Elise has the second highest win rate of all junglers

KilljoyX·Jul 24, 2015·21 votes·3,675 views

But "I still think she'll need a little more for pro play" AM I RITE GUYS?

123 Comments

Slamurai JackJul 24, 201522 votes

They buffed her stun duration from 1.0 to 1.6 at rank 1. That's a 60% duration increase on a hard CC, at her strongest point in the game. No shit her win rate skyrocketed.

AbyssphereJul 24, 201512 votes

Yeah the balance team are really funny sometimes. Last time they changed her they were convinced she'd be viable - nothing changes. This time they're convinced she'll need a little bit more to viable - suddenly she's amazing.

I just hope she's not broken. But 52% win rate Elise just doesn't seem right. Cocoon was probably buffed too hard.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 24, 20158 votes

Honestly, win rate means very little. Azir has a terrible win rate, but it probably isn't due to his nerf, it is most likely due to how difficult he is to play.

PunkkeeJul 24, 20153 votes

Azir is easily one of the strongest mid if played correctly

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20152 votes

azir has a high winrate for thos who have alot games with him, it was around 55% last patch at 125+games, ~52% now after the nerfs. Elise is at 56-57% winrate on experienced players, which actually means something. Still not the only thing to consider, but a quite meaningfull factor, as the winrate of 'mains' in high elo prettymuch reflects her soloQ powerpotential.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 25, 20151 votes

Where do you find this info? I'm curious. And obsessed with statistics.

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20152 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Azir

5 Stacks GGJul 24, 20156 votes

elise stun was nerfed a year ago because it was too opressive early game, it was 1.5 sec at all rank so they changed it to be 1 sec and scaled up to 2 sec, but now they made her early stun EVEN MORE BROKEN than it was a year ago, now is 1.6 sec but still go up to 2 seconds at max rank....

this is like bringing back talon silence make it scale harder and keeping the 99% slow, it doesnt make any sense...

599GTOxxJul 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

elise stun was nerfed a year ago because it was too opressive early game, it was 1.5 sec at all rank so they changed it to be 1 sec and scaled up to 2 sec, but now they made her early stun EVEN MORE BROKEN than it was a year ago, now is 1.6 sec but still go up to 2 seconds at max rank....

this is like bringing back talon silence make it scale harder and keeping the 99% slow, it doesnt make any sense...

To be fair, that nerf was amid like 60 other nerfs... I think they're trying to revert nerfs to get her out of the dumpster. They ought to keep the cocoon change, and revert the w as magical damage... then honestly she's fine.

5 Stacks GGJul 25, 20154 votes

she is not fine, she is back to being broken...

CatSithJul 25, 20151 votes

Because solo queue cant ward, yeah shes broken.

not.

5 Stacks GGJul 25, 20154 votes

found the elise main

CatSithJul 25, 20151 votes

She has a stun that has 1.6 duration yeah, but with a small hit box, does no damage, and a long cd. Ward if you don't want her to gank you, not that hard. 70 gold is worth the spending for the price of not dying and feeding the other team.

Just because solo queue has a problem with warding doesn't make a champion OP.

5 Stacks GGJul 25, 20154 votes

I didn't said anything about warding get that out of your head,

she is broken because she can towerdive any fucking champion at level 3 no wards gonna save you from that, either you back out or miss all cs or you try to fight but she always get away with that stupid rappel, so aids.

SchenixJul 24, 20155 votes

You have to wait a little longer. Elise just got buffs, this means her win rate and every other stat is to be taken with a grain of salt to how Elise really is.

Her play rate is sky high because players want to test her and this skews the numbers of her other stats both directly and indirectly. Wait for it to level out before making a judgment.

3TWarriorJul 24, 20154 votes

really? her damage has been raised to stupid heights where her spiderlings do as much damage each as her old ratio and she does twice that now

for the duration of 2 auto attacks, 10 spiderlings x 2 x .15AP ratio = 3.0AP ratio on spiderlings alone, then 2 auto attacks x 0.6 AP ratio = 1.2 + 3.0 = 4.2 ap ratio on just 2 auto attacks

if you build completely glass cannon AP only (not smart but not without benefits) that means she will hit for 4200 magic damage on just two auto attacks alone and that's ignoring her base AD

CatSithJul 24, 20152 votes

gee when did they raise her spiderlings cap to 10?

3TWarriorJul 25, 20151 votes

hang on, redoing my math so if you happen to check in while i'm editing...

I dunno, it's a numbers typo, 5 spiderlings, 10 attacks total from 2 attacks, 10 * .15(now doubled to .3 from active) = 3.0 ap ratio + 1.2 from elise's own attacks

the numbers again because typos are easy, 10 attacks total X .15 initial value X 2 from active = 3.0 ap ratio + .3 (elise's ap ratio) X 2 (active) X 2(2 autos) = 4.2 ap ratio total in 2 autos

if you want more damage, you can increase it to 4.5 total from a nasher's tooth, or 4.6 with both masteries and nashor's tooth

you can increase these values to 5.4 max if you add in sated devourer, though it's all up to preference

with only nasher's tooth in the mix and offensive masteries (without runes included), from elise's passive occurences of damage, it comes to 577.8 damage at 5.4 ap ratio

factoring in devourer's magic damage, elise's bonus damage in addition to the ap ratio, the spiderling's bonus damage in addition to the ap ratio(not multiplied by devourer)

the new total comes to 1322.8 bonus magic damage just from having 2 items at level 18 and getting to auto attack twice, that leaves room for 3 tank items (as most elise would like to build nowadays)

all hail the queen of the jungle

it's easy to get lost in numbers, but there are a lot of variables considering base damage of elise and the spiders

Skia AsteriJul 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I dunno, it's a numbers typo, 5 spiderlings, 10 attacks total from 2 attacks, 10 * .15(now doubled to .3 from active) = 3.0 ap ratio + 1.2 from elise's own attacks

the numbers again because typos are easy, 10 attacks total X .15 initial value X 2 from active = 3.0 ap ratio + .3 (elise's ap ratio) X 2 (active) X 2(2 autos) = 4.2 ap ratio total in 2 autos

Only Elise's autos gain the bonus from rappel. So with two autos from her plus 5 spiderlings the total AP ratio is 270%.

manbearswineJul 24, 20155 votes

Let's face it,this is really abnormal for a champion who used to dominate competitive play at ~49% winrate.

She will most likely get nerfed.

Earl EulrichJul 24, 20153 votes

well sure, they just got her back to her old win hard and early self... It will be picked up a lot for a month, than it will be too dominant and they will be nerfing her back to where she crawled from. It´s just really silly. All she would have needed would have been more options in teamfights, not more slaying people all around the map the first 10-20minutes.

KilljoyXJul 24, 20152 votes

Sits at the second highest JG win rate. Doesn't get nerfed. Whut?

Sightless66Jul 24, 20156 votes

Uh, dude, the patch was less than half a week ago. How the heck would they nerf her already? Like, I'm all for accusing Riot of being slow on things, but there's a point when it gets a bit unreasonable.

Only Play DariusJul 24, 20151 votes

Holy shit 54% winrate on Elise. I think Riot finally got it right!

Excuse me i'm going to go buy my first AP jungler.

Meanwhile the cancer we call Kalista has her winrate jump back to almost 50%. Looks like Riot's going to have to bring out the big guns to give this bitch the dumpstering she deserves.

Skia AsteriJul 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QGlGjOyq,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-07-24T15:06:16.952+0000)

Meanwhile the cancer we call has her winrate jump back to almost 50%. Looks like Riot's going to have to bring out the big guns to give this bitch the dumpstering she deserves.

Her play rate has dropped significantly over the last two patches, which is likely why her win rate is up.

Only Play DariusJul 24, 20156 votes

Her playrate is still too high (let's not even talk about pick/ban rate in LCS). I want her to get nerfed so hard that no one ever plays her.

Sorry if I sound cruel, but little Ms. FuckYourSkillshots was a mistake, and joins the ranks of every other mistake champion that has needed a full rework since the moment they were released Leblanc Vladimir Yorick Darius

3TWarriorJul 24, 20153 votes

idk why they think vlad was a mistake. his damage is okay but he's meant to be a survivor

it's champs like fizz, zed, and the new champ, Sated Devourer...yes, I said it, this item is so stupidly powerful for junglers now that it's like there's a whole other champ on their team

darius and leblanc weren't mistakes but their kits were too powerful(sorta) darius is supposed to be a niche pick against any melee so you can have an advantage and he falls off late game, but agaisnt anyone that outranges him, he gets bullied

leblanc was supposed to be a trickster like shaco, assassinating when your targets least expected it...well, with how fast her kit works, "least expected it" as it was before her recent nerf turned out to be at any time you are in range

BlastermineJul 24, 20159 votes

{quoted}

idk why they think vlad was a mistake. his damage is okay but he's meant to be a survivor

Vladimir is the reason why spell vamp has to be un-viable on 97% of the cast.

5 Stacks GGJul 24, 20151 votes

if you think darius was a mistake, you're probly shit at the game.

he is getting reworked very soon tho.

PS: vladimir is the only champ riot admitted that was a mistakes

DracidJul 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

if you think darius was a mistake, you're probly shit at the game.

he is getting reworked very soon tho.

PS: vladimir is the only champ riot admitted that was a mistakes

they admitted Riven was a mistake to. That giving her an AD scaling shield was one of the worst things they could have ever done

Sightless66Jul 24, 20151 votes

Can you find evidence where Riot actually said that? I'm kind of skeptical. It's something the forums have been pissed about forever, but I've never seen a Rioter say it's a bad part of her design or that she was a mistake. Their balance changes towards her haven't indicated that they think it was a mistake either.

DracidJul 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Can you find evidence where Riot actually said that? I'm kind of skeptical. It's something the forums have been pissed about forever, but I've never seen a Rioter say it's a bad part of her design or that she was a mistake. Their balance changes towards her haven't indicated that they think it was a mistake either.

i'll try and find it but this was 2 years ago I saw this post. I know 100% it was a RIOTer who said it. see what I can do

Sightless66Jul 24, 20151 votes

Alright. If you find it, I would certainly be interested. Worth bookmarking for sure.

CatAndBookTailsJul 24, 20151 votes

I can comment on how it is legitmate that they actually said that but i can't find it either under the heaps of threads hating an offensive scaling shield. It was in the "lets go start red pot and auto win lane" riven time.

PartholonianJul 25, 20151 votes

That's why they removed red pot from the game. Riven is still playable (in low to moderate elo), but not dominant and not cheesy in early laning.

I don't get what's the big deal about an AD scaling shield, anyway. Most other champs with a shield have AP scaling on the shield and AP scaling on their damage, so they also get shields and damage with the same stat. If the ratio was too high, that would be a problem, but IIRC it's not particularly high at all.

All shields also scale with the defensive stats of the recipient, but Riven's is self only, so she can't get that benefit unless she builds bruiser herself. (Compare, say, Orianna + Malphite.)

Auz the RipperJul 25, 20153 votes

With AP champions, the offensive scaling shield is less of a problem because the champions with those shields usually have less damage than other burst or sustain mages.

But Most importantly is that Autoattacks don't have an AP ratio, so AP is an inherently less offensive stat than AD unless the champion is specifically build around using it as such (looking at you Azir and Cassiopeia )

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20153 votes

Ap champs have no good way of sustain, Ad champs have atleast 1 lifesteal item in their corebuilt, which is a nother defense source that scales with offense. A riven with BT rush will be nearly impossible to kill 1v1 if ahead with the combination of lifesteal and shield.

Also, it's not only the shield but the kit around, Riven got 2 aoe hard ccs and a fuckload of free mobillity, which makes her damn slippery. Compared to Ap-champs with shields, Diana is all-in, she has no defensive mobillity, she needs the survivabillity granted by the shield - and she's known for snowballing in both directions aswell. Ekko's shield is only a minor part, as he usually stuns you for the time his shield is up. The other ap-scaleing shields can be cast on allys, they are utillity tools and the champions that have them pay for it with rather low mobillity and compareable low damage. Also, most utillity mages tend to stay ahead if they get ahead...

Shields scaleing with offensive stats always is rather snowbally, so are ad-casters in general due itemisation, and so is the combination of high mobillity and high damage. In Riven, all of that comes together...

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't get what's the big deal about an AD scaling shield, anyway.

An AD Scaling Shield is absolutely insane. It allows a champion that's already snowballing to snowball even harder and be rewarded for building glass cannon, on a stat that's already quite versatile. AD is stronger at taking objectives, stronger at clearing jungle, and more reliable in a fight because you get all of that damage on your auto attacks in addition to any spell scaling on AD.

By comparison, AP only adds 40% to damage on structures, adds 6% to your auto attacks IF YOU GET THE SPELLBLADE MASTERY and otherwise needs item 3115 or item 3100 to apply an AP Ratio (which is 15% and 50% scaling respectively) when auto attacking and if you can't cast spells, the stat is essentially worthless. Mages have utility because unlike AD which is reliable no matter what you are doing, AP requires you to be constantly casting spells in order to be effective.

Only Play DariusJul 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

if you think darius was a mistake, you're probly shit at the game.

lol I love Darius he's my second favorite champion! But lets be honest, he is toxic to play against and he has fun at the expense of others.

Auz the RipperJul 24, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QGlGjOyq,comment-id=00080000000000010001,timestamp=2015-07-24T20:30:32.768+0000) he is toxic to play against and he has fun at the expense of others.

Like every other CertainlyT champion

GorgannanJul 24, 20154 votes

He didn't say Darius is broken. He said he's a mistake.

Wins against 100% of all melees, and loses hard against every ranged, unless they make one misstep and suddenly they're fucked.

Then he's basically a melee Annie late game. Is flash up? Instant win teamfight. Is it down? Worthless.

5 Stacks GGJul 24, 20152 votes

Chogath Gragas Fizz Tryndamere TahmKench Riven Rumble Pantheon Yorick Renekton are melee that can easily win vs darius

the myth that darius win vs 100% of melee need to go srsly people.

LegacyDAPJul 24, 20151 votes

Cho isn't melee. They all have poke, shields, or hard CC/Damage Reduction. Those Melee will still probably lose to a good Darius. Maybe not Fizz/Riven.

5 Stacks GGJul 25, 20151 votes

so what? melee is melee and if the melee i named can beat Darius "the anti melee" then they can beat all the melee

you don't make sense and you probly dont know how to play against Darius because he is so easy to lane vs.

EDIT: wait a minute you guys complain that Darius win vs melee right? a melee that win vs melee isn't ok but a ranged that win vs all melee is fine? I don't even...

Ps: cho IS melee

GorgannanJul 25, 20152 votes

Ranged have a massive advantage vs. melee. The difference is ranged champions have to depend on their team late game, and melee's don't nearly as much.

5 Stacks GGJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ranged have a massive advantage vs. melee. The difference is ranged champions have to depend on their team late game, and melee's don't nearly as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNeSnGfsZ_E

Cuz Darius could totally do that amirite?

GorgannanJul 28, 20151 votes

Kennen didn't do it either. It was a mix of Jarvan and Tristana. Jarvan trapped his team in with his ult while Kennen Zhonya'd, and Tristana focused the tower against an easy kill.

5 Stacks GGJul 28, 20151 votes

sure stay delusional, you clearly miss out on every point peoples make.

Kuroi86Jul 25, 20152 votes

Ps: cho IS melee

He's... sort of melee. Yeah, he has to be within melee range to attack, but at the same time his auto attack range does increase significantly as the game goes on, not to mention his Vorpal Spikes allow a unique avenue where you can harass an opponent without even directly attacking him, personally the best way to go about the early game as Cho.

Kuroi86Jul 25, 20153 votes

They can win against Darius, but unless the Darius is an absolute nub then it's going to be a very uphill fight. Darius kit is built to downright demolish enemies in short and long trades. His kit is packed with power and the only thing that keeps him from being over the mountain OP is his lack of mobility. The trick to winning against Darius in lane is using his short range and no mobility to your advantage. If he pulls you in for a trade, it's very unlikely you're going to win.