Open Discussion on Volibear

Big Lincoln··29 votes·10,183 views

Meddler is wanting to buff Volibear soon so I wanted to make another thread about him

So lets talk about Volibear, his problems, and where he stands relative to other juggernauts

Volibear is a DPS fighter/tank whose main purpose is to get an early lead and then transition into a meat shield. What he offers are two CCs and an execute with a smidge of AoE damage. He is not an initiator; in fights he plays reactionary, either for peeling or for follow up after the primary tank. He is incredibly good at killing squishy champions, but struggles against tanks due to not building any damage items or penetration. He falls off hard late game.

From playing him endlessly the past two weeks, these are the problems I think should be addresses either in his VGU or in whatever small changes he'll get soon.

Poor allocation of power. At the moment almost all of his damage budget is tied to his execute, and his ultimate suffers for it. E and R feel very bland and not satisfying.

Season 7 jungle. Volibear has trouble keeping up thanks to these new camps, which is the biggest reason he's actually weak right now.

Too simple. It's impressive that Riot made a champion that manages to be more simple than Garen. His skill cap is his skill floor; there's no tricks to him beyond flash Q.

Dependence on snowballing. Kind of obvious for any stat heavy champion, Volibear is horrible if he falls behind early

Lack of specialty. Volibear does not excel at anything; his best claim is being able to kill squishes at low health but Darius can turn his execute into a steroid and carry a teamfight. He has no real niche and only becomes popular when his stats are stronger than his competition.

Relative to other juggernauts, what does Volibear offer? Not much. He has the worst time of them in dealing with tanks, others can kill squishes just as easily or easier, and Trundle, Nasus, Darius can all peel for teammates from further than melee range. His sustain is the easiest to deny, too. His peeling is fairly good, though, and with CDR he can spam his flip fairly frequently. He is also the one most dependent on snowballing to stay relevant into mid game.

I would like to see Riot shift power out of W and into his ultimate and passive, and open up some offensive items to him so that he can be more of a fighter than a secondary tank. He will probably need larger changes; if he needs a new role in his rework, I wouldn't mind him being a little more utilitarian and team oriented, given that he currently doesn't play as selfishly as a Darius or Illaoi would. Someone to pick if youd like to be a little more of a team player while still being able to carry.

Interested to hear what you guys think or would like to see Volibear get.

71 Comments

RiotRiot Wav3Break18 votes

Glad to see some passionate Voli players out there and great feedback! Currently I am planning to experiment with some satisfaction upgrades/light buffs to his ultimate on PBE very soon.

Live Gameplay works on a lot of stuff at a time and a large scope project for Volibear isn't heavily prioritized over other things right now unfortunately. That said, I feel that there are some easy changes we could make to make his R moments feel a lot cooler with minimal power increase.

If we did do larger scope work on him, I believe we would try to push him more into a juggernaut territory and re-tune his damages/tankiness around that direction.

Spideraxe1 votes

Can ya give any hints on what those changes might be

Big Lincoln7 votes

I'm incredibly passionate for all Juggernauts. Volibear's the only one that we know for sure is on your guys's plate, so I felt obligated to speak about him. I've got a couple of ideas as far as a large update goes, but for smaller changes I'd really enjoy having some power shuffled around to his ult and for his passive to be conditionally stronger. If you're just looking at his ult, maybe give it some way to hit tanks a little harder? He has trouble fighting other front liners; even just a small amount of % current health damage would do wonders for him.

Part of what I like about Illaoi/Darius and why I consider them to be the best designs of the group are that they actively reward you for playing aggressively with good healing and a lot of damage (Olaf is a close runner up). Volibear and Garen, and Mundo, don't really give that same satisfaction with their healing, and I find myself dying before the heal is even halfway over late game. Possibly, make the duration of the heal scale down with levels or ult ranks, so that it's the same total but much faster in the later stages?

I think you should look at his E, too. It's not very satisfying due to the instant nature of it, but a 3 second slow/fear to monsters is actually incredibly powerful.

also please elaborate on what you guys are testing

SirLapse1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFLUuEBc,comment-id=000e0001,timestamp=2017-03-16T22:20:14.558+0000)

I'm incredibly passionate for all Juggernauts. Volibear's the only one that we know for sure is on your guys's plate, so I felt obligated to speak about him. I've got a couple of ideas as far as a large update goes, but for smaller changes I'd really enjoy having some power shuffled around to his ult and for his passive to be conditionally stronger. If you're just looking at his ult, maybe give it some way to hit tanks a little harder? He has trouble fighting other front liners; even just a small amount of % current health damage would do wonders for him.

Part of what I like about Illaoi/Darius and why I consider them to be the best designs of the group are that they actively reward you for playing aggressively with good healing and a lot of damage (Olaf is a close runner up). Volibear and Garen, and Mundo, don't really give that same satisfaction with their healing, and I find myself dying before the heal is even halfway over late game. Possibly, make the duration of the heal scale down with levels or ult ranks, so that it's the same total but much faster in the later stages?

I think you should look at his E, too. It's not very satisfying due to the instant nature of it, but a 3 second slow/fear to monsters is actually incredibly powerful.

Coming from someone who hates fighting Volibear and yet somehow sees him at the beginning of every season, I'd like to say something about his passive.

Conditionally it secures him an extremely safe early game. I believe that should remain the ONLY advantage, because it is an extreme one. Saying it should be better for teamfights when Volibear consistently gets kited and builds tankier items really is counter-intuitive to the interactions that need to occur. He shouldn't be stronger in a place where he is weakest due to inherent kit flaws or it won't solve much.

If he should have any point where he is strong in the late game, I believe it should be coming from his ultimate only and gated by CD. Something like a Sunfire lightning DoT that does bonus damage on targets that you land spells on rather than AA's. Currently his ult feels like it does nothing unless it's a close 1v1.

Ralanr1 votes

His passive is really only good in the jungle early. In lane it really helps showcase why his laning is kinda shit.

Big Lincoln6 votes

You'd be surprised how easy he gets killed even with passive up early.

The change I suggested doesn't make him strictly 'better' late game -- it's a hopefully net neutral change, weighed off by the fact that his heal being a shorter duration makes applications of Grievous Wounds more powerful, but if he manages to avoid that somehow, his heal will be a bit burstier.

Personally, I'd prefer to have all juggernauts have in-combat sustain rather than 'triggers when you are low HP, activates out of combat' etc. but I'll probably do a separate thread on a complete overhaul for Volibear later

nice table1 votes

outside of darius id like to know about a "front line" champion voli has trouble fighting.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

Glad to see some passionate Voli players out there and great feedback! Currently I am planning to experiment with some satisfaction upgrades/light buffs to his ultimate on PBE very soon.

Live Gameplay works on a lot of stuff at a time and a large scope project for Volibear isn't heavily prioritized over other things right now unfortunately. That said, I feel that there are some easy changes we could make to make his R moments feel a lot cooler with minimal power increase.

If we did do larger scope work on him, I believe we would try to push him more into a juggernaut territory and re-tune his damages/tankiness around that direction.

He becomes a real bastard when he gets a slight lead and has really early tower dives. Will there be any changes to how binary he is? Usually its "He got to me with charge so I'm dead." "He didn't get to me with charge so he's worthless." His entire kit hinges on his Q. Everything else is so automated, or click target. Makes for a pretty dry, boring champ.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

{quoted}

Glad to see some passionate Voli players out there and great feedback! Currently I am planning to experiment with some satisfaction upgrades/light buffs to his ultimate on PBE very soon.

Live Gameplay works on a lot of stuff at a time and a large scope project for Volibear isn't heavily prioritized over other things right now unfortunately. That said, I feel that there are some easy changes we could make to make his R moments feel a lot cooler with minimal power increase.

If we did do larger scope work on him, I believe we would try to push him more into a juggernaut territory and re-tune his damages/tankiness around that direction.

More emphasis on his lightning would be really cool

Jesus is Savior1 votes

{quoted}

Glad to see some passionate Voli players out there and great feedback! Currently I am planning to experiment with some satisfaction upgrades/light buffs to his ultimate on PBE very soon.

Live Gameplay works on a lot of stuff at a time and a large scope project for Volibear isn't heavily prioritized over other things right now unfortunately. That said, I feel that there are some easy changes we could make to make his R moments feel a lot cooler with minimal power increase.

If we did do larger scope work on him, I believe we would try to push him more into a juggernaut territory and re-tune his damages/tankiness around that direction.

Any plans for Garen? imo all he needs is that HUGE windup time on his Q removed. It takes like 3x longer than a regular autoattack. (Go buy Shiv on Garen in practice mode and look how early the shiv procs compared to his Q - its hilarious)

Fondling Gems5 votes

Zilean "In my day, we would never have allowed an armored bear into the League of Legends."

RÉÁL HÚMÁN BÉÁN4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFLUuEBc,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-03-17T03:15:28.983+0000)

Zilean "In my day, we would never have allowed an armored bear into the League of Legends."

Volibear "Your time has run out, Chronokeeper."

Jar Jar binks l2 votes

They need to buff him, he is so bad right now. Worse then amumu and nunu

Big Lincoln16 votes

straight buffs wouldn't be good, he's too much of a stat sink for bigger changes to not be needed imo

IceKingChernobog1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFLUuEBc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-16T16:07:33.744+0000)

straight buffs wouldn't be good, he's too much of a stat sink for bigger changes to not be needed imo

At this point, his kit is too binary to buff and is in desperate need of a rework(Both visual and gameplay wise) But after the hack job riot did with aatrox and his "rework" im afraid what might happen to him.

Big Lincoln1 votes

im sketching one out myself atm, currently unsure if I want to follow up with the 'utility juggernaut' idea or if I want to make him more of a hard-carry type of champion

i have a better idea for the latter, since it doesn't change his kit as much

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly I forgot Volibear even has an ult. I'm more afraid of his bite when fighting him.

Big Lincoln3 votes

yeah I'd like to see his W weakened in favor of a stronger ultimate

I wouldn't be surprised if R was eventually replaced, it's not a very memorable ability

Ralanr4 votes

Isn't it his only lightning ability?

Isn't he supposed to be a storm herald?

Big Lincoln1 votes

I would expect him to do the whole lightning thing differently than an on hit effect

That, or do a Galio and turn it into a basic spell with a new ult

Ralanr1 votes

Looking at his kit, all the lightning just seems tacked on outside of his ult which uses an interesting mechanic.

Imo I could see his ult turned into a much weaker version that's a basic ability.

Mig891 votes

His ugly could keep its strength and be a basic ability. His ult is just terrible right now

Dessem1 votes

Sometimes I play Volibear in ARAM and forget even using his ult. Maybe I'm bad, but it doesn't do a lot for a tank.

Spoofghoul2 votes

his ulti should ground people

Keevalroy2 votes

It'd be interesting to see something like this tested: turning his Q into a ground slam like Sion's where he raises his arms, arcs his body back, and slams the ground, either stunning or knocking up targets in a small area to both give him something more thematic and interesting than running a little faster and flipping someone. That would mean he's going to lose his only form of mobility, so maybe move the speedup to his activated W? That way it's less disappointing when you have 3 stacks and can't seem to get in range to use it - you target someone and run at them knowing if it's close enough, he'll automatically bite.

His E is also nothing special, so how about adding a storm cloud area around him when he activates his ult, and when you E, lightning strikes champions like a Kennen ult? Dunno how this would look, I'm drunk and throwing things at the screen hoping they form words.

And A Real Hiero2 votes

Give Voli Shen's Q, but make it a spirit bear instead. Keep the flip and MS boost. W Same as now, but loses AS increases. Gains CD reduction per auto. E Both Voli and Spirit bear roar, damage doesnt stack slows around both bears. If stacked AOE fear. R Gives Voli regular ult plus 1 stack per level, he can throw a lightning bolt skillshot that deals his ults dmg.

Passive is already broken op.

Voli OP

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

I don't play much Volibear, however, I'm all for a champion shifting to become more useful, or more unique, making them actually viable. Should Volibear be worked on, a shift from his passive power, to his ultimate, shifting his CC around, perhaps adding some AD scalings, could be a good direction to go into.

Anags1 votes

No, he doesn't need AD scaling as he can't really build damage and do his job. So it would be pointless and prevent him from scaling anyway.

That would also force him to buy cleaver 100%. We don't need more of that, sorry.

He isn't that terrible it's just that the current top tier junglers shit on him. He can do nothing against Ivern for instance, but Ivern is broken. And the other meta jungles are carries that scale well or just have everything in their kit....like elise or lee.

He doesn't need power shifts. He just straight up needs more power.

Ralanr3 votes

A ball of stats doesn't need more power as he is now. He needs something to help give his gameplay depth.

Anags1 votes

Why does he need more depth.?Every champ doesn't need to be insanely complex. Are you going to give him skill shots or more mobility? I don't feel like that is necessary.

I personally don't want massive changes to him. They should just revert his last nerfs in 6.13.

The tank update itemization will likely have a significant effect on him anyway. They should probaby not do anything until then.

Ralanr2 votes

I'm not saying he needs a lot. I'm saying that his kit is too simple to allow for straight number buffs.

It's the Garen/Mundo problem.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Then you just get a tank dealing too much damage.

Anags1 votes

Not if you tune the numbers right. Your comment makes no sense. You could change his skills completely and have a champ that is tanky and does too much damage.

Voli has a lot less utility than most tanky champs so he needs some damage for the times when he can actually manage to get to the back line.

TheHappyReaperz3 votes

If you give him just more power, and change nothing else in his kit, you get a tank who deals too much damage. Volibear already kills squishies. The problem is his kit is boring, he has a low as hell skillcap, and playing from behind is pointless. None of that is solved by adding damage.

AdeBug1 votes

I disagree with quite a few things here, while agreeing with his lack of dmg, demanding more umpf to his ult, OR speed in whatever place, base stats or Q.

  1. He can be an initiator, in fact he has to at times, as everyone expects the (only) tank to initiate (right or wrong, it's a thing). His Q being as close as you can get to a Thresh's hook.

  2. Idk how late you mean when you say he falls off hard late game. Or when you say he's dependent on snowballing. What I love about him is that he is one of the few champs that can 1v1 successfully when TWO levels behind, like Vi and I think Yi, as well (I don't own these 2 tho, but I've seen what they can do). Now I managed to do that, and I've seen others do it too. Someone with no smite got a quadra kill with Voli while underleveled and with a score like ~2/8. I helped him throughout the jg knowing it wasn't a lost cause, but how much can you really help someone with no smite, you know? Imo Voli can be really strong, at least mid game, despite being behind. The only problem atm is not him, but the god dam birds, because I have issues with them with other champs, too, made some threads n comments about it since the beginning of this season, and switched to mid and support. Reduce their number, and the jg will be golden. It's prolly why he's mostly played top, last time I checked.

  3. I agree with his weird distribution of damage, W being the main one here, and I can add that I feel his kit is asking for the slowing smite rather than the burning one, even though he would benefit from the burning one more. It feels like with his little speed boost he still can't catch some champs at the same level with same level of boots.

  4. He has other tricks besides flash q, I'm only a bronzie but I realized I can fear them while chasing with Q. Increase fear's range and he might become op.

Big Lincoln1 votes

He can be an initiator

He CAN initiate, but he is not good at it, due to it being single target and melee range, and being easily negated by a slow or a stun. By comparison, Nautilus Sejuani Amumu are much better champions to pick when you only have room for one tank due to more range, AoE CC, and mobility. Volibear is much better off having someone else be the primary initiator, even if he is the main tank. Nautilus top, Leona support, etc. Are what let Volibear get into the fight easier so he can shine.

Idk how late you mean when you say he falls off hard late game.

He falls off because his tank stats quickly get shredded to bits after carries purchase their Whisper upgrades, BORK, Void staff, etc. When they are closer to full build, he struggles with doing anything other than becoming a secondary support unless someone else can initiate for him and tank aggro so that he can DPS the carries and execute them. Not to mention how poor his damage output is vs champions with resistances.

He has other tricks besides flash q, I'm only a bronzie but I realized I can fear them while chasing with Q. Increase fear's range and he might become op.

This is a 'trick' but you should note that his E slows champions, not fears.

AdeBug1 votes

Like I said, it's as good as a thresh's hook, not ult. Yes, it's single targeted, but so is let's say a Blitz's hook, and that's all you need to win a team fight if everyone is there and committed. You instagib the first victim, then the 5v4 starts.

Right, it only fears monsters and minions, slows everything. Thanks.

SlashStriker1 votes

Voli's W and E cooldowns are way too high Darius Cooldowns are low but he got resets on his ultimate Volibear could have similar thing on his W and the cooldown on his E should be lowered His Q could make him way faster Voli R could Mark enemies and his W could apply the bonus damage from R on marked targets. So R damage + W damage when can W

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

voli is tankier then Darius IMO and gets a movement speed steroid and his execute is on a basic ability...

SlashStriker1 votes

{quoted}

voli is tankier then Darius IMO and gets a movement speed steroid and his execute is on a basic ability...

Darius does True Damage Voli deas Phys Damage

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

wasn't it magic damage?i cant remember at this point since i hardly see those two top lane at all lately

SlashStriker1 votes

{quoted}

wasn't it magic damage?i cant remember at this point since i hardly see those two top lane at all lately

if someone say something and you don't remember google darius league wiki

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

I know darius does true damage im just not sure about the voli

Shahamut1 votes

item 3800 : Volibear is now an innitiator. You are welcome :P

BastionKross1 votes

Voli has many problems.

One of Voli's most egregious problems is itemization. Two abilities in his kit scale with attack speed, but juggernaut items don't support that stat. You can grab a item 3078, but that's not a lot of defensive stats for a melee frontliner with a single, conditional defensive ability built in his kit. Even Darius won't buy one unless he's incredibly ahead early on.

Granted, W takes care of itself somewhat because of the innate AS it grants, but the ult is just so underwhelming if you can't proc it a lot. This is made even worse since Voli can have a tough time sticking to more mobile champions to get autos off in the first place, despite his flip. There's counterplay, then there's a self-countering kit.

I would say his ult could be changed to something like Blitzcrank or Kennen has, where lighting strikes in an AoE around him when he activates it. To help separate Voli's ult from the other abilities, his ult could apply grounding to everyone struck by the bolts to give him a unique flavor and help him overcome kiting in his moment of strength.

Troll Slaiyer1 votes

definitely does not need more nerfs.i never even see him anymore and he is very boring to play

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

voli can burst a squishy really fast idk wtf you smoking. you cant buff his damage.

no to toxic1 votes

The best way to fix Volibear is a complete VGU. Where we find out that Zilean killed Volibears species.

Dr Dormidon1 votes

Darius isn't able to peel for his team lmao.

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