[Kalista] Have Slows Reduce her Hop Distance

Eyrgos··131 votes·4,732 views

Brilliant suggestion is brilliant.

Special mechanic, much wow.

X% slow could reduce hop distance by X% or some ratio'd Y%.

Obviously, appropriate rebalancing elsewhere would be required.

This change alone would give her appropriate counterplay, however.

Rito's favorite buzz word.

{quoted}

We tried this during her development. There were two problems:

  1. Scaling dash distance off speed was easily broken through speed buffs, making her completely unassailable (which meant we had to cap it, which made MS feel like a useless stat).

  2. More importantly, it undermined one of the core games we ask the Kalista player to play. One element of Kalista's passive is the fixed distance nature of the effect. Much like Tumble, the player doesn't have complete freedom to choose the exact place to which they will travel. They can only opt to stand still, or to move to any point on the perimeter of a circle centered on their starting position. Combine this a few times and it leads to some interesting pathing decisions in a fight, since your first dash may be better cast 45 degrees off from your ideal travel direction to maintain optimal spacing from enemies. This is similar in some ways to planning out the knight's movement across a chessboard.*

In the end, we chose a model where hastes/slows changed the speed of her dash (specifically, the dash speed is MSx2.5)...

I suppose that accomplishes virtually the same goal, however, I think you guys must make the negative effect (slowing) more crippling/potent.

The positive side is fine as-is, the negative 'counterplay' aspect needs buffing.

It's hardly accomplishing its goal.

Also, you should apply this dash-slowing effect to all dashes in the game... mobility creep solved.

But you're CertainlyT, of course you wouldn't want to risk fixing your broken, overloaded kits on something healthy for the game & it's balance. Would you?

57 Comments

Critmaster Garen12 votes

been saying this from day 1 of her release.

the fact that ms buffs and slow are completely ineffective against her is nothing short of stupid. and then she has an extra slow on top of her mobility, because fuck you.

qetzel10 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XdEfV8w1-kalistas-dash-speed-is-affected-by-slows?comment=00020000

Confirmed by Meddler, slows do affect her.

By the way - range changes in the middle of a game, particularly in the middle of a fight, are stupid. They lack readability.

Eyrgos7 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XdEfV8w1-kalistas-dash-speed-is-affected-by-slows?comment=00020000

Confirmed by Meddler, slows do affect her.

By the way - range changes in the middle of a game, particularly in the middle of a fight, are stupid. They lack readability.

Good to know, but it obviously isn't potent enough to be a) noticeable or b) impactful enough.

Readability is the wrong word, for one. For two, it's essentially no different than a slow hampering your movement-capability.

By that logic, they should remove slows from the game too.

Slamurai Jack5 votes

{quoted}

Good to know, but it obviously isn't potent enough to be a) noticeable or b) impactful enough.

Readability is the wrong word, for one. For two, it's essentially no different than a slow hampering your movement-capability.

By that logic, they should remove slows from the game too.

It's definitely noticeable to me when I play DrMundo. Kalista is not going to be able to kite me when I keep hitting my cleavers, which is pretty easy to do, since she pretty much has to hop straight backwards in order to create enough distance.

Onimus Terlain4 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XdEfV8w1-kalistas-dash-speed-is-affected-by-slows?comment=00020000

Confirmed by Meddler, slows do affect her.

By the way - range changes in the middle of a game, particularly in the middle of a fight, are stupid. They lack readability.

All that post says is the speed of her dashes is affected.

It doesn't say anything about the actual distance of the hop.

qetzel2 votes

Ii know. I was just letting people know that slows do affect her.

Hong Kong Annie1 votes

The speed she hops is recrudesced but the distance remains the same.

Akali is SO HOT10 votes

Or delete her instead

Keevalroy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwbuIa4L,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-05-01T05:07:04.171+0000)

Or delete her instead

Look at all these Kalista mains downvoting the best suggestion for dealing with her.

Dies to Wolves6 votes

{quoted}

Look at all these Kalista mains downvoting the best suggestion for dealing with her.

so much truth

Marinaras Trench7 votes

She's not op and she doesn't need a nerf. She should be removed from the game according to some, but she definitely isn't op.

crunchymunchys13 votes

{quoted}

She's not op and she doesn't need a nerf. She should be removed from the game according to some, but she definitely isn't op.

Shes not OP but very broken in the fact that if you are playing a skillshot champ good luck hitting her with anything and with the way all champs are becoming skillshot champs this is extremely hard to deal with, not only the fact that she hops double the distance backwards meaning she can kite you till the end of time.

Rew7113 votes

Firstly, I'd like to see a slow effect her jumps, but it would also mean they need in air Kalista throwing spears (which is just more work but nice in the end for us as we play against her).

Second, we need a maximum damage cap on her E for monsters and a small time limit (say, 5/4.5/4/4.5/3 seconds) to have spears in enemies before they disappear. Her E is ridiculous as every ADC has a damage cap.

Narasimha2 votes

a small time limit (say, 5/4.5/4/4.5/3 seconds) to have spears in enemies before they disappear.

They last for 4 seconds. If she doesn't reapply it in 4 seconds, all stacks disappear. What, you didn't think they stayed forever, did you?

Rew7114 votes

They stay there as long as she continues to hit you, which can go up from 3 to 30 spears. Not to mention the slow...

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

that doesnt make sense to say 5/4/4.5/3.5/3 seconds then. so her spears last longer in enemies at rank one than rank 5?

Rew7111 votes

True, but would you want to see a Kalista that throws 2 spears a second, get allowed 5 seconds?

Her E deals 20/30/40/50/60 initial damage + 10/14/19/25/32 for each additional.

It would be best to limit it to at least 6 spears at max rank to only allow 220 damage. Not including the extra 60% from her AD.

Twitch's E at max rank can only deal 210 with max stacks. Her E would still be better.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

it goes against reason to have an ability give a shorter window of opportunity at higher ranks than lower ranks. all the abilities in the game get stronger as you rank them up - they dont have a gimmicky give/take when you level them up.


and 220 damage at max rank? think about what youre suggesting,

Twitch has an attack speed buff, attack damage buff, range buff to give him the longest range autoattacks in the game, AOE autoattacks, and true damage DoT in his kit to make up for his E doing only 210 extra damage. and even then he isnt a competitive pick.

Kalista has little in her kit besides her normal autoattack to apply stacks. (you could say her Q, but it still requires basic, 550 range, non AS buffed, non AD buffed autoattacks to apply each stack, then the Q to pass them on). without itemizing for it, she has nothing in her kit to apply the stacks to multiple members, and even with a runnans she has a hard time applying all the stacks to all 5 members of the enemy team.

reducing her damage like that would put her at support poppy tier.

Rew7111 votes

You make it sound like Kalista does nothing. There is a reason why majority of people are not good with her. No one likes the ultimate. Therefore, no one plays as her unless they like her crazy passive, Q, W, and E.

True, Twitch gains long ranged attacks, but the others hit get reduced damage. Also, Kalista's passive + her attack speed can out match Twitch. Twitch can only get 6 stacks on Kalista to deal up to 36 damage per second while Kalista has good AS and by then, lifesteal to counter his passive. Kalista then can dodge Twitch's W with ease and even if hit, it still doesn't affect her passive. Twitch can send out his E but Kalista will by then have put more than 9 stacks and is able to deal more damage with her E.

Also, Kalista has something Twitch does not that Ashe has just received. A passive on her Q that gives a small bonus in damage.

If Twitch had a buff to his passive to deal more damage (being based off 0.05% of his AD) then he might be able to do more.

Also, giving a champion that has a damage ultimate a powerful kit is not fun (see Riven for details), there are champions that do not have damaging ultimates but are considered too strong by the public (look at Shen) and then there are those who are not allowed to get too powerful (see Zac for details). Twitch may have a lot of AA power, but if another champion like Tristana were to also go as AA against Twitch, he'd lose in a heartbeat because of her own range and her more useful (damaging) kit. Same with every other ADC. True, Twitch can deal some great damage with his ultimate and critical and his Q is his major ability but with nothing else, any other ADC can beat him.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

like i said - twitch is not a competitive adc. we can both agree on this.

my question for you, which you havent yet answered why are you trying to put kalista's rend damage as the same as twitch's expunge. EVEN WITH everything in twitch's kit, twitch is not a competitive pick. kalista does not have as much in her kit. nerfing her E damage to twitches would be a stupid idea.

Rew7111 votes

[P] Allows Kalista to deal bonus damage to those who her rend partner is attacking. Also, hop when moving for every shot. [Q] sends out a piercing arrow. [W] 2 wards that move and show a lot of unknown territory. [E] as you know... [R] troll your support and fling them into an area.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

so as an ADC with no steroids, you want to keep her kit the exact same while taking away her biggest source of damage.

that change would honestly make her a better support than an actual ADC. thats not balance.

Keevalroy33 votes

She should be removed from the game according to some

I am in full support of this idea.

Anidan15 votes

I'd sign that petition SO hard.

blueberrypancake4 votes

Agreed

MeesterMoo2 votes

I would just sign it.

Dies to Wolves5 votes

I agree so much that it hurts

Keevalroy6 votes

Or remove the hop.

Junkο1 votes

And make her completely useless?

Keevalroy7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwbuIa4L,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-05-01T08:52:08.345+0000)

And make her completely useless?

Admittedly, there's a part of me screaming "Yes, whatever it takes to get people to stop playing her!" but I understand now that they're still human beings deep down with attachments to this abomination no matter how toxic she is. So I thought of a rework.

One idea I had for a passive less revolting was that after a certain number of auto's or spells, she becomes ethereal and slides to a targeted location. That fits the malevolent spirit of vengeance part of her a hell of a lot more than kangaroo hops, and with this, she could get the same auto attack as any other ranged champion with an increased attack speed to compensate for the loss of her tail and pouch.

I'd say everything else could stay the same, but that E needs a cap, and 254 is not a cap... The fact that she can do more damage than Nunu with smite and use it on players is nothing short of idiocy in terms of design, and this isn't factoring in that horrible hop passive.

  • Slide passive to make her feel more 'spooky'
  • Give her normal autos
  • Increase her attack speed
  • Put a real cap on her E
Remlap12236 votes

I'm perfectly ok with Kalista having "counterplay." She could use a lot more "counterplay" so I don't have to see her again. I hope if they do give her "counterplay" I hope they don't take away her "counterplay" like they did with Veigar.

HailFire Dragon5 votes

gg the best way to try to get someone to rationally listen to your opinions on Their product is by saying this

"But you're CertainlyT, of course you wouldn't want to risk fixing your broken, overloaded kits on something healthy for the game & it's balance."

....

Eyrgos2 votes

[{quoted}](name=HailFire Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwbuIa4L,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-05-01T17:47:44.963+0000)

gg the best way to try to get someone to rationally listen to your opinions on Their product is by saying this

"But you're CertainlyT, of course you wouldn't want to risk fixing your broken, overloaded kits on something healthy for the game & it's balance."

....

Not catering to him.

Keevalroy7 votes

Oh I'm sorry, did you have a better suggestion for conveying the message? Because the way I see it from the monstrosities he's created, he doesn't give a single solitary shit about balance, and I'm willing to bet that he couldn't create a healthy champion if his career depended on it.

Going through his history, every champion he's made has been worse than his previous, though I can't decide between Yasuo and Kalista of who's the worst designed. What does this tell you? It means that the feedback he's received about his broken champions and their poorly designed kits are not only being ignored, but he's actively insulting the people who have a problem with his work by making the most frustrating thing he can think of at the time and pushing it through the PBE as the next new champion.

Please tell me how else we can get the message across that his champions don't belong in League; because he sure as hell isn't caring about the rational responses. Before you go off on me for being irrational, I know I am and I'm not afraid of downvotes. I'm fucking pissed that he's somehow still allowed to touch champions, and can't believe he still has a place on the design team while Zileas shields him for promoting "healthy diversity."

Is he creative? Of course he is, he's a mad scientist of ideas! But that shouldn't give him the ability to bypass Riot's design philosophy time and time again just because he's creative. All designers should have to apply to that, and the way he gets off every time with each new champion is mind boggling and that no one is looking over his shoulder saying "Hey T, this might be a little unhealthy, let's look at the kit and maybe tone it back a few...hundred notches."

This is all my opinion, I don't represent the whole of the community, but I've had enough of seeing his champions. Yasuo was really pushing the limit for me, and Kalista appearing on the roster has pushed me far over the edge of tolerance.

ladention3 votes

Or make her complete the hop slower. But a great idea for nurfing kalista the melee counter

Carpe Victoria3 votes

They do already...? Though considering the amount of times her mechanics have been updated there might be a lot of bugs still.

Wumachine2 votes

you know, i posted this exact idea and it only got 2 upvotes :<

CertainlyT1 votes

We tried this during her development. There were two problems:

  1. Scaling dash distance off speed was easily broken through speed buffs, making her completely unassailable (which meant we had to cap it, which made MS feel like a useless stat).
  2. More importantly, it undermined one of the core games we ask the Kalista player to play. One element of Kalista's passive is the fixed distance nature of the effect. Much like Tumble, the player doesn't have complete freedom to choose the exact place to which they will travel. They can only opt to stand still, or to move to any point on the perimeter of a circle centered on their starting position. Combine this a few times and it leads to some interesting pathing decisions in a fight, since your first dash may be better cast 45 degrees off from your ideal travel direction to maintain optimal spacing from enemies. This is similar in some ways to planning out the knight's movement across a chessboard.*

In the end, we chose a model where hastes/slows changed the speed of her dash (specifically, the dash speed is MSx2.5). We really wanted movement speed to feel like an agility stat, enhancing her ability to dodge skillshots and maintain fine spacing when combined with AS, more than/in addition to a bulk travel distance stat.

*Note that the least interesting decisions here are the straight forward and straight backward dash. Moving forward, I would like to make those less frequently the optimal choice. Doing so without adding a ton of complexity has so far eluded me.

Eyrgos2 votes

{quoted}

We tried this during her development. There were two problems:

  1. Scaling dash distance off speed was easily broken through speed buffs, making her completely unassailable (which meant we had to cap it, which made MS feel like a useless stat).
  2. More importantly, it undermined one of the core games we ask the Kalista player to play. One element of Kalista's passive is the fixed distance nature of the effect. Much like Tumble, the player doesn't have complete freedom to choose the exact place to which they will travel. They can only opt to stand still, or to move to any point on the perimeter of a circle centered on their starting position. Combine this a few times and it leads to some interesting pathing decisions in a fight, since your first dash may be better cast 45 degrees off from your ideal travel direction to maintain optimal spacing from enemies. This is similar in some ways to planning out the knight's movement across a chessboard.*

In the end, we chose a model where hastes/slows changed the speed of her dash (specifically, the dash speed is MSx2.5)...

I suppose that accomplishes virtually the same goal, however, I think you guys must make the negative effect (slowing) more crippling/potent.

It's hardly accomplishing its goal.

bizzle891 votes

Wow, another guy on the "I never played Kalista, but she is OP"-list... :D You wanna know, why Riot won't listen to you all? Because of that. Try her out and you'll see by yourself, that she has some weaknesses. But yeah let her farm up, don't poke her, let her get level 6 and she will all in and destroy you. Because that's her thing and everyone knows that ;) Now pls, downvote for telling the truth. Btw. When and why did this Kalista-is-op-thing start (1-2 Weeks ago??)? It's not like she was changed the last months :D Maybe sad tanks?

Dies to Wolves6 votes

{quoted}

Wow, another guy on the "I never played Kalista, but she is OP"-list... :D You wanna know, why Riot won't listen to you all? Because of that. Try her out and you'll see by yourself, that she has some weaknesses. But yeah let her farm up, don't poke her, let her get level 6 and she will all in and destroy you. Because that's her thing and everyone knows that ;) Now pls, downvote for telling the truth. Btw. When and why did this Kalista-is-op-thing start (1-2 Weeks ago??)? It's not like she was changed the last months :D Maybe sad tanks?

TIL that when playing a melee top laner I'm somehow supposed to stop the enemy bot lane from farming and getting level 6

Trumpet3 votes

The Kalista op train left the station the day she was unveiled on the PBE and hasn't stopped since.

lB2kGRlc8y4 votes

Poke her? Are you dumb? That's one of the things her cancer hops makes irrelevant. Unless you're annie or pre rework ryze, there isn't any poking that can be done.

Father Cthulhu1 votes

If this went through people like Nautilus Janna Zilean and Nasus would be her hardest counters.

Keevalroy12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Galifrey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwbuIa4L,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-05-01T16:45:51.726+0000)

If this went through people like Nautilus Janna Zilean and Nasus would be her hardest counters.

And?

Dies to Wolves7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Galifrey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwbuIa4L,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-05-01T16:45:51.726+0000)

If this went through people like Nautilus Janna Zilean and Nasus would be her hardest counters.

meanwhile she is one of the hardest counters to a SHIT TON of melees

Ristos1 votes

and thats a bad thing?

Vistha Kai1 votes

I'd love to see slows applying also to dashes. Not the distance but to how fast they go.

atomicwit1 votes

She already has less damage than traditional ADCs due to the lack of steroids and you want to make her core identity awkward? Slows are everywhere, especially if someone buys Rylai's so this would just ruin her and make playing her very unnatural. I don't think she needs any nerf but I'd rather Rend get a damage cap vs monsters or literally any other nerf than something that takes away the reason to play her. Even if they buffed something else to compensate, it would still be unsatisfying to play.

Keevalroy1 votes

She already has less damage than traditional ADCs due to the lack of steroids and you want to make her core identity awkward?

Her core identity takes the form of a marsupial...yes, because taking that away is the "awkward" part. Okay.

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