are balance with the assumption that they take a certain keystone?

Ambitious MinnowMay 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't see riot's logic with runes anymore.

How can there be a choice of runes for each champion if they are balance with the assumption that they take a certain keystone?

Riot manages metagame. Which by definition it should not be managing.

HotarµMay 8, 20196 votes

that champion is nerfed around the rune instead of the rune getting reworked.

So we should nerf the rune and indirectly all the other champions who depend on it?

I agree that nerfing a champion isn't a good idea but it's the lesser of two evils. Do you nerf a champion who's too strong with a rune or indirectly nerf the other 20+ champions who use it?

Balancing every keystone's interaction with every single champion is almost impossible since we have 140+ champions at the moment.

Weiss GuertenaMay 8, 201926 votes

These runes were just a mistake. As you said, you can't balance a rune around all champions that use it so you have to change champions themselves. Then you nerf a champion who is too strong with a rune so they are forced into taking the said rune in order to compete. And then, what's the point of having a rune system? You will take the same keystone 100% of the time and + whatever minor runes don't suck on your champion and that's it. No point in having choices at all.

EleshakaiMay 9, 20193 votes

So should we also just delete items as well? What about summoner spells?

BigFBearMay 9, 20193 votes

You don't get it dude. Go home pls.

EleshakaiMay 9, 20191 votes

I do get it. You're panicing because Riot, immediately upon implementing their new system, didn't have it perfect and now have a bit of growing pains. New systems take time to really be incorporated properly into the greater whole. And, much like items, there will be cases where champs will need to be adjusted because of a specific item.

MuffledGarbageMay 9, 20192 votes

"Runes Reforged" Since it's release has just been "The Mastery System" in addition to "Rune systems" From before when Runes Reforged existed.

Riot took the Mastery System, bumped up all the abilities of every single mastery, then dumped all the masteries into different categories, lastly Riot preceded to pretend the Runes Reforged System was entirely it's own original thing.

You got tricked by Riot

EleshakaiMay 10, 20191 votes

no, I didn't get tricked. This is why I'm saying it's not really a problem. It's been there forever, they just streamlined the system a bit... it's not really new, it's not really that much stronger... it's just different. But because they made a major change to the 'shape' of it, it takes time to balance it.

MuffledGarbageMay 10, 20192 votes

If you didn't get tricked by Riot into thinking that Runes reforged is a new system then why haven't you mentioned how the Mastery system worked and how it was "unbalanced" while also HEAVILY inferring that Runes Reforged is a good/better system?

EleshakaiMay 10, 20191 votes

because Runes Reforged is FACTUALLY better than Runes/Masteries. Runes had a weird 'unlocking power' element that forced people to have a disadvantage beyond skill if they hadn't played as much. Both runes and masteries were over-encumbered with non-decisions and 'wrong answers'.

Runes Reforged still has a long ways to go. But it's streamlined, has no 'power unlock' element, and still contains about as much REAL choice as the old system did, just compressed into fewer, more meaningful decisions. There are still some wrong answers, but not as many... and there's a lot more potential for the system to be good long-term.

It's nowhere near there yet. It still needs work. But... they're working on it. We see changes ot runes every ~2 patches. And it can and will get better. So yes... I consider it an upgrade over the old system, in every possible way... even in its current flawed, 'work in progress' state.

PhDs NutsMay 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

because Runes Reforged is FACTUALLY better than Runes/Masteries. Runes had a weird 'unlocking power' element that forced people to have a disadvantage beyond skill if they hadn't played as much. Both runes and masteries were over-encumbered with non-decisions and 'wrong answers'.

Runes Reforged still has a long ways to go. But it's streamlined, has no 'power unlock' element, and still contains about as much REAL choice as the old system did, just compressed into fewer, more meaningful decisions. There are still some wrong answers, but not as many... and there's a lot more potential for the system to be good long-term.

It's nowhere near there yet. It still needs work. But... they're working on it. We see changes ot runes every ~2 patches. And it can and will get better. So yes... I consider it an upgrade over the old system, in every possible way... even in its current flawed, 'work in progress' state.

The only thing that's better to me is having it unlocked level 1. Keystones are a nightmare, and nearly every defensive or utility option has a damage component tacked onto it.

BigFBearMay 8, 20196 votes

Good example atm:

New Aftershock Keystone. Since last patch the 5 best Junglers in Plat+ are Aftershock users:

Amumu Rammus Nunu Volibear https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champions/

Ofc Rammus went totally op with this Rune, like expected. He currently rank 1 in Master+ and sits on a 57,5% winrate.

He can hit the 150 Resistance cap from Aftershock in the first 20 minutes with his builds easily.

And I bet they will nerf Rammus instead of fixing Aftershock. Aftershock rework was a good idea but they did it wrong connecting it with bonus resistance again. Champs like Rammus abuse that. Also it excludes many Bruiser/Juggernaut builds which much HP but not so much Armor.

For example those Items:

item 1401 item 3083 item 3800 item 3022 item 3053

They should have make Aftershock related to HP not to bonus resistance. Not every Bruiser/Jugg builds lots of armor. But EVERY tank/Bruiser/juggernaut/ builds HP. It would include more builds and not force you to adjust your build to a fucking keystone.

The Yetii RiderMay 8, 20194 votes

It's not supposed to be a bruiser keystone, it's supposed to be a tank keystone.

The entire reason Courage of the Colossus was replaced with Aftershock was because scaling it off Health made it too good.

BigFBearMay 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaZLcP6v,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-05-08T21:08:27.095+0000)

It's not supposed to be a bruiser keystone, it's supposed to be a tank keystone.

Source? Riot always said that the Resolve tree should not exclusively for tanks but for all champs who wanna play deff/sustain.

Tell me what Keystone I should take now when i play Voli Jungle. He is a Juggernaut who deserves a rune like Aftershock. He is not Lissandra. He has many good builds where he doesn't build much armor. If you start with Righteous Glory after Cinderhulk and then go Warmogs you only have 30 bonus Armor that counts for Aftershock. (and by that time it's 25 minutes and game is almost over). Compare that to almost all Rammus builds. Why does he deserves Aftershock more than a Voli?

What other Keystone shall i take as a Resolve Jungler? Grasp? Doesn't make sense in Jungle. Guardian? Lawl!

I HAVE to pick Aftershock because it's the only choice they left over for Resolve Junglers. And then I get punished for building my favorite builds? "BUILD ARMOR! WE DEMAND IT!"

The Resolve tree sucks ass because he is so niche in many ways. If they wanna have so much niche runes they should add a fourth Keystone at least! Like their beloved and favorite Trees Precision and Domination!

I would LOVE to take another sustain Keystone that works in Jungle!

The entire reason Courage of the Colossus was replaced with Aftershock was because scaling it off Health made it too good.

Then nerf the scaling with HP until it's balanced but don't connect it to bonus Armor.

Now we have 3 Keystones in Resolve:

One is for pure tanks (Aftershock)
One is for Botlane-Supporter (Guardian)
One is for Toplane (Grasp)

Great. Really great!

Lo4dingMay 9, 20191 votes

I cant help it, but you are delusional. Where is stated that you need to pick resolve? You can easly play voli with predator+resolve or with HailOfBlades+resolve if you feel like it.

Yes there is small difference in power within different runes and different champions, however they are not because of keystones. Waterwalking is strong on junglers but not so much on supports, ravenous hunter is pretty strong on heavy ability damage dealer but someone like caitlin or jinx would not benefit from it that much.

You mentioned Vi. You can play Hail of Blades, Electro, Aftershoct, Phase rush etc etc. All keystones give you strength in different aspect of play, but they are not mandatory.

Some keystones are picked often on specific champions because they are easiest to benefit from, not because they are strongest.

You wanted sustain rune. You got Ravenous hunter or overshield. You need to understand that difference in power for different runes and keystones are pretty minor.

To be honest, you can play any champion with at least 3 keystones.

BigFBearMay 9, 20191 votes

Because Grasp is a Lane Keystone. It make sense if you trade a lot against an enemy champion (no CD). It's just not as effective in Jungle. There is a reason why it has a 0,7% pickrate in Jungle.

Predator is shit on Voli. Maybe it was a thing in the past but no high Elo Voli in Jungle pick it. Voli needs the sustain. Domination tree isn't really made for him. Its on 50% winrate atm while Voli in general is on 54%. Same goes for Conqueror. And who the fuck plays Galcial Augment on Voli??

BigFBearMay 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

To be honest, you can play any champion with at least 3 keystones.

No you can't. Maybe in low Elo.

And 5-7% aren't "minor" differences. If you wanna compete in higher Elos you need to pick that one rune (at least on 90% of the champions).

Predator is shit on Voli. Maybe it was a thing a year ago.

There is a reason why there are only Resolve Jungle Volis in Master+

The only(!) Grandmaster Jungle Voli with something else (Conqueror) was LTWazer and he dropped back to Dia 2 in the last months by not changing to Resolve.

If you check top servers like Korea you can see that Hail of Blades has worse winrate in Plat+.

Stop pretend Runes Reforge gives you choices. It doesn't.

Lo4dingMay 13, 20191 votes

I am not saying that I agree with you. But even if there are only two viable keystones for volibear jungle in high elo. This is today and can change by any moment when some korean superstar found out that volibear is broken with Press the attack. And everybody will be playing that instead of aftershock.

Next thing is that there is about 140 champions that needs to utilize same keystones as your volibear. Some build take some some keystone and some champions is "not that good" with other keystones and thats perfectly fine. IMHO reforged runes are best thing they have done in recent years.

Do you want to have some diversity in play? STOP PLAYING ONE CHAMPION IN 350 GAMES IN ROW.

The Yetii RiderMay 9, 20191 votes

Why doesn't Grasp work in the jungle, exactly?

Volibear can function with Predator, Glacial Augment, Conqueror and Aftershock just fine. He gets less armor than champs who build armor, but that's okay because he has more effective health with his higher HP pool if he builds health.

MannnyMay 8, 20193 votes

If they were to rework the rune it would simply cause more problems. More than one champion uses a keystone, and changing the entire keystone because one champion abuses it causes problems for the rest of the champions who used it.

The Highest NoonMay 8, 20192 votes

I thought that the entire purpose of Keystones was to give champions gameplay options. Hell, this entire game is focused around champions having varied gameplay options. It's why they don't have enforced itemization for champions like some other MOBAs do. It's why you can build AP Talon and Tank Annie. If a champion is balanced around a single set of Runes, that's a conceptual suicide.

SanKakUMay 8, 20197 votes

Talon doesn't have any AP scaling. It would be more efficient to buy AD items on champions with no AD scaling on their abilities than it would be to buy any AP items on Talon. Annie has tank scaling on her E. You're trying to compare something that won't happen(what, you want him to rely on Nashor's? Protobelt?) in a serious game to something that is an incredibly legitimate build for a champion.

The Highest NoonMay 8, 20191 votes

You missed the point of my response and this post entirely.

SanKakUMay 8, 20196 votes

I'm afraid I didn't. In Dota 2 for example, they have the hero attribute system of strength, agility and intelligence, and as such, any hero can actually buy whatever. There's no such thing as Zed item 3042 in that game. So the main point of your comment is irrelevant because it is wrong.

The Highest NoonMay 8, 20191 votes

According to this very response from you, you missed the point. Thank you for making that much very clear.

MuffledGarbageMay 10, 20191 votes

if SanKakU missed the point then what was the point?

The Highest NoonMay 10, 20191 votes

Riot intended that player pick runes to "suit their playstyle" but now it seems that whenever a poorly designed rune has too much synergy with one champion, that champion is nerfed around the rune instead of the rune getting reworked. These champions end up being so innately weak that they are absolutely dependent on the particular rune and unable to use most other runes optimally. As it stands a large chunk of champions in the game right now use one or two keystones every single game. Why even bother giving players a choice if there's only going to be one correct choice?

That was the point. Read.

MuffledGarbageMay 11, 20191 votes

That was the OP's point, not yours.

Stop piggybacking off the OP fam.

The Highest NoonMay 11, 20191 votes

You're arguing on someone's post, but don't want to argue against the point that they made?

Okay...

FlashesMay 8, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QaZLcP6v,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-08T15:10:44.640+0000)

I thought that the entire purpose of Keystones was to give champions gameplay options. Hell, this entire game is focused around champions having varied gameplay options. It's why they don't have enforced itemization for champions like some other MOBAs do. It's why you can build AP Talon and Tank Annie. If a champion is balanced around a single set of Runes, that's a conceptual suicide.

Yeah but what ended up happening was that it limited the options to a single Rune, because every other rune is suboptimal, and you're missing out on SOMETHING if you choose another rune. Then Riot balances around that Rune alone, further constricting that champion into that one role.

The Highest NoonMay 8, 20191 votes

And so we come to the current issue. Question is, what's the solution?

Metal JannaMay 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Counterpoint to OP: There are champions that don't have one designated keystone, and those champions are free to use any of them, depending on what the player values the most in this matchup. Example: Orianna She can take almost any keystone. Most tend to pick Aery because it's the most generically useful, but i've found some use for Comet, Electrocute, Hail of Blades, Glacial, Guardian, and Klepto on her. You could probably get some use out of the Precision keystones if you were playing her Tilterella style.

If you pick a stick to 'em and auto type champ it's natural that only the few runes that enhance that playstyle will synergize well, but if you're picking something with a versatile selection of tactics then there will be more viable runes.

Personally, i'd like to see all runes weakened just a tiny bit, particularly in damage. Too much damage in this game right now. But removed? Hell naw. I like being able to take non-generic runes to tune my power for a particular matchup.

Best Ekko NAMay 9, 20192 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fuERM9cY-some-suggestions-on-improving-the-current-runes

It's not that hard to balance the ~~runes~~ keystones. The problem with the ~~runes~~ keystones is that they deal damage, if you remove the damage from all of them, most of them become fairly balanced. The fact is, the game doesn't need additional damage scalings or even damage on ~~runes~~ keystones at all and would be way better off without it.

jng dif victimMay 9, 20192 votes

u know what is funny. when u read patch notes and u see item 3004 buffed by 10 damage . well the only champion that can use that item is Ezreal why dont u just give him 10 more damage instead ? LUL

AlienPrimateMay 8, 20191 votes

This is why one more reason to love Taric. He can use guardian, aftershock, kleptomancy, glacial augmant, and press the attack well and also make use of others like predator, grasp of the undying, and summon aery.

TotalJerkMay 8, 20194 votes

Yeah and Riot seems to really fucking hate it when a champion has too much flexibility. They want everyone to play a champion the same way, it seems. Whenever a champion gets OP at one thing, they always hit the alternatives with the logic that having other playstyles to fall back on when that style isn't ideal makes them too safe.