The List of changes to Marksmen and others that're coming to the PBE soon!
Marksman changes coming to PBE in the next couple days
HYPE.
[sg-jinx]
60 Comments
GigglesO26 votesHYPE.
[sg-jinx]
What I just read was we aren't actually nerfing marksmen, we are just changing what build they have to get.
ReshiKillim5 votesA lot less burst since IE is losing the 50% crit damage amp. And assassins are getting some very effective killing options from the changes.
3TWarrior6 voteswell, won't they then just switch to more AD items to keep their burst?
even without the 50% amp, IE is still 70 AD and there are lots of other options
GigglesO7 votesYou mean like that new item that gives attack speed and AD?
Ryusaether1 votesYeah but not everyone can afford to build that without losing on some aspect, namely crit chance and reliable movement speed.
GigglesO2 votesThe item gives 100% crit on the first hit with another 25% attack speed on that crit... yea Giving up sooooo much.
Ryusaether1 votesYeah you give up the possibility of getting consecutive crits and reliable atk speed and MS to get 1 single 100%sure crit at the start that gives you atk speed.
Mizaya1 votesIt's pretty simple--you gain upfront damage, but the longer the fight goes on the more DPS you lose compared to if you'd built for DPS.
They're currently planning to make it 3400 for 65 AD and 25% AS. That's 385 less gold value compared to current IE (Not counting the passives of either items). So plain statwise it's less efficient, in terms of passives it provides one guaranteed crit and value for that crit while IE will provide value for continuous crits with true damage.
Also not to mention that they're planning to make it currently as "If you haven't autoed for 2.5 seconds you get a crit". Making this item further less effective for continuous DPSing if it goes through as that.
AmenPerson1 votesThe AD stat changes make marksmen less oppressive to lane against. Melee champs know this frustration, but in testing, mages have benefitted significantly as well.
Just quickly quoting something from the post. It seems that they will be doing AD changes as well during the update.
ProfDrDeath1 votesThe extend of that change is also elaborated on in the same post:
Basically, they reduce Marksmen level 1 base AD by 4 and increase AD/lvl so it ends up equal by around level 8-10 (they said late laning phase, so that is my assumption for that).
What's interesting about this change is that they are basically reverting a change from preseason 6's Marksman Update, where they gave every ADC some level 1 base AD and decreased AD/lvl.
Saianna1 votesBut they really didn't need that 50% crit damage more. I mean Yea sure it was devastating, but to do burst damage all they needed is 
BestPudgeNA1 votesA lot less burst since IE is losing the 50% crit damage amp. And assassins are getting some very effective killing options from the changes.
IE is losing 50% amp which is only 20% of the ADC damage if you have 100% crit, 10% at 2 Items and 4% at just IE. But it's gaining a true damage passive. If that true damage passive ends up being 20% like conc it's actually just straight up gonna be a buff to ADCs, at 20% against a 100 Armor Player would result in a 10% damage from the passive, meaning hitting squishy champs with just Ninja Tabi's is actually gonna be buffed slightly at 1 item roughly equal at 2 items and a little worse the late game, but squishy champs are still gonna die in just a few autos. On the other hand bruisers and tanks would end up taking massively more dps from Crit ADCS. it would have to be something low like 5% for it to even come close to a nerf, which based of the rest of info is likely not going to be the case.
Riot Axes said the cost of Bork is going down 200g. ADC are getting a new keystone in domination. Last whisper is being buffed. ADCs are getting New items and better build paths. Which is weird to happen in supposed "nerfs" and based off riots past year or so of balances around the class i find it hard to believe these changes will actually result in truly being nerfs not buffs. I think the most damning part is that they don't see a problem with "ADCs turning on" and become the sole meaningful carries in teamfights or being able to 2-3 shot squishy targets.
The whole post contains no real talks of nerfs. Rather just changing build paths to be less Zeal focused, have more flexibility and stronger answer to opposing players.
chipndip11 votesIE is losing 50% amp which is only 20% of the ADC damage if you have 100% crit, 10% at 2 Items and 4% at just IE.
...if you have 100% crit...and you amp ALL YOUR CRITS BY 50%, IT IS NOT A 20% DAMAGE INCREASE. IT IS 50%.
BestPudgeNA1 votes...if you have 100% crit...and you amp ALL YOUR CRITS BY 50%, IT IS NOT A 20% DAMAGE INCREASE. IT IS 50%.
Your attacks do 100%, crits do 200%, the IE passive makes crits do 250%. Going from 250 to 200 is a 20% reduction. This is like 5th grade level math dude how do you not understand it
chipndip11 votesYeah, you right.
If you're gonna stand tall when you're right, you gotta stand down when you're wrong.
[sg-zephyr]
Teridax687 votesWhile I'm pretty happy at a lot of the stuff being mentioned, this is a doubt I've been having as well. The reductions to early AD, sustain and crit power I think are great, but then marksmen are also being given upfront burst items, which are pretty much the absolute last thing they need. To those saying it's just a crit, and so wouldn't provide the same kind of extra damage as Shiv or Duskblade, the problem with it is that its guaranteed crit means marksmen could stack raw AD with it for a much larger amount of crit damage, in addition to a guaranteed enhanced Shiv proc, meaning we might end up with many more one-shots on certain champions, namely Draven, Jhin and Miss Fortune.
Additionally, what worries me is that there's this large emphasis on marksmen ignoring armor via true damage and total armor pen -- this sounds like a pretty harsh hit to both tanks and fighters, who are likely going to have an even harder time itemizing against a marksman who's ahead, even if the total pen is generally harsher against squishies (though it's still pretty effective against the higher base resists of tankier targets). Armor purchases already often feel mediocre against marksmen, but with these changes they might become even less effective. Furthermore, the fact that crit itself is remaining as this random damage bonus I think is going to continue contributing to the frustration of playing against marksmen. While many assassin players have been asking for a revert to total armor pen, this change is likely to lead us back to the era of Cleaver + Last Whisper, with now Lethality added on top, so that itemizing against assassins will itself also be especially difficult.
What also concerns me about these changes is that they were announced as a means to introduce more diversity in bot lane, but the patch is almost exclusively focused on marksmen. Moreover, it focuses even harder on making marksmen a carry class, with a lot of power shifts from early to late. I fail to see how these changes will allow non-marksmen to come bot, especially when we're also going to be receiving blanket nerfs to mages, and no further work on fighters. On the flipside, while I'm glad that these base AD nerfs will likely lead to less ranged autoattacker dominance in top lane, I feel one side-effect to this is that, if it succeeds at making marksmen properly weak early, it also runs the risk of sequestering the class to bot lane, when they deserve to go to other lanes in a healthy manner.
In general, many of these changes do seem like power shifts and nerfs, but unlike, say, the mage or jungle nerfs, these marksman changes still focus a lot on giving the class more options and other benefits, without necessarily diving into the nitty-gritty of what makes them unhealthy to play against from moment to moment. Sure, marksmen are unhealthy in part because they're way too strong, but they're also unhealthy because their damage is too focused on a source that is overly reliable and lacking in counterplay. The latter will not change, and may become worse with the addition of Stormrazor.
GigglesO4 votesI just want to see damage actually lowered in game. Instead we are just getting shifts. You have alot of points that are easily resonated with across the community.
Guess we find out how big of a hit to base stats they are actually making, and how much they are actually changing items.
BestPudgeNA1 votes{quoted} Guess we find out how big of a hit to base stats they are actually making
-4 Base AD but better scaling so they break even towards the end of lane phase is what Axes said. I think anyone in their right mind would consider this change a buff and not a nerf.
"Another change on this front is that marksmen are trading 4 base attack damage for a bit more AD scaling (breaking even late in lane phase or a bit thereafter)."
GigglesO2 votesThat is a buff... Lane phase ends by like level 10... Def a buff.
Ryusaether2 votesWell, the option to have frontloaded damage isn't bad. Not all marksmen have scaling identities, and those who have won't buy this item because it isn't that much productive in their lategame niche, cause it gives AD and AS but not crit (just an ensured crit after 2.5 sec not attacking, which isn't optimal for them because they want to AA repeatedly). Meanwhile it gives an option to the likes of Draven and Jhin who can capitalize on their single target frontloaded burst (Draven because he just charges at you and destroys you with his rotation, Jhin because he benefits from dealing more dmg to you in the first instances so he can deal more %missing health dmg with his 4th shot crit, plus both benefit from MS and AS, and Jhin benefits a lot from an ensured crit plus his other ensured crit in the 4th shot), thus giving more variety in botlane (which is now crit scaling adcs only). I hope the ER changes will buff Lucian as well (even though I hate him, he's in such a pitiful state rn...).
Plus the new Item and Keystone will probably be good on other classes like melee adcs and maybe some fighters.
The IE changes imo are good to make sure ADCs don't just burst every target in their rane but do their job at melting tanks. The issue rn is Statikk and RFC, I hope they will try to lower that burst as well (and their prices are getting increased so that their purchased will be delayed a bit, which is really good).
Curious to see how they will buff Botrk (other than 200 less gold as they already stated) and Maw, and I don't know how I feel about LW and Lord Dominik changes, but they had to get rid of Giant Slayer because with IE now dealing true dmg you can't have %health based dmg as well or opponents cannot build against it, so maybe the tot armor pen is fine, but I can stee it staying bonus armor dependant, so it won't affect squishies as well, we'll have to see.
For this changes and their interactions with non-marksmen coming to botlane, I think we'll have to wait a bit. But overall I like the direction they're taking with marksmen's lategame fantasy and weakining them early on, but keeping at the same time the marksmen bullies like Draven in their niche role.
3TWarrior2 voteswait, they actually made a "guaranteed crit" item...
as if we didn't have enough to worry about, now that will be a first or second item build!
imagine a jhin where all he needs to delete the opponent is to wait 2.5 seconds...that's what an item like that will do and it only expands upon the random burst nature of marksmen
Battalion1 votesI hope, I hope, I hope that the coded interaction with Jhin's forth shot (is bugged/broken) makes the guranteed crit effect be applied twice so it's
200ad x 2 = 400ad 400ad x 2 = 800 ad
At level 10
that would make my day, I would be a happy camper (top lane, I'd never go botlane ever again)
Ryusaether1 votesCrits exist now anyway duh, even worse now you can crit anytime you want, while with this item you can crit only after 2.5 sec being inactive, next shots will be normal. Jhin is a special case because he has the fourth shot which has %missing health damage as well, making his synergy theorically better than others'. But consider that if you rush this item you only have the first AA critting, while by going zeal you can crit multiple times, depends on RNG.
Lane bullies should have options to capitalize on to punish scaling pussy ADCs when they should be punished, since lategame Jhin becomes a W pick ultbot and Draven becomes an all inner who trades his life for a squishy opponent's one (unless he picks someone out of position). Each marksman should have his playstyle, if these 2 are better at dealing frontloaded burst I don't get why they should be forced into crit/AS builds.
Teridax681 votesWell, the option to have frontloaded damage isn't bad. Not all marksmen have scaling identities, and those who have won't buy this item because it isn't that much productive in their lategame niche, cause it gives AD and AS but not crit (just an ensured crit after 2.5 sec not attacking, which isn't optimal for them because they want to AA repeatedly). Meanwhile it gives an option to the likes of Draven and Jhin who can capitalize on their single target frontloaded burst (Draven because he just charges at you and destroys you with his rotation, Jhin because he benefits from dealing more dmg to you in the first instances so he can deal more %missing health dmg with his 4th shot crit, plus both benefit from MS and AS, and Jhin benefits a lot from an ensured crit plus his other ensured crit in the 4th shot), thus giving more variety in botlane (which is now crit scaling adcs only).
Giving bursty champions the option to get even more front-loaded burst is exactly the issue I'm talking about. It is bad because most marksmen, when given front-loaded burst on their autoattacks, offer little opportunity for their opponents to outplay them. Due to their range, they generally have the first move advantage over most champions, and due to the reliable nature of autoattacks, there is little to nothing most champions can do to avoid taking this upfront damage. In the end, what this means is that if anyone under a certain threshold walks near a marksman with upfront burst, they are essentially guaranteed to die, with nothing they could do to change things except never get within range (which defeats the purpose of playing an assassin or light fighter). Even mages, the only class capable of outranging marksmen, have less reliability and higher cooldowns to their burst, so it makes little sense to give that kind of burst to a class intended to specialize in DPS.
Plus the new Item and Keystone will probably be good on other classes like melee adcs and maybe some fighters.
Perhaps, but that is clearly not the primary intent of those changes, and considering how Riot doesn't even seem to want to pay all that much attention to crit-dependent fighters, at least not while the changes just start hitting, it is unlikely that these effects are balanced with any kind of focus on non-marksmen either. It could likely turn out great for many champions, and I think many of these changes are going to seriously buff AD assassins, but that in itself isn't so good in an environment where assassins, and especially AD assassins, are already quite strong in solo queue.
The IE changes imo are good to make sure ADCs don't just burst every target in their rane but do their job at melting tanks.
I'm well aware, as that was the exact same reasoning given in the original post, but my issue with the IE changes isn't with burst, it's with the way it melts tanks. One of the core components to tanking is that you pick defenses that allow you to adapt against your attackers: if a certain class of champions can completely ignore a large portion of your defenses, that tankiness you purchased becomes devalued. When that class of champions just so happens to be present on both teams in every game, while also being their team's single biggest source of damage, suddenly it means that any sort of tanky champion is going to be denied a very large portion of their power and gameplay, due to it being hard-countered by the combination of true damage and percent armor pen. Effectively, what we needed was a system with fewer sources of damage that ignore tank stats entirely, so that tanks could be more consistently durable and balanced overall, yet what we got instead was a set of itemization changes that doubled down on those problems.
But overall I like the direction they're taking with marksmen's lategame fantasy and weakining them early on, but keeping at the same time the marksmen bullies like Draven in their niche role.
I'm personally fine with making late-game marksmen weaker, but I think forcing the entire class onto a carry curve is also going to make it more difficult, not less, for non-marksmen to enter the carry role. Mages, fighters, assassins, etc. are already up against stacked odds, for the simple reason that they're all far less powerful than marksmen, but on top of that these classes are generally forced to peak early or mid-game before falling off late. By contrast, marksmen are given everything to scale harder than everyone else, and this kind of changes only further reinforces that. Marksmen are the only real carry class in the game at this point, and so in part because they are given this incredible carry power curve by default. How then are we to have members of other classes compete with marksmen for the carry position?
Ryusaether1 votesI'm sorry I won't quote your post step by step because I'm from mobile, I hope my response doesn't get too confusing to read.
For the first point, I agree with you, they shouldn't get the likes of duskblade as a core item. The fact is: they actually won't. It's "just" as if they come at you with a Zeal item and they crit the first time they hit you, nothing more than that, and now without the dmg increased by IE. I think it's kinda reasonable, considering not every ADC will purchase this item, in favor of crit/AS/MS lategame scaling paths.
On the second one, maybe they will split melee and ranged effects like they often do, and balance these things out. I also hope they will address the assassins problem by making Mages more reliable in SoloQ without them being unhealthy in proplay.
Regarding IE, we have to see how much of your crit dmg (only crits get converted into true damage, am I right?) gets converted into true dmg. I highly doubt it will be 100%, 50-20% seems much more reasonable (20% would be like a conqueror but only on crits, which I think it's the better compromise, 50% would be too much probably). Plus they stated that Tabis and Omen's effects will probably be applied BEFORE the true dmg from IE. The fact they removed Giant Slayer also means you have counterplay to that true dmg by building HP, so that bruisers can go form more HP-AD as they would love. My only concern at this point is the buffed Botrk that will come (botrk+ie means %health true dmg, even though only a portion of the crits gets this true dmg bonus) and the fact that LW now is applied on total armor and not just bonus.
I agree with your last point, I can't see how you can integrate other classes in that lane unless snowballing becomes so strong that ADCs will be put so behind that they won't get to their lategame spikes. Plus I hope that not ALL the class becomes lategame oriented only. Maybe we will see AP from items go up so that mages can keep up with ADCs (would make sense because they're getting nerfed a bit on mana regen, and would be better to get less spammable but more impactful abilities, so that you get punished for missing them and rewarded for hitting them). But I am no expert and will have to rely on Riot or competent people's theories on this argument.
Teridax681 votesFor the first point, I agree with you, they shouldn't get the likes of duskblade as a core item. The fact is: they actually won't. It's "just" as if they come at you with a Zeal item and they crit the first time they hit you, nothing more than that, and now without the dmg increased by IE. I think it's kinda reasonable, considering not every ADC will purchase this item, in favor of crit/AS/MS lategame scaling paths.
But it's not just like a Zeal item, because a Zeal item doesn't provide a guaranteed initial crit. The major risk here is that a champion like Jhin, Draven, MF, etc. could get Stormrazor, then build raw AD to maximize the damage of their first crit, with perhaps a Statikk Shiv on top for the extra guaranteed initial damage. Because their first hit would be guaranteed to crit, they'd be guaranteed to double the damage of all of the AD they purchased, and thereby crit for much harder than if they'd went for a more balanced build with more crit chance or attack speed. Several of these champions already get close to one-shot territory with their current itemization, and this item (and Keystone too, apparently), coupled with their base AD increases, risks pushing them even farther towards that threshold, or even past it.
On the second one, maybe they will split melee and ranged effects like they often do, and balance these things out. I also hope they will address the assassins problem by making Mages more reliable in SoloQ without them being unhealthy in proplay.
Except the assassin problem specifically has to do with marksmen and supports being too well-defended for assassins to function consistently in pro play. None of this has anything to do with mages, which is why the mana nerfs are so terribly misguided. Moreover, once AD assassins get access to a new source of penetration, they are going to become very difficult to counter-itemize at all levels, making them even less healthy in solo queue. Reworking mages isn't going to change this.
Regarding IE, we have to see how much of your crit dmg (only crits get converted into true damage, am I right?) gets converted into true dmg. I highly doubt it will be 100%, 50-20% seems much more reasonable (20% would be like a conqueror but only on crits, which I think it's the better compromise, 50% would be too much probably). Plus they stated that Tabis and Omen's effects will probably be applied BEFORE the true dmg from IE.
The amount itself is not really what is relevant here. The very fact that IE will convert a portion of crit damage to true damage is the problem, because it is going to contribute to an environment where tanks and fighters will have an even harder time itemizing against physical damage dealers. Even if the amount were tiny, at which point IE wouldn't be worth purchasing, it would still be bad, because one way or another, you'd still end up with a dysfunctional item.
The fact they removed Giant Slayer also means you have counterplay to that true dmg by building HP, so that bruisers can go form more HP-AD as they would love. My only concern at this point is the buffed Botrk that will come (botrk+ie means %health true dmg, even though only a portion of the crits gets this true dmg bonus) and the fact that LW now is applied on total armor and not just bonus.
Sure, HP stacking is likely going to be the way to go, but that's not really all that helpful in an environment where percent health damage is plentiful, even without BotRK. Kai'Sa is but one of the newer champions with percent health damage in her kit, for example, and the majority of recently released and reworked champions innately apply percent health damage as well.
I agree with your last point, I can't see how you can integrate other classes in that lane unless snowballing becomes so strong that ADCs will be put so behind that they won't get to their lategame spikes. Plus I hope that not ALL the class becomes lategame oriented only.
This is fair. I agree that not every champion needs to curve late (especially because if everyone curves late, nobody does), but at the same time I also think power curves should be implemented on a per-champion basis, rather than per-class: we should definitely have late-game marksmen, but I think we also deserve to have proper early or mid-game marksmen, who peak earlier but then fall off, or at least don't scale nearly as hard. Conversely, when a member of another class is designated as a carry, like Nasus or Veigar, they should be able to carry as hard as a late-game marksman. It is this huge discrepancy in scaling, one where even the poorest-scaling marksman will frequently outscale a carry from any other class, that I think will only worsen with these changes.
Ryusaether2 votesYeah you're definitely right, these kind of marksmen are going to capitalize in their first crit by building almost raw AD (and lifesteal for Draven, Lethality on MF etc), and this can be kinda unhealthy, I gotta agree. I can't even say "at least they will throw less AA over time because they sacrifice AS for AD", because the new Item gives AS as well. I think they will gut it a bit, seems too convenient on these guys now that you made think about it.
By assassin problem I meant them (assassins) becoming more and more popular in soloQ, not their problem with ADC+Supp, but yeah, I think that should be addressed too. Sure, an assassin shouldn't be able to 1v2 an ADC protected by his supp, but at least he should have a window to outplay them, both in ganks and in teamfights. Lower shield duration or make it decay, just do something because it feels annoying for other classes as well (had a game with Darius where my full rotation couldn't get past the lifesteal+janna shield on a Jinx. Sure she was fed but I was fed as well, but ecsdee gotta build resistances because I get deleted every fight).
In the IE, we gotta say that ADCs (be it melee or ranged) are designed to DPS melting tanks, and this IE iteration isn't that unhealthy in that regard, considering tabis and Omen will apply their reductions before the true damage. The point is we have to deal with another offender: last whisper working on total armor will probably be built by assassins and even fighters as well, and this could be a real problem for resistance-stacking champions, that I hope will be considered/addressed without gutting champ who build those items nor buffing too much tankier champs, but by tuning those items. EDIT: they added the new IE on PBE. 20% true smg conversion from crits, the real problem is... it gives double crit chance (doesn't give crit chance per se, building from 2 BF, so you have to build two zeals, because ER doesn't give crit either, plus IE to become Yasuo and get 100% crit...) and now has 80 AD. I don't know what to say other than WELCOME LADIES AND GENTLEMAN TO A NOTHER EXCITING EDITION OF THE LEAGUE OF DRAVEN CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. Seriously though, I don't like this at all. Now my argument of going for Razor and sacrifice crits on other AAs goes to shit because you can always crit, this is some bullshit tbh.
In the Marksmen class though we don't have many %health dmg dealers, we have Vayne who already has true dmg as well (and I think it's a pretty toxic design but that's another topic), Kai'Sa who's her disciple, Kog, Jhin who deals dmg based on missing health, and the others aren't (in)famous for their %hp damage (or I can't remember rn). Other classes with %hp dmg usually don't go for IE, the main problem will probably be Yi but maybe not that much.
I again agree with your last point, which is what I was trying to say but with better words. I want a Viktor to carry the shit out of a late game, even more if he's doing well, but at the same time I want a Zed to be your nightmare and end the game ASAP if he crushes you, and this applied not only for different classes having different jobs and spikes, but on different champs from the same classes as well.
Teridax681 votesBy assassin problem I meant them (assassins) becoming more and more popular in soloQ, not their problem with ADC+Supp, but yeah, I think that should be addressed too. Sure, an assassin shouldn't be able to 1v2 an ADC protected by his supp, but at least he should have a window to outplay them, both in ganks and in teamfights.
I agree with this, though with regards to their solo queue performance, AD assassins are likely to be a problem due to the large amount of guaranteed upfront damage they're going to be able to opt into with these items: unless mages get much better access to health, it's going to be difficult to buff them against assassins, as what few counters are available to them (i.e. Zhonya's) will become less effective. It's already bad enough when an assassin snowballs out of control, but the amount of penetration at their disposal will mean that it will be even more difficult for less organized teams to rein them in when that happens. It's likely that assassins may become more popular in pro play after this, but pro teams generally tend to counter assassins due to the peel and lockdown they can output, not necessarily their counter-building, so these AD assassin buffs are likely to be disproportionately good in solo queue. This is right after a pro-oriented wave of mage nerfs that is also disproportionately affecting them at lower levels, so we may very well end up with two completely different metas between pro and non-pro play.
In the IE, we gotta say that ADCs (be it melee or ranged) are designed to DPS melting tanks, and this IE iteration isn't that unhealthy in that regard, considering tabis and Omen will apply their reductions before the true damage. The point is we have to deal with another offender: last whisper working on total armor will probably be built by assassins and even fighters as well, and this could be a real problem for resistance-stacking champions, that I hope will be considered/addressed without gutting champ who build those items nor buffing too much tankier champs, but by tuning those items
I agree that the shift to total pen will increase damage against squishies (including for marksmen), but I also feel true damage conversion is part of this rather wrong mentality Riot has had with respect to anti-tank damage: for sure, some classes are meant to be better against tanks than others, but that's generally because they have the consistent damage to grind tanks down, not because they get to kill tanks as fast as squishies. The entire point to tankiness is to take longer to die, so if that gets invalidated, a huge portion of a tank or fighter's power is lost in the process (and we see this even today, where tanks struggle to survive for as long as they used to, despite being very strong at the moment due to their base damage). If a champion cannot kill a tank properly without having to resort to damage that ignores health or resists, then that champion is simply not an innate tank-buster, and if no champion can deal properly with tanks without target-agnostic damage, then tanks simply have too many raw defenses. There's been a consistent issue of tanks being balanced pretty much exclusively around marksmen, an issue that is likely to persist or even worsen after these changes, and I'd personally rather we lost some target-agnostic damage in exchange for tanks that don't require a member of one specific class in order to kill them.
EDIT: they added the new IE on PBE. 20% true smg conversion from crits, the real problem is... it gives double crit chance (doesn't give crit chance per se, building from 2 BF, so you have to build two zeals, because ER doesn't give crit either, plus IE to become Yasuo and get 100% crit...) and now has 80 AD. I don't know what to say other than WELCOME LADIES AND GENTLEMAN TO A NOTHER EXCITING EDITION OF THE LEAGUE OF DRAVEN CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. Seriously though, I don't like this at all. Now my argument of going for Razor and sacrifice crits on other AAs goes to shit because you can always crit, this is some bullshit tbh.
It is, though arguably it could go either way. Getting 100% crit with IE and two Zeal items does mean getting a perfectly reliable amount of crit, but also sacrifices a lot of raw AD in the process, since Zeal items have no AD. By contrast, Stormrazor requires no additional crit chance at all, so even if you wouldn't crit as consistently, you could still crit for much, much more if you itemize for raw AD afterwards. Neither path seems entirely healthy, though, which is why I think marksmen will continue to feel unhealthy to deal with after these itemization changes.
In the Marksmen class though we don't have many %health dmg dealers, we have Vayne who already has true dmg as well (and I think it's a pretty toxic design but that's another topic), Kai'Sa who's her disciple, Kog, Jhin who deals dmg based on missing health, and the others aren't (in)famous for their %hp damage (or I can't remember rn). Other classes with %hp dmg usually don't go for IE, the main problem will probably be Yi but maybe not that much.
We have Vayne, Kai'Sa, Kog, and Jhin, but also Kalista (bonus max health damage on W), Kindred (current health damage on W + missing health damage on E) and Varus (max health + missing health damage on W) for innate max health damage. Additionally, Blade of the Ruined King is a counter to raw health that will become much more popular after the changes to anti-armor damage, especially since its build cost is getting reduced by 200 gold. It is therefore not uncommon for a marksman to innately be able to melt through a tank's innate defenses already, and while IE isn't usually bought by non-marksmen, it's still likely to make light fighters like Yasuo, Fiora, Yi, etc. harder to counter. We're already seeing Yi become far too strong in certain elos due to Conqueror giving him even more true damage, and he will only have more of it after this update.
I again agree with your last point, which is what I was trying to say but with better words. I want a Viktor to carry the shit out of a late game, even more if he's doing well, but at the same time I want a Zed to be your nightmare and end the game ASAP if he crushes you, and this applied not only for different classes having different jobs and spikes, but on different champs from the same classes as well.
Indeed, and this is why I also kind of take issue with the way Riot's been trying to standardize match durations. Sure, 30 minutes on average is a good window, but it's frequently difficult to efficiently convert a power lead into ending the game. When Zed becomes fed, for example, he can easily murder members of the enemy team, but he can't really bring down objectives, and even with the changes to how AP damages towers, I doubt that mages will become efficient pushers either. Riot's intent may have been to enable diversity in bot lane, but these changes don't really address the monopoly marksmen have on pushing, in addition to their exclusive carry curve, which is why I heavily doubt that bot lane diversity will actually happen from this.
Ryusaether1 votesYeah, buffs to AD assassins paired with mage nerfs will be a pain to deal with, I just hope they will see effects already in patch 8.10 so they will try to help mages a bit facoring that assassins will be even better in 8.11. I am perfectly fine with mages not being just a Waveclear bot (and I main Aurelion Sol and Viktor), but give me some motivation to engage fights in midlane with an assassin that can just blow me up at lvl 3 if I misplay 1 spell or I'm low on mana for trying to poke him. Now that they've made this changes I can see where they were going with the Manaflow changes giving mana when hitting champs, so you don't just clear but try to hit as well and now that you get less mana regen some mages will probably be forced in taking that rune and try to hit enemies to stay in lane, but I think the reward is still a bit lackluster. I would appreciate less spam in the forms of mana pools/regen/cdr in favor of raw damage going up in mage builds, or maybe more interactive Items with better niches (though they tried in the last update, they practically made GLP useless for its user and anyone else in general by removing Catalyst in its buildpath, thus affecting that diversity they wanted to promote).
I agree with your point here, and I'll add that with this total armor pen and the removal of Giant Slayer, Tanks will probably have to fear ad casters (and probably assassin) as well. The likes of Riven and Jayce will probably build LW and deal tons of damage to tanks while normal adcs will still deal a ton to them.
The problem is that you can sit on a completed Zeal item + IE + just a Zeal and then build something else and still get 100% crit chance. Gotts see if it will be worth, but probably yes. As an ex ADC main who would like this class to be more healthy, I can say I liked the gials Riot Axes posted but don't like the direction it's taking (and we still haven't seen the new Domination Keystone...). Luckily they have 2 patch cycles to adjust things up, I hope for the better.
Yeah I fear the Botrk + LW (and maybe + IE once you get crits) meta as well because it has no countermeasures: it's basically %health partial true dmg. Yi had some stupid interactions with Rageblade that just got patched for hum and Jhin, though he will be a problem anyway with this direction. I was thinking if there is some item to counter this playstyles but nothing comes up to mind, just Randuin and HP stacking.
In fact even if zed manages to carry a fight, if his adc is dead he usually won't be able to take down many objectives. He's a decent splitpusher, don't get me wrong, but if someone on the enemy team survived and his team is like in a 3v2 scenario under the enemy turret, he will likely back because he can't stay there autoing the turret in melee range without risking the opponent's engage, while adcs can sit and siege with their AD, higher AS and range. I hope they really mean to change botlane's rigid meta, both by making other options better in different situations (by winning early or mid) or by having some champs effectively compete with them in the lategame fantasy, and even give supports kits or at least items that help mages or melees as well.
BLIGHTBRINGER1 votesThey did mention that they are going to be nerfing Infinity Edge early power and shifting it towards late game.
GigglesO1 votesOh boy, because squishies don’t have better access to armor than they do health? Zhonyas, GA? Which new ledge cuts through armor.
FridgesArePpl21 votesYou sure read that wrong then.
GigglesO2 votesSo we are making other ad items stand alone, and making this 65 ad 25% attack speed item that gives 1 hit of 100% crit and 25% (extra attack speed... yea instead of a two item power spike now they are gonna get it all wrapped into one item.
3411235456528 votesI really could not thank RiotRepertoir any more than this. Literally everything I could have wanted in league he is doing. I have to apologize for all the shitty and rude things I said about him and the posts I made. I hope he reads this. They are literally doing everything to make the game less bot lane focused and less of a coin flip. They acknowledged every problem and are going to fix it in a way without making ADCs weaker vs tanks.
Again, sorry RiotRepertoir but maybe if you were more transparent with what was coming up, the boards wouldnt have eaten u alive.
Hópe8 votesI heavily disagree with this sentence
Getting killed as a hypercarry in lane doesnt put you behind
If you have ever played a hypercarry and died in lane due to a 3-4 man gank etc, you know how easily you become useless for atleast 10-15 minutes. That is a load of bullshit, You do fall behind extremely hard.
LUXANNA HOSHIDO1 votesI heavily disagree with this sentence
If you have ever played a hypercarry and died in lane due to a 3-4 man gank etc, you know how easily you become useless for atleast 10-15 minutes. That is a load of bullshit, You do fall behind extremely hard.
depends on the champion in that case, imo
if you are behind on jinx yeah because you need about two items to do a decent amount of damage, but on someone like kai'sa you spike at one item and have the base damages to back it up so it's not too bad. still, idk why you got downvoted
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=After The Storm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QJaPjfgO,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-05-01T21:08:33.040+0000)
depends on the champion in that case, imo
if you are behind on jinx yeah because you need about two items to do a decent amount of damage, but on someone like kai'sa you spike at one item and have the base damages to back it up so it's not too bad. still, idk why you got downvoted
Kaisa isnt a crit adc. The whole paragraph was referenced to a crit adc.
LUXANNA HOSHIDO1 votesKaisa isnt a crit adc. The whole paragraph was referenced to a crit adc.
he said hypercarry not crit adc hello???
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=After The Storm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QJaPjfgO,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-02T22:23:58.424+0000)
he said hypercarry not crit adc hello???
Nope its about crit adcs. The whole pargraph on that is on crit adcs, go look at the rioters writing it explicitly states that.
LUXANNA HOSHIDO1 votesNope its about crit adcs. The whole pargraph on that is on crit adcs, go look at the rioters writing it explicitly states that.
ok hope i was talking about the paragraph that I responded to, not the riot response you ogre
Hópe1 votes[{quoted}](name=After The Storm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QJaPjfgO,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T19:55:07.595+0000)
ok hope i was talking about the paragraph that I responded to, not the riot response you ogre
Idk where we went wrong. My comments about crit adcs though, falling behind on any of them is kinda stupid and frustrating
NineTailedMystic6 votesLW total armor pen again
/wrists
Doozku2 votesLaughs in Assassin Meta
Tokogawaruf1 votesLaughs in Youmus/Duskblade/Lastwhisper
Mordepool4 votesBeing Right about Zeal items for 2 years. Still feels shitty.
Mizaya4 votesChanging Last Whisper and its upgrades back to total armor penetration. This makes it a better scalar for AD and flat armor penetration builds, since it provides better value against non-armor-stacking champs.
thank you riot
Beerstein3 votes"Reworking Essence Reaver to function as a standalone item. It'll still reward combat patterns that combine auto attacks and spellcasts, but without a dependency on crit."
Ohhh, this looks potentially really good for jungle ADs that can build Guinsoos+BOTRK.
Also "Simple efficiency buffs to Blade of the Ruined King"
saltran3 votesI'm looking for lethality + new essence reaver MF
Venomar2 votesOk, I get it. I guess. Less tripple damage and more predictable true damage streaming out, but... Adding shit for a dps class that provides upfront burst while simotaneously trying to elimate burst? Huh? What? Heeeelllooooo? Shivcrit/RFC with a now duskblade style proc and rune? I don't get it.
Also, with all this true damage being thrown around, there's gonna be a huge shift into health stacking, more so than there already is. I could see some serious fucking problems with tanks only needing one Armor item and then MR and health stacking to effectively shut down both damage types for a lot less gold than before...
I hope they are testing this shit right proper...
Rainfall1 votesSo they are nerfing mages.......and reworking BF do deal more damage on first attack....and last whisper to penetrate a % of total armor and another good assasin mastery......At least the ban button on zed still works which is nice,please don't rework that.
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