The randomness of the dragons has no strategic value

LegitBacon66·Jan 9, 2017·147 votes·4,803 views

Maybe the one game where 3 fire dragons spawn and you get all three you snowball the lead you had or come back.... but then the randomness feels weird. Oh look a cloud drake, ok lets just get it because it is it. Remember when Riot said the dragons were designed to bring out special team comps to play around them? Yeah no... too random.. to much RNG, nothing important. Dragon is like, "you just get it because you can." I wish dragons had strategic importance.

What if in champion select the game told you what dragons will be spawning (the max being 4)

113 Comments

invisiblecat1Jan 9, 201739 votes

It always feels like We are winning --> Cloud drakes We are losing--> Infernal Drakes Riot needs to balance them more so they are all equally contested

LeetriJan 9, 20177 votes

Isn't Cloud Drake one of if not the best dragon? Pretty sure that's what they're saying on Reddit at least.

DrCyanideJan 9, 201712 votes

How good it is depends on the team's ability to use it properly. The other dragons naturally get used properly, boosting damage you'd already be doing or regenerating more health/mana when you'd naturally be backed off, but cloud requires decision making to be anything more than a faster way back to lane.

EunsonJan 10, 20171 votes

The only Dragon worth getting is Infernal

I GANK LANESJan 10, 20175 votes

what? lol. i'd even argue mountain drake is stronger than infernal in most cases

My Waifu VanillaJan 10, 20172 votes

Until it is a stomp and we keep getting mountains when they don't have towers.

Zero Skill TankJan 10, 20171 votes

But why would somebody want go drake for 10% higher tower damage, if they can just go tower - or two - and have more than 10% enemy defenses pushed outright?

Z StatisticJan 10, 20171 votes

Because it's not 10% higher tower damage. It's closer to 20% because the 10% is applied to raw damage.

If you are dealing 100 damage to towers which have 100 armor, earth drake will increase it to 120. Trust me. I've actually done the testing. The white damage is not simply to make it more noticeable it is in fact significantly more damage to towers than fire drake would give you.

TeCoolMageJan 10, 20171 votes

(xy)/z = x(y/z)

Z StatisticJan 11, 20171 votes

ay + y/z != (a+1)y/z

TeCoolMageJan 11, 20171 votes

(dmgx(1+mountain))/(1+armour/100) = (dmg/(1+armour/100))x(1+mountain)

x/1.1=100 x=110 (110 raw damage)

if mountain drake is applied to raw damage 110x1.1=121 (121 damage before resistances) 121/1.1=110

if mountain drake is applied to damage afterwards 110/1.1=100 (100 damage before mountain drake) 100x1.1=110

Z StatisticJan 11, 20171 votes

In both of those instance, the bonus from mountain drake is physical damage. You are not allowing it to be true damage.

110 raw damage + 0.1*110 = 11 true damage = 110/1.1 + 11 = 111 net damage

If the tower has an arbitrarily high amount of armor and your attacks deal 1000 damage and you have +45% true tower damage, you will not deal 1.45x0 = 0 damage. You will deal 0 + 0.45x1000 = 450 damage.

Would you like me to provide a screenshot of in game damage to show that this is how the mechanic works?

LeonerdoJan 10, 20174 votes

Yeah. A long while ago, Riot said they had statistical data implying that Cloud was just as valuable as (or more than) the others. That was before they buffed it by 66%. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually the best dragon. It's just hard to notice. It's easy to tell when you destroy enemies with 3 fire drakes. It's harder to tell when you move around the map slightly faster with 3 cloud. But arriving at teamfights and defending towers 2 seconds sooner is actually really important. It's just... how can you tell how much time cloud drake saves you?

LankPantsJan 10, 20171 votes

As people pointed out that data doesn't actually show that Cloud is/was helping people to victories. It's equally possible that the only people getting Cloud Drakes are already winning, people weren't willing to risk a fight for a steal like they would for Infernal. If the only teams picking up Cloud are already winning quite heavily and likely to keep winning.

It's just... how can you tell how much time cloud drake saves you?

At the time when Riot was making that argument a Cloud Drake saved you half a second running from bot to mid. It was unquestionably completely useless.

LeonerdoJan 10, 20171 votes

Mm yeah okay. I still like it on Quinn :P

forrestoJan 10, 20171 votes

you devalue cloud drake? clearly you haven't seen a rammus or quinn with multiple cloud dragons rocket around the map.

LeetriJan 10, 20172 votes

I honestly haven't played much Summoner's Rift lately, I mostly play ARAMs nowadays. Internet's been pretty bad and DCing at random and I'd rather not ruin a 40 minute game for a bunch of other people.

EunsonJan 10, 20171 votes

You think drakes are important in solo queue besides infernal? you must have never been out of silver.[slayer-jinx-catface]

forrestoJan 17, 20171 votes

tbh I saw a post where someone broke down the math, and the 8% stat boost from infernal only really translates to an extra 3-4% damage on carries and even less on tanks/bruisers. It's not that huge.

vOmvbrawfUJan 10, 20173 votes

Cloud dragon doesn't give damage, so naturally it will be seen as shitty by the majority of the playerbase.

MAKAVELIncarnateJan 10, 20171 votes

Cloud is one of my favorites because it reduces travel time. When was the last time you were playing solo and your team had any kind of strategy anyway? I'm just hoping their smart enough not to feed and take a tower every now and then

I GANK LANESJan 11, 20171 votes

true that. inf and mountain are drake but as a jungle main i prioritize cloud drake on the same level as mountain and infernal. teammates dont feel the same way though so it's a bitch to siege tho HAHA rip

Photos of GhostsJan 10, 20172 votes

C O N F I R M A T I O N

B I A S

RalanrJan 10, 20171 votes

I just get cloud and earth drakes. Infernal are so rare for me.

Kinda glad because it means the enemy team snowballs less because they keep getting dragons.

ÇhåryzårdJan 9, 201717 votes

How are we supposed to "bring out special team comps to play around them" if they are 100% random

That's just a stupid statement on Riot's part

DanjengJan 9, 201710 votes

How about Drakes spawn at set intervals, so every few minutes, a Drake is replaced by another (like Baron replacing Rift Herald).

Now THIS requires strategy.

Edit for clarity: And they go in a set order, for example -- Cloud, Water, Mountain, Infernal, (REPEAT x 5), Elder.

Player's thought process would be something like "I want to snowball objectives, and it's 11 minutes, so Mountain Drake will be up in 1 minute. I'm going to head over now to prep the area. Pings- Drake spawning in 1 minute. Pings- omw to bot."

Thought process with current Drakes "Cloud's up. We got nothing better to do, so lets kill it."

FancYTHEToastJan 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

How about Drakes just spawn at set intervals, so every few minutes, a Drake is replaced by another (like Baron replacing Rift Herald).

Now THIS requires strategy.

I like this, or if you could affect it with something on the map, like champ kills or camps (not ideal, just as an example).

CoraxoJan 10, 20176 votes

I think they should show all drakes that are spawning in the whole match in the champion select, this way it'll truly "bring out special team comps to play around them".

My idea definitely has flaws, but i think they can come up with a similar idea.

SecretlolzJan 10, 20172 votes

It's not a bad idea but it will easily unleash MORE snowball on the winning side that planned ahead for that drake

DanjengJan 11, 20171 votes

Compared to the current snowball on the winning side that did not plan ahead.

ZILLAGULAJan 9, 20176 votes

The randomness of the dragons is exactly what gives them strategic value. Oh a cloud dragon? We can go for a tower, it isn't that important. An infernal? We have to secure this one, folks. It's good that they aren't equally strong because THAT brings strategic value into the game.

SnakDatSmilesBakJan 10, 20172 votes

I mean I guess you're not wrong that it technically does add strategy but then what's the point of cloud if people rarely want to go for it? Is it meant to just be a filler so that people aren't always going for every drake?

Edit: nvm i see what you're saying. I think you mean that certain dragons are only good for certain comps/champs and that's what adds the strategic value to the rng because you should decide whether to go for one based on whether your team can use it effectively. Can you think of any reason drag spawns should be rng and not spawn in order? The only thing that i can think of is so that people can't reliably use the same strats every game which doesn't seem like a bad thing to me tbh.

SpecterVonBarenJan 10, 20174 votes

I think if they wanted to make this better is if dragons got replaced if they weren't taken in time. Like every 4 minutes the current drag will just automatically be replaced by a different one so you don't get situations where no one is taking drag because it's an element that no one cares about.

6SfoolJan 9, 20175 votes

You're not really thinking enough about the implications of the dragons. Fire drag is always nice, but especially important if you have lots of glass cannons, earth drag is a pain in the ass on splitpushing comps, wind drag is really strong on teams with strong initiate like leona, thresh, naut, and water drag is really good for countering poke comps and for mana-hungry champs. I always think about what stats I don't want the other team to have, rather than what we want. They got evelynn? Take that wind drag or she will be a nightmare to deal with. Their hard poke-based botlane is beating up on you? Take that water drag for your health or it will be for their mana.
I like your suggestion, but the information would have to be pretty limited or whoever masterminds a better plan will snowball fast. Maybe it could tell you the first 2 drags, but not in order. Otherwise every time there is a fire drag first they will just pick someone who can solo it really early.

LegitBacon66Jan 9, 20172 votes

What are the chances of you picking a seige push tower comp and all you get is cloud dragons?

PartholonianJan 10, 20173 votes

Zero, if you're taking them at a reasonable pace. There will be at least four non-elder dragons and the same one can only spawn up to 3 times.

On the other hand, if you're sieging someone and you do happen to have triple cloud, not only are you much harder to hit with skillshots, you can back off just out of vision when your wave dies and be anywhere on the map by the time the other team realizes you're not coming in again with the next wave. (Requires some vision denial, but moving around the map faster also makes it much easier to gain and deny vision. It's not just fights and objectives that you're guaranteed to get to first.)

idontgiveabotherJan 9, 20174 votes

Im 99% sure infernal drakes are more likely to spawn when the enemy team is winning... or maybe im just that unlucky. Back to your point about there being 4 dragons that spawned. What if each dragon only spawned once for a set amount of time? Maybe it could be in a set order too to get rid of rng then determine if it's worth taking a fight for the dragon before it despawns and stuff like that. This might actually make it strategic and all RNG would be eliminated.

Gnart Even CloseJan 10, 20174 votes

They actually specifically said it was determined in game to AVOID having team comps built around it. The point of it is to force people to adapt their strategy in-game rather than have preset paths.

For example, you have a siege/poke comp against an enemy engage/teamfight comp. Ocean Drake is more valuable to you than to the enemy team, but it is important for the enemy team to deny you the dragon.

If you you are playing against a team with a splitpushing champion like Tryndamere, it is very important to deny Earth Drake and Cloud Drake so he can't take towers and rotate as effectively.

The different dragons have different values in-game based on decisions made in champ select not based on what dragons would spawn. You can't count on what drakes will spawn, so you shouldn't base team comps around them. What changes is the value of the dragon relative to other objectives. In one case, it might be more important to take a dragon over a tower or Rift Herald, but that isn't the best decision in other scenarios.

If they said what dragons would spawn, it would defeat the entire purpose of the dragons. You would already have one pre-determined strategy from champ select rather than adapt and make meaningful decisions as you see what dragons spawn next. The general consensus (at least from what I've seen) is that the elemental drakes were a massive success over the previous systems and have done exactly what they were supposed to do.

ModAcademy KaynJan 10, 20174 votes

The point of the randomness is to decide the value of the drag in the game, not outside. If you happen to have a siege comp, Ocean drag would be more valuable than say Mountain or Wind. If you have good splitpushers on your side, Wind and Mountain are much better than Ocean. Infernal is a drag that is simply valuable to all, regardless of comp, so you still have something you want to contest it over with.

VerdadeJan 9, 20171 votes

Infernal snowball LUL. You clearly have no idea what infernal does

420 gramsJan 9, 201712 votes

Gives you a huge increase in damage that at full build wouldn't have otherwise been available without costing any gold?

VerdadeJan 9, 20172 votes

Funny things in your post: -huge increase in damage -full build snowball

AnidanJan 9, 20176 votes

I've never seen a game that considers an 8% stacking increase to be anything but huge, or at the very least, big, in a game where damage is important and often in larger increments than double digits.

VerdadeJan 9, 20172 votes

Infernal gives you like 4% damage AT BEST and WITH FULL BUILD

AnidanJan 9, 20175 votes

Since it gives 8/16/24% AD and AP, I'm going to need you to back up your claim with math or post a link to someone who wasn't lazy enough to just claim things and present zero convincing evidence because he saw the argument somewhere and thinks everyone has to know that it's a universal truth if they just close their eyes and believe hard enough.

VerdadeJan 9, 20174 votes

Okay.

Lux: P: 190+.2 AP Q: 250+.7 AP E: 240+.6 AP R: 500+.75 AP Thunderlords: 180+.1 AP Considering she does her standard QEPRP combo, it deals 1550+2.55AP

Math is rather simple. At 0 AP she deals 1550 damage, 1550 with infernal. So, obviously, infernal gives her 0% damage increase At 300 AP she deals 2315 damage, 2376 with infernal. One stack gives her 2.64% damage increase At 600 AP she deals 3080 damage, 3202 with infernal. One stack gives her 3.97% damage increase

Wanna another?

Vel'koz: P: 169+.5 AP Q: 240+.6 AP W: 275+.4 AP E: 190+.3 AP R: 800+1.25 AP Thunderlords: 180+.1 AP

QWEPRP: 2023+3.35 AP 0 AP: 2023 damage, 2023 damage with infernal, 0% damage increase 300 AP: 3028 damage, 3108 damage with infernal, 2.6% damage increase 600 AP: 4033 damage, 4193 damage with infernal, 3.9% damage increase

Now, show me which Vel'koz or Lux has 300 or more AP in early/mid game. As i said, you can't really snowball off infernals, if anything, infernals are LATE-GAME BUFF. Additionaly, it does basically NOTHING on tanks, bruisers, attack speed stackers and supports, as it scales off BONUS AD and AP If you want snowball drake go for Cloud

AnidanJan 9, 20176 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/50btpg/the_true_value_of_infernal_drake_a_nuanced_damage/

It's not as simple as you're making it out. 4% at most, my ass. Don't mislead people.

WimbledofyJan 9, 20173 votes

at best it gives like 12% dmg increase or somethign like that for jhin, at worst it's like 2% for someone like gragas. For all AD champs it is approximately an 8% dmg increase, and with 3 drags that's 3x that amount.

VerdadeJan 9, 20173 votes

see my other post

WimbledofyJan 10, 20173 votes

you said at best and didn't list a single ad champ