Weekly reminder that Duskblade should be looked at in S8

EinarUlfar·Oct 31, 2017·47 votes·2,896 views

Costs the same as Youmuu's, and yet due to the passive offers a MUCH more massive powerspike; extremely cost efficient.

Youmuu's is a great rush if you need to roam rather than desire the burst from DB, but Duskblade's spike is clearly beyond that of just "1 full item" and can often turn a matchup you've already played poorly into one you're totally dominant in; nullifying even major leads of the opposition.

I understand it helps deal with ADCs, but it was argued by Riot that it would be given a niche alongside Youmuu's so the two were debatable choices as a first-rush-item; but DB is by far the winner of the two. It also offers the invisible power that Riot so strongly preached against having as part of their game design.

P.S. I love assassins; hands-down my favorite class, but Duskblade is sucking some serious fun and variety out of AD Assassin itemization. It's honestly a total snooze-fest to see every AD and their mother build this item.

69 Comments

BlåbæretOct 31, 201721 votes

We can agree on duskblade nerfs when ADCs gets nerfed. Tristana KogMaw Xayah Twitch

SalsonOct 31, 201714 votes

I'd rather nerf Crit itemization.

Doesn't really matter which champ burst you down with item 3087 and item 3094 combo.

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 2, 20171 votes

How about... both ? all deserve a nerf unless kog.

SalsonNov 2, 20171 votes

Mostly because of shifts in the meta.

Tristana for instance has less utility than Jhin, therefore she explodes with overtuned itemization. Nerf it and she doesn't really have much base damage and utility.

The only one truly busted is Twitch.

Fisher No ChainsNov 1, 20172 votes

Exactly. I think that Duskblade is kinda OP, but AD assassins need it to do their job properly (sad, I know).

Duskblade is probably the only reason Zed and Talon can actually assassinate people; remove that in the current meta and they’ll be trash assassins (and we already have enough trashy assassins tbh).

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. I think that Duskblade is kinda OP, but AD assassins need it to do their job properly (sad, I know).

Duskblade is probably the only reason Zed and Talon can actually assassinate people; remove that in the current meta and they’ll be trash assassins (and we already have enough trashy assassins tbh).

Is it so wrong to want them to trade that utility for smaller damage numbers though?

WacingTheFindNov 1, 20171 votes

Besides Twitch and maybe Tristana (to much safety), the others are actually ok in soloQ (pro scene is a completely different thing), it's itemization as a whole that is the problem, RFC and shiv stacking (they shouldn't) and warlord's giving almost item lvls of LS for free, allowing to forfeit a LS item without consequences.

dunder killOct 31, 201711 votes

If assassins get their core item nerfed then item 3165 gets nerfed too. Fair is fair right? Both are super cost efficient and provide big early power spikes. But you're going to say thats not fair arent you? Because assassins are big meanies :(

BlåbæretNov 1, 20176 votes

{quoted}

If assassins get their core item nerfed then gets nerfed too. Fair is fair right? Both are super cost efficient and provide big early power spikes. But you're going to say thats not fair arent you? Because assassins are big meanies :(

Your analogy here is fallacy. For one, mages are not assassins. Secondly, Mages have lackluster and weak itemization, something even Riot has aknowledged. Morello has to be the way it is for that reason.

Duskblade is overpowered in itself, but because of ADCs drain tanking capabilities and due to shield stacking, it has to be the way it is for assassins to have any chance of killing an ADC. It will undoubtedly get nerfed eventually when the ADC issue has been dealt with. Morello won't get nerfed or changed until mage itemization is reworked or buffed.

All I see is a[n] <edited by mod> assassin main that can't accept assassins having an overpowered item and wants to nerf one of the weaker, unrelated classes for that reason. Sounds absurd? That's because it is.

TS MediaNov 1, 20174 votes

No one thinks mages have "weak" itemization. Don't come spouting that BS. People have stated a large majority of times that there is a lack of versatility in the mage build path as most mages build the same items with slight, if even, differences. Mages just don't have enough options. That does NOT mean they're itemization is by ANY means weak. Lackluster? Sure, in terms of variety. But don't think mages don't have good items.

LankPantsNov 1, 20175 votes

Stop and take a look at mage items for a second, we have

Good: item 3165 item 3135 , generally solid, great VS high MR, average VS low MR item 3102 , solid item, abet still weaker than Merc Scim, probably on-par with Maw but lacks the strong component

OK: item 3151 , decent item, overused due to general low quality of other items item 3157 , too long of a CD to actually break good item status for most champs item 3030 , item 3146 , item 3152 , item 3100 , all solid items for the few champs who can use them

Bellow average: item 3027 , item 3040 , can be good items on their few users, but are generally too slow to work item 3001 , not actually an AP item, but increasingly a solid item above AP items on short ranged mages

Bad: item 3285 , hella cost inefficient, weaker than it's AS and Lethality counterparts Statikk and Duskblade at all points item 3089 , Comes online too late to have any impact in the current gamestate item 3116 , has joke stats

AP items are in a really bad place right now, half of the items are just straight up bellow average or bad and tons of the other items have 2 or 3 potential users. There's truly 3 standout AP items at the moment, Morello's, Void and BV, that's why they're on every build. I'm not against nerfing these if you work on the other terrible AP items, the simple fact is that if Duskblade were to be nerfed AD assassins do have other fallbacks, if Morello's were nerfed most mages would fall completely out of meta.

Bank of VeggieNov 1, 20171 votes

Adaptive helm is not picked on mages lol, you're thinking of abyssal mask.

Mage items are not weak in the slightest, it has been acknowledged many times that the true problem lies in how cookie cutter mage builds are right now.

Mage builds lack any form of diversity. You could put 10 mages in one game, and you wouldn't be shocked to see them all have nearly the same items.

The reasoning behind this is totally opposite to what you think you know, it's because the cookie cutter items are so efficient and strong that if you don't build them you will pretty much be nothing compared to another mage that does.

They are not weak, they are actually too strong. Morellos has to be nerfed and other items changed for the role to feel better to play.

LankPantsNov 2, 20171 votes

That was meant to be Abyssal Mask, my bad on that. I'll edit the post.

PoskeNov 1, 20174 votes

{quoted}

OK: , decent item, overused due to general low quality of other items , too long of a CD to actually break good item status for most champs , , , , all solid items for the few champs who can use them

Lyandri is actually not OK. It is subpar but it builds of the only item which mages can build at 1500 gold price point Haunting guise

Zhonya is 92.73% stat efficient without its passive which is laughable. its buildpath is even more laughable. Armguard is so bad that I dont even need cigaretes to get cancer

Rushing it even against zed is mistake on 80% + midlane champs. very few can get away with that item

Gunblade is good on Akali and Katarina (Akali is a toplaner though). I swear if someone mentions ahri Or LB. IDC ABOUT GARBAGE PLAYERS WHO BUILD THEIR CHAMPIONS IN A GARBAGE WAY GLP is aurelion sol only item. So its fair to assume item is garbage (eventhough Sol is toptier)

Lichbane is fantastic on le blanc. Great on fizz Protobelt is fantastic on fizz. Great on Le blanc (well revolver more of is just the best option of 3)

But wahahahah aabout ekko. EKKO is delayed garbage of champion who will never do anything in high elo

Ludens is closer to below average tier just because it is the least trash option built of NLR. But other then you overating some "OK" items your list is good

TS MediaNov 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, if duskblade is nerfed, assassins fall back would be youmuus.

People are confusing AD items with assassin items. Assassins don't have that heavy build path most bruisers nor even ADC champions have.

List of assassin items:

item 3142 item 3147 item 3814

After that, they tap into bruiser items. Those are the ONLY 3 core items for assassins and you're complaining about mage items. Hexdrinker is a versatile AD item. If you nerf duskblade, assassins don't exactly have much of a fallback because there are no clear cut items that give major AD with added benefits for assassins. Though, I don't disagree that duskblade is too strong.

You people are over generalizing. People keep crying about AD assassins when there is legitimately only FIVE in the game. Lmfao. This game is oversaturated with mages and AP assassins.

dunder killNov 1, 20173 votes

and wants to nerf one of the weaker, unrelated classes for that reason.

and theres the stereotypical board 'mages are so weak qq' despite all the evidence saying the completely opposite. Poor mages :(

https://imgur.com/a/olQ12

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

and theres the stereotypical board 'mages are so weak qq' despite all the evidence saying the completely opposite. Poor mages :(

https://imgur.com/a/olQ12

They aren't weak. They are just weaker than assassins. You see how high up Talon is on that win rate list? And Kat right after?

If you nerf the core items of mages, they WILL be weak, because AP items are so much worse than AD.

Yorick main speaking, btw.

EDIT: lol downvotes. Sue me for pointing out that most mages can't beat THE mid assassins right now, right?

dunder killNov 1, 20173 votes

You're joking right? I put up a list of 15 champions and you point to ONE and say thats proof that assassins are better than mages? You cant be serious right? Please explain to me how your logic works. Also, how do you explain Malz and TF (both mages) having double Talon's pick rate and also higher winrates?

BUT O BOI 1 AD ASSASSIN HAz A POSITIVE WINRATE! MAGES GUTTED QQ :(

This board is a joke. This is why Riot doesnt listen to it.

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You're joking right? I put up a list of 15 champions and you point to ONE and say thats proof that assassins are better than mages? You cant be serious right? Please explain to me how your logic works. Also, how do you explain Malz and TF (both mages) having double Talon's pick rate and also higher winrates?

BUT O BOI 1 AD ASSASSIN HAz A POSITIVE WINRATE! MAGES GUTTED QQ :(

This board is a joke. This is why Riot doesnt listen to it.

You're joking, right?

I put up a reply saying mages aren't weak, but are still weaker than assassins, and mentioned that talon and kat are above most mages.

Malz and tf, sure they do better, but it's not a coincidence that Talon, an AD assassin who is most commonly played mid, preforms better than most of the mages.

Your reaction is why Riot doesn't listen to us, hun. Because you're constantly putting words in people's mouths and pretending they are overreacting.

I'm not saying gut assassins, I'm saying nerf one item so it isn't so overloaded. item 3147 is just as bad, if not worse than item 3165 .

But the reason item 3165 is so overloaded, is because mages need the stats, but have no other viable items. You can nerf it, sure, but buff the rest of the crappy AP item pool.

EDIT: Also, nice job, rage posting because I mentioned a single point about an assassin in my post, but then ignore the rest of my post.

Really makin' League proud, bud.

dunder killNov 1, 20172 votes

They are just weaker than assassins

You didnt say "TALON is stronger than MOST mages" you said "ASSASSINS are stronger than MAGES" which is an absolute fucking joke.

Then you try to comeback with a "UHHHHHH BUT WHAT I REALLY SAD IS" when its literally right there in text? Do you think we dont know how to read or what? I'm not putting anything in your mouth. Thats exactly what you said.

Explain to me how you can represent the entire Assassin class with Talon? Am I allowed to represent all mages with TF then? Thats your logic correct? Thats what you just said no?

Hurp derp ONE AD assassin has a positive winrate mid! They are better than Mages!!!!!!!!

Then you edit in the ultimate cringe "EDIT: wow getting downvoted qq!". CRINGE. Maybe you're getting downvoted because your opinion is garbage?

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

I'm just gonna ignore you now, hun. It seems you are unable to respond to people without being a child.

God forbid I try to have a conversation, and not a screaming match.

dunder killNov 1, 20172 votes

"I realize how logic makes absolutely no sense now so I'm going to pretend to walk away because I have nothing to say"

translated

Somebody Love MeNov 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

and theres the stereotypical board 'mages are so weak qq' despite all the evidence saying the completely opposite. Poor mages :(

https://imgur.com/a/olQ12

Mage itemization is weak. Mages themselves are fine, by a kit perspective. The only real reason mages are picked is because of their kits. In other words, the utility they provide.

They used to be picked as the AP carry in relation to the AD carry, but they aren't picked to carry anymore. They're picked to help the ADC carry by providing a second damage type.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 2, 20171 votes

Hey LesVitesses,

I see that you're trying to engage the argument, so I just edited out the direct insult here. Please keep it civil!

--KempyreanPirate Gameplay Warden

Morally superiorNov 1, 20177 votes

If I'm playing against Zed, and I'm very far ahead of him (30 cs over him at 10 mins, 2 kills and 1.5 lvls or smt), I know that the second that guy gets Duskblade, I can't 1v1 him anymore.

I've had multiple games where I had 3 levels on him, and 2 items. He got his Duskblade powerspike, ulted me, and guess what... I got obliterated. It feels unfair that 1 item turns the whole matchup around - while I was super far ahead the whole time, and technically still should be.

[sg-ahri-3]

kargishNov 1, 20171 votes

I think I remember seeing that exact message somewhere else

GGLineaRNov 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lady of Losses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QLRvNwlI,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-01T12:46:47.262+0000)

If I'm playing against Zed, and I'm very far ahead of him (30 cs over him at 10 mins, 2 kills and 1.5 lvls or smt), I know that the second that guy gets Duskblade, I can't 1v1 him anymore.

I've had multiple games where I had 3 levels on him, and 2 items. He got his Duskblade powerspike, ulted me, and guess what... I got obliterated. It feels unfair that 1 item turns the whole matchup around - while I was super far ahead the whole time, and technically still should be.

[sg-ahri-3]

Lethality is why I left the midlane. I'd rather just go toplane and abuse sheen.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 1, 20171 votes

If you didn't buy armor to 1v1 an AD assassin, that's your mistake.

As a mage against Zed, your build path needs to either be a straight RoA rush with some armor, or item 1029 > item 3802 > item 3191 > item 3165 > item 3157 . As soon as you have Seeker's, you'll start taking a lot less damage. Once you have Zhonya's, Zed isn't killing you for a while.

GGLineaRNov 1, 20175 votes

{quoted}

If you didn't buy armor to 1v1 an AD assassin, that's your mistake.

As a mage against Zed, your build path needs to either be a straight RoA rush with some armor, or >>>>. As soon as you have Seeker's, you'll start taking a lot less damage. Once you have Zhonya's, Zed isn't killing you for a while.

Even buying armor doesn't help much. I mean, it helps a little, but not much.

Squidward DabNov 2, 20175 votes

Mean while they buy a null mantle or hex drinker early, bam ur ap dmh hardly tickles them

HaIlMonitorNov 1, 20176 votes

Costs the same as Youmuu's, and yet due to the passive offers a MUCH more massive powerspike; extremely cost efficient.

Youmuu's is actually more cost effective if you look on the wiki in general. The issue is its a powerspike that assassins needs comes from it.

SH AzykanNov 1, 20176 votes

dont forget duskblade helping with vision, one of the main reasons I always go duskblade over yomuus atm.

Automated RivenNov 1, 20171 votes

I feel like it would make more sense for the roaming item to deny the vision. but whatever.

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QLRvNwlI,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-11-01T19:05:25.229+0000)

I feel like it would make more sense for the roaming item to deny the vision. but whatever.

There's nothing wrong with it's passive, the problem is that they get the utility, + the same damage numbers.

They aren't trading that incredibly strong utility for anything.

I mean, look at item 3057 . A very strong component with very strong build paths.

item 3025 item 3078 item 3100 are all very strong on certain champions, but when you build into one of them, you're getting a very different item, and spellblade affects them all very differently.

Now compare this to item 3147 and item 3142 There is nearly no reason or situation you would buy over, or before , because they have the EXACT same stats, and Duskblade's passive is far better than Youmuu's active.

Duskblade provides a far better utility than Youmuus, for the same price. That is the issue, now we could sit here and argue, but it won't change the fact that duskblade and youmuus need changes. differences in stats, maybe less lethality on duskblade, something, ANYTHING.

Just make these items actually compete with each other.

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 2, 20171 votes

There is nearly no reason or situation you would buy over, or before ,

Speak for yourself

SzGamer227Oct 31, 20173 votes

Within Lethality itemization, you have Duskblade for offense, Youmuu's for utility, and Edge of Night for defense. Since lethality is an offensive stat, it makes sense that people who build it lean heavily towards the most offensive option of the three as a first item.

It would be cool to see an offensive counterpart to Duskblade so that assassins can rush damage without being compelled to rush only Duskblade.

I GANK LANESNov 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Within Lethality itemization, you have Duskblade for offense, Youmuu's for utility, and Edge of Night for defense. Since lethality is an offensive stat, it makes sense that people who build it lean heavily towards the most offensive option of the three as a first item.

It would be cool to see an offensive counterpart to Duskblade so that assassins can rush damage without being compelled to rush only Duskblade.

how is youmuu's utility? lol by running fast for 6 seconds? tf

EnloctNov 1, 20173 votes

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Duskblade is the only lethality item with utility and it is the best utility item outside of sightstone.

SzGamer227Nov 1, 20172 votes

Utility is anything useful that isn't damage. (Crowd control can be excluded from utility too, though it has been included in the past.) Since movement speed is useful but doesn't damage enemies, it is a utility stat.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 1, 20172 votes

Specification: Utility is anything useful that isn't damage or a defensive stat (although utility is generally usable defensively). Tank stats aren't utility, they're tank stats.

CC is optionally included, of course.

SzGamer227Nov 1, 20171 votes

Forgot about that. Nice catch! I think the simplest way to put it is that utility is anything beneficial that doesn't directly interact with damage you deal/take. (Anything that increases your damage output or mitigates damage taken would not be utility.)

The reason I make the specification that utility cannot affect your own individual interactions with damage is in the case of shields. If you use a shield to mitigate the damage taken by an ally, that can qualify as utility, so generally anything that you can do to mitigate a teammate's damage is utility. However, a self-shield is more akin to a defensive stat than utility.

As an extension, if you increase your teammates damage output, that can also qualify as utility. Now this is where it gets interesting, because if you look at it this way, armor shreds are a hybrid offensive stat and utility, because not only are you increasing your own damage, but the damage of any teammates that damage the shredded target.

Philosophizing about utility is actually a lot more fun than I thought it would be... XD

XxDRAGONsAK47xXOct 31, 20173 votes

I mean...

A full lethality talon one shot me as a 3000 health illaoi yesterday.

I'm ok with lethality nerf :D

SzGamer227Oct 31, 201716 votes

If you build any armor at all, lethality greatly loses its value, but if you were still working on your core items, had bought Ninja Tabi, and that Talon had less than 18 kills in the first 15 minutes and wasn't just unstoppably fed, your concern is understandable.

XxDRAGONsAK47xXOct 31, 20171 votes

He was fed, I was kinda fed... I mean I was, until I left top lane :/

I had a giant's belt and a chain vest at the time of one shotting, but I had steraks also... I wasn't really mad about it, I was just surprised

AFK PushNov 1, 20173 votes

That's what happens when you don't build armor until 32 minutes in the game against a fed talon who had 3 lethality items and deaths dance by then.

Building steraks second is greedy when they have a fed ad threat like that on the enemy team, because it costs a lot more now and you will still get blown up which you can attest too.

Also, work on your farm.

kalima994Nov 1, 20172 votes

The passive should just be reworked, maybe make it an active or something that let's you do a little more damage to shields since assassins get completely fucked by shields

AerostaticusNov 1, 20172 votes

i see a lot of ap champs build item 3027 OR item 3165 . So its only fair youve got item 3147 and item 3142 for ad assassins

GGLineaRNov 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

i see a lot of ap champs build OR . So its only fair youve got and for ad assassins

Except item 3147 is far more efficient at it's job than either item 3165 or item 3027 are at theirs.

Granted, RoA is literally just a fuckin stat stick, but still. Takes 10 minutes for it to become actually worth it's investment.

Automated RivenNov 1, 20171 votes

more like takes 3 minutes to worth the investment and at 10 minutes is vastly superior to any other completed item in the game. (gold efficiency wise anyhow)

GGLineaRNov 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QLRvNwlI,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T19:02:53.837+0000)

more like takes 3 minutes to worth the investment and at 10 minutes is vastly superior to any other completed item in the game. (gold efficiency wise anyhow)

10 minutes is a long time in league. A match can be won or lost in a fraction of that time.