Riot has contradicted a lot of their design and balance filosophy

iTaLenTZ··4 votes·1,409 views

Poppy OlafKayle : The term 'Olafed' meant a champ would get nerfed so hard out of viability because he lacked counterplay. Their R was considered a misstake for many years. Morello once said Poppy was such a toxic design if she ever became viable she would instantly be crippled by the balance team. Kayle was considered a toptier champ for many years just because of her R and therefore got nerfed a lot of times. Pairing her up with a hypercarry adc and you would easily outscale any team. Fiora: Being untargetable while dealing a ton of damage wasn't considered healthy gameplay Rengar: He got reworked because he deleted players from stealth without time to react or give proper counterplay Yorick: The defenition of uninteractive laning experience. You simply could not interact with Yorick because all he did was push the lane and bully you out of it without giving you windows of opportunities or any player agency over your lane. Was heavily nerfed for years out of viability.

For the past 3 years we have seen a lot of champs added or reworked with invulnerability abilities in their kit. It used to be seen as toxic design because by definition it lacks counterplay and takes out a lot of player agency from the game. It becomes rock, paper sciccor. Hower balanced that game is, picking rock to defeat sciccor doesn't feel satistying while sciccor feels absolutely miserable because there was nothing he could do to prevent it. Therefore I don't understand why so many champs have invulnerabilities in their kit nowadays.

1 Untargetable abilities

Old Fiora = Kayn RekSai Evelynn Rakan Warwick CamilleXayah

All these champs now have an R that makes them untargetable/or give them cc immunity while dealing their damage or in case of Rakan using utility while being cc immune. They press R and you watch and pray without much or any player agency. Camille pressed R and she isolates a target. Only counterplay is to kill her before she kills your wincodition. In the case of Warwick I don't understand why it is intended that he follows things like flash or dashes and why you can't displace him while he is ulting. i think the cc immunity has overloaded his already strong kit. It seriously feels like we are back where we started. Last is Xayah. I really think its a design misstake to give an adc so much self peel. On top of it she can use her R to dodge skillshots and in turn root and kill you.

2 Oneshotters with lack of counterplay due to stealth/camouflage Old Rengar = Khazix Shaco Twitch Evelynn Vayne.

You now have basically more champs that do the same he used to but are even better at it. There have been countless threaths about Twitch but one I can still recall very easily. Someone once calculated that the human time to react to a Twitch coming out of stealth and AA'ing you from his ult range is on pair with 3 auto attacks which means you probably died. The existance of a ranged AoE item 3085 rengar to me is mind boggling. Shaco simply walks to your backline and backstabs/oneshots your carry with item 3147 and thus deletes your only wincondition. Kha is literally old rengar now but without the indicator. So he is a worse offender. Eve is the most similar to Rengar because at least you get an indicator she is coming to charm you and you have some time to react. IMO the fairest of all the listed above. After Vayne's Q got changed she is more an assasin of squishies. Tumbling into stealth to deal insane crits on point and rightclick from range to any squishy just isn't fun to play against. It definitely feels more like playing against an assasin than an adc. Heck even most assasins can't jump on her because she will tumble out, stun you against a wall and kill you in 3 AA's while healing herself.

3 Uninteractive lane experience/lack of player agency for opponent

old Yorick = Malzahar Caitlyn Illaoi Ivern Azir

I forgot about Azir because he is been dumpstered I never see him any more. However he stills shows up at pro play. He is like a Heimerdinger but his 'turrets' are invulnerable and he can manipulate them to bully you out of lane while safely scale into lategame monster. Riot knos Azir is a balance problem and probably gave them a headache or three already.

Malzahar is now the posterchild of uninteresting uninteractive lane experience for both him and his opponent. From a champ who got hardly any changes during 5 years into a reworked mess that is pidgeonholed into lanepushing until jungler shows up to press R because on his own he can't get anything done. His spellshield discourages to interact with him while Malzahar himself isn't encouraged to interact with his opponent because he gets oom and doesn't have kill potential on his own.

I mention Caitlyn because I feel like she is worse to play against now prior to her rework. Lanebully by design but she got even better at. Pushing lane, farming safely from distance with an escape and spamming your tower with traps without you having a say in it isn't really fun. She has a strong early game with very powerful scaling and is a very good champ to siege towers because she can stay out of most abilities range.

Illaoi is my permaban top. She is so extremely unsatisfying to lane against. Her desgin to me is very toxic and a lot worse than old Yorick. A lane should not be decided by 'dodge her E'. The fact that she can bully you even out of tower range is insane. She is just too strong of a pick into other melee champs it screams rock, paper sciccor. You feel absolutely miserable laning against her when there is nothing you can do to determine the outcome. She literally decided a game in champ select. Terrible design.

Though he is not a laner I mention Ivern because there really isn't much interaction with his jungle clears. When he is strong and meta he is obnoxious to play against and feels unfair.

4 Invulnerable

old Poppy Olaf Kayle = Bard Kindred XinZhao Taric Malzahar

Bard is a stasis and out of all new champs the most fair. Kindred, Xin and Taric are definitely unfair whenever they are strong meta picks. It is not a coincidence Kindred has been trashtier for some time now. Taric's ult really reminds me of poppy but you can misstime or miss coordination with your team and completely miss its usefulness. Other than his ult he feels very lackluster compared to any other enchanter support.Now xin got added invulnerability as well. Again we see Malzahar with his passive. A part from Bard a really don't think any of them have good healthy designs.

5 The new kid on the block: RNG

Tryndamere = Zoe

Where Tryndamere decides lanes with random crits Zoe can decide games with random summoner spells being dropped. Its just the same faulty game design in a new cover. And it seems with the upcoming scuttle changes we will get more RNG added in the future so don't be surprised if we see it added on more champs as well.

Conclusion As you can see a lot of old design wisdom and filosophy has been throwed out the window. What used to be considered toxic and broken game design is now become common. We have witnessed a lot of untargetable and invulerabilities added to the game which in turn decrease overall player agency and leaves opponents feeling very frustrated when facing such champs. The same can be said for stealth assasins. For years people complained about old Rengar who is now a shadow of his former self while newer champs or reworks are far worse than he even was. It just doesn't make any sense from a game design point of view to rework champs because soemthing about them makes them toxic and then include those same features onto other champs.

16 Comments

Dead flag blues7 votes

Let me add some more :

"We'd never allow true damage to have a scaling"

Chogath Fiora Zoe Camille Conqueror

"We'd never allow a champion to take control of another ally champion"

TahmKench Kalista

Luminev1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PpEYIBp3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:31:52.286+0000)

Let me add some more :

"We'd never allow true damage to have a scaling"

Chogath Fiora Zoe Camille Conqueror

"We'd never allow a champion to take control of another ally champion"

TahmKench Kalista

Thank you.

Luminev3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PpEYIBp3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:31:52.286+0000)

Let me add some more :

"We'd never allow true damage to have a scaling"

Chogath Fiora Zoe Camille MasterYi Conqueror

"We'd never allow a champion to take control of another ally champion"

TahmKench Kalista

FTFY

And yes they did make Yi's true damage scale. It scales with his AD.

Luminev3 votes

Warwick Rakan Do not have untargetable. Rakan W and E don't make him untargetable just very fast. Same with WW ult. You can even point and click cc them if you react fast enough.

XinZhao Malzahar Xin zhao does not have invuln. He has a shield in his ult that blocks incoming attacks similar to Yasuo wind wall. Malzahar has a mini banshees.

While yes Riot has been inconsistent in their design philosophies you attacked all the wrong places. A lot of the examples of "contradictions" you mentioned were iterations where they actually made the mechanic balanced. Fiora's old ult was AOE, made her untargetable, and did insane damage. Kayn's ult is single target, has to be somewhat near them, and must deal damage to the target before cast. They make new iterations of these abilities and properly balance them, it's not them making contradictions. And again, yes they do make contradictions, you just failed to point them out properly.

EDIT: RNG one is fine, just most of the points in this post are questionable.

iTaLenTZ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zoe Q is Trash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PpEYIBp3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:34:57.880+0000)

Warwick Rakan Do not have untargetable. Rakan W and E don't make him untargetable just very fast. Same with WW ult. You can even point and click cc them if you react fast enough.

XinZhao Malzahar Xin zhao does not have invuln. He has a shield in his ult that blocks incoming attacks similar to Yasuo wind wall. Malzahar has a mini banshees.

While yes Riot has been inconsistent in their design philosophies you attacked all the wrong places. A lot of the examples of "contradictions" you mentioned were iterations where they actually made the mechanic balanced. Fiora's old ult was AOE, made her untargetable, and did insane damage. Kayn's ult is single target, has to be somewhat near them, and must deal damage to the target before cast. They make new iterations of these abilities and properly balance them, it's not them making contradictions. And again, yes they do make contradictions, you just failed to point them out properly.

EDIT: RNG one is fine, just most of the points in this post are questionable.

Nevermind about Rakan then I though his ult made him untargetable. I know about Warwick. I know he is not completely untargetable and what i mention is that you can't displace him which is really annoying. I know everything I mentioned are mostly iterations but I still don't find them fun to play against. Most still have the same problems the old designs had. They should just have moved away from adding untargetable and invulnerable to the game or at least not in this amount.

Luminev2 votes

{quoted}

Nevermind about Rakan then I though his ult made him untargetable. I know about Warwick. I know he is not completely untargetable and what i mention is that you can't displace him which is really annoying. I know everything I mentioned are mostly iterations but I still don't find them fun to play against. Most still have the same problems the old designs had. They should just have moved away from adding untargetable and invulnerable to the game or at least not in this amount.

That's fine, but I also forgot to mention Kindred has been trashtier because her kit is very underpowered. Whenever she makes it into meta it's only because she gets overtuned and becomes a god of raw numbers. Heck to even become somewhat powerful when she's not overtuned she has to risk her life going into the enemy jungle.

iTaLenTZ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zoe Q is Trash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PpEYIBp3,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:51:16.417+0000)

That's fine, but I also forgot to mention Kindred has been trashtier because her kit is very underpowered. Whenever she makes it into meta it's only because she gets overtuned and becomes a god of raw numbers. Heck to even become somewhat powerful when she's not overtuned she has to risk her life going into the enemy jungle.

On this I absolutely agree. I probably didn't explain myself in my OP well enough but I believe untargetable and invulnerable abilities take a lot of champions powerbudget leaving the rest of their kit most of the time underwhelming to say the least (looking at Taric, Kindred, Malzahar and Kayle specifically). I know Malz has a spellshield but the result of often the same that you can't jump on him instantly when out of position. Champions are then balanced around best possible outcomes. Malz passive has been nerfed countless of times already. Kindred has received tons of nerfs to the rest of her kit. Taric's ult can be extremely OP when used on 5 but when used on 1 or 2 it can feel mediocre. This leaves little room for balance.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I find it odd you point out warwick, when yasuo was (and still is) straight up designed to screw over most ranged champions, but I'd say he'd be in the uninteractive category. Also kled is untargetable when changing between being mounted, not to mention fizz's jump, or zed's ultimate; though the reworked fiora I'd also say should be in the uninteractive group since they gave her an ability negation effect, along with azir since he plays like the old yorick but more mobile and crowd control. Great post though!

And to add to it with a few paraphrases, which have some overlap. ''We want to make champions simpler to read and play, both for and against.'' Kalista Ekko Zoe Ivern Camille Leblanc

Of course there's ''Enemies should plenty of reaction time against more powerful effects.'' Lulu Quinn Yasuo Kaisa Xayah Urgot Katarina

As well as ''We don't want generalists to shove out the specialists by doing their jobs better.'' Lucian Gnar Thresh Kled LeeSin Ornn Rakan Swain KogMaw

iTaLenTZ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PpEYIBp3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-05-01T18:20:56.978+0000)

I find it odd you point out warwick, when yasuo was (and still is) straight up designed to screw over most ranged champions, but I'd say he'd be in the uninteractive category. Also kled is untargetable when changing between being mounted, not to mention fizz's jump, or zed's ultimate; though the reworked fiora I'd also say should be in the uninteractive group since they gave her an ability negation effect, along with azir since he plays like the old yorick but more mobile and crowd control. Great post though!

And to add to it with a few paraphrases, which have some overlap. ''We want to make champions simpler to read and play, both for and against.'' Kalista Ekko Zoe Ivern Camille Leblanc

Of course there's ''Enemies should plenty of reaction time against more powerful effects.'' Lulu Quinn Yasuo Kaisa Xayah Urgot Katarina

As well as ''We don't want generalists to shove out the specialists by doing their jobs better.'' Lucian Gnar Thresh Kled LeeSin Ornn Rakan Swain KogMaw

I don't mention Yasuo because he is relatively old compared to the others. However I would agree about Yasuo especially when he stands on top of his windwall.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Old yes, but more universally hated than leesin, who mind you was THE staple jungler for a good four consecutive seasons; back in his hayday leesin wasn't on everyone's top ten ban list, which should say something about yasuo's design, even with terrible rate data.

Big Lincoln1 votes

illaoi toxic lole

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

If even doesnt one shot, then wtf should she do? I could be wrong, but i think evelynn was the first champ that was an assassin and had access to stealth. And evelynn needs to be untargetable with her ulti. Otherwise she would be unable to disengage after a fight. Thats how assassins work, they go in for a kill and go out.

wildfox991 votes

3 Uninteractive lane experience/lack of player agency for opponent

never forget -put here any enchanter support-

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

iTaLenTZ1 votes

{quoted}

Generally agree with you, but Warwick and Rakan don't have abilities that make them untargetable. It only makes them CC immune, but still able to take damage.

Thanks I will change that

Wind Whistler1 votes

If we can have all of this shit that people consider unfair in the game today, then why can't I have Yorick back? : (

It's even worse for champions like Galio. What kind of fucking problem did he even have? Now he's a balance nightmare.

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