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How crit is holding back this game and should be removed:

SaltyToplaneGoat··34 votes·1,641 views

So, every now and then there is a discussion on crit coming up here on the boards and especially with the Marksman changes coming for the preseason things are getting interesting again.

And after thinking about it a little and even trying to figure out a no-crit-build to wonder how it plays like I've come to the following conclusion: crit should be removed. Honestly, it should have been gone when they deleted dodge, but I'm not that worried about it because it's RNG, altho that is a problem in it's own - no, there are even more problems that crit causes:

Problem 1: Crit is extremly strong - and pretty much a reason people hate it is that at a certain point the enemy marksman just hits you two times with a basic move and almost murders you with it. This makes balancing tricky too...

Problem 2: There is literally zero item diversity for ADCs. You either grab dat crit or you lose. Only a really small group of ADCs can get away with special gimmicy builds (such as MF with this build: item 3071 item 3006 item 3072 item 3025 + situational with AD / Or some Blue Ezreal), but most of them are forced to go for crit. If you compare this to AP champions, also a very squishy damage-class, this is absolutely laughable. With AP you have options, mostly depending on the champion you are playing. ADC has been pretty much the same thing since the release of the game.

Problem 3: It totally fucks over the initial champion design. Because, why use abilities when you could just use basic attacks for more damage? Why do you even have a kit if it's almost completly overshadowed by a basic action? Why do we even bother having different adcs when they all play just so extremly similiar (caster-types excluded)?.

When I tried out this MF build I showed above it was the first time I actually enjoyed playing an ADC: because with my items my playstyle was a lot more ability focussed: I didn't just right-click people to death like some caster minion on steroids, I ACTUALLY PLAYED THE CHAMPION.

I've seen people complaining that this game has become stale - well, if you want to get some fresh wind in here, why not touch up the one class of champions that is pretty much still stuck in season one development wise?

As I see it, ADCs have three "sub"-classes:

1.) Spammy AD mage (Urgot, Ezreal, MF maybe), focus on poke and kiteing, often have to deal with mana issues

2.) "Classic" long range dps (Cait, Trist, Jinx, etc.) - focus in positioning and are easy to "get cought", but weight it up with constant DPS

3.) Close combat (Vayne, Lucian, etc.) - focus on being a bit "closer to danger", focus on kiting and dodging stuff with abilities.

So, when you look at the items you have to design at least one for every group specifically. Each of them presents a unique group, such as the "Juggernauts" present one and have certain items that just go well with their playstyle. But with crit existing, every adc is forced to play like the "classic" group - pretty much killing the diversity in play that we could have.

We might have to tweak Yasuo and completly rework Tyndramere if we removed crit, but that's in the realm of whats possible I think - Tyndra needs a massive rework anyways...

Tl, dr: Remove crit, make marksmen more unique by pushing the focus on their AD-scaling abilities. It might be better for the game as a whole.

87 Comments

LaughingMan1115 votes

My biggest issue with crit is it really turns an ADC's damage from being (mostly) additive like it is on pretty much everyone else, to multiplicative. Between their up to almost 3 AA's per second, and their ability to crit, they suddenly go from dealing decent AA damage, (which is fine) to doing almost APC spell damage almost 3 times per second. The AS/Crit combo really compounds the damage an ADC puts out, if it were just AS + AA, it would be fine, it would pretty much be the mirror to CDR + AP for APC or AD + CDR for the ADCasters. But since only AA's can crit without having a special effect added to them, They suddenly go, AA x Crit D. + AS x Crit %. Not only that but like you being able to survive an attack that would normally have killed you b/c dodge, you can die from an attack that normally wouldnt have b/c of crit. RNGesus hates you some days, other days hes like, Nah you're cool bro, you can live today.

SymbolicFear3 votes

That's why ADCs are so squishy and easy to kill when caught out or focused. They are SUPPOSED to deal INSANE amounts of damage in a short period of time while being quick to die when not protected.

LaughingMan111 votes

{quoted}

That's why ADCs are so squishy and easy to kill when caught out or focused. They are SUPPOSED to deal INSANE amounts of damage in a short period of time while being quick to die when not protected.

Right but because of lifesteal on top of their insane damage, they heal for 300+ HP per hit, (which like i said before is almost 3 times per second) so they're healing for almost 900 HP per second from a safe distance before you get to them, and because of their insane damage, unless you can instantly burst them before 3 seconds have passed or you have a lot of CC to stop them from AA-ing, it doesnt matter how squishy they are b/c LS + ADC AA damage is crazy strong.

SymbolicFear3 votes

Again, that's the point... You are SUPPOSED to CC them and get rid of them in that fashion or they will just kill you. Are you one of those kids who play the most OP champions and are just complaining cause your Garen got kited or something?

Mathbalnase1 votes

{quoted}

Right but because of lifesteal on top of their insane damage, they heal for 300+ HP per hit, (which like i said before is almost 3 times per second) so they're healing for almost 900 HP per second from a safe distance before you get to them, and because of their insane damage, unless you can instantly burst them before 3 seconds have passed or you have a lot of CC to stop them from AA-ing, it doesnt matter how squishy they are b/c LS + ADC AA damage is crazy strong.

What ADC, with what build, heals for 900HP per second against what (realistic) enemy champion (with their own realistic build)? Please, show your math in full.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmm, let me think a bit.

item 3072 item 3046 item 3031 item 3006 item 3153 item 3065

I can see this working against a really AP heavy team and it gives you >30% lifesteal on every hit. 750 raw damage per (crit) hit, so you pretty much would reg 240 per (crit) hit. (not taking resistances in consideration here that might cute this down a little), Since you have 2 attack speed items you will be hitting often and hard and high armor targets don't have the damage as you simply outsustain them in a head on battle.

The theoretical 240 are not 300+ per hit, but with like 2 attacks per seconds the heals will come in fast and also getting constant 200 heals is still strong - heck, even 150 heals would be still strong.

Ah btw, does the Bork passive on hit damage go with lifesteal?

Mathbalnase2 votes

Not including enemy build (resistances) or penetration math makes these value estimates functionally worthless.

This build would be lucky to be dealing 150-200 damage per average hit to the enemy tank, with even the enemy carry taking only about 400

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Would kill the tank in 10 seconds I guess without the use of a single ability - if it was a 1vs1 battle that is. But tanks are not important in this equation as those are not your main enemies anyways as your target are less tanky champions.

Taking 400 damage with every hit with two attacks per second means death in three seconds on most squishies without the use of a single ability - who I doubt posess more than 3k health. Six hits. While restoring over a 133 per hit, making that 800 over the fight.

Now saying that you, mathematically correct only crit every second hit meaning you take 50% more time than I just calculated: 4,5 seconds. to murder someone squishy or nine simple basic attacks.

Now, we want resistances in there too? Let's go full rambo and swap the Spirit Visage against a Last Whisper and do the math again. Suddenly the number of hits needed to kill a squishy decreases remarkably. Who cares when the heal goes down? No need to heal when the enemy is dead.

Well, but this is not really the point of the thread. You were asking for a hypothetical kit and I tried to think of one.

Mathbalnase2 votes

The original claim was 'almost 900 heal per second'.

You've managed to provide evidence for a roughly 800 heal over roughly 3 seconds.

I think the evidence you've presented does a fine job of disproving that original claim.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

I never supported the claim, I myself was curious if one could reach so much heal so I threw in a possibly viable build that was suitable for this.

Result: Crit gives a ton of damage and sustain. Oh my god. WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN?

SaltyToplaneGoat9 votes

They are not suppoed to deal insane damage tho. It's like a devoius cricle: but they are so quishy -> needs more damage -> too much damage, so OP! -> make them more squishy -> they are too squishy... and so on and so on.

In my opinion a marksman does not need to deal "insane" damage but "enough" damage - everything else is uneeded overkill that eats away the potential power budget and diversity this class could have.

Even in a zero-crit build you usually rack up 200-350 AD (varies on itemisation, buffs, etc) that is a not-dodgeable small nuke coming in almost twice a second. People seem to forget just how much this is. I wouldn't mind if Marksmen would need a few more seconds to kill beefy targets, after all they still could blow up a squishy mage in a few seconds - and that without using a single ability or using mana.

If we can make the class a bit less squishy but just keep them "vulnerable enough", then maybe the game would finally stop revolving around protecting the right-clicking bot on your team at all costs and turn to something maybe more interesting...

SymbolicFear3 votes

The only time an ADC deals too much damage is when they have % health damage or too high of scaling ratios. Course, the later is insanely rare. Besides, you are complaining about the weakest role in the game right now. The only ADC that needs a nerf is Vayne, and she is getting it.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

Every ADC has access to % health damage with BorK, so... not sure what you are trying to say here.

Let me rephrase that: too much damage in a too small time window. Of course even a raw-AD/Zero-crit Marksman will do amazing damage if you let him shoot long enough, especially when an item like Black Cleaver is involed (my personal experience).

The difference is that the damage is applied in a constant fashion that allows you to estimate the outcome of a battle better, which turns marksmen duels into a battle of skill, strategy and situation judgement and not "hoping for my 25% crit to come on more often for me than it does for the other guy".

Also they might need a few more shots to kill an enemy without crit, but the overall constant damage is higher and a lot more reliable.

I personally like this approach because it gives enemies a prolonged time window in where they can fight an ADC head on instead of getting critted down before they can even start using their abilities.

Currenlty ADCs are overshadowed by Riot releasing tanks that pretty much deal the damage of ADCs (Yaaaay... juggernaut update...), and before in the tank meta there was just too much cc going around. But eventually the juggernauts will be tuned down, tanks already had nerfs coming and I'm not sure what happened to assassins, but if I remember correctly they also got nerfs at some point.

And what happens if you nerfs one thing after another but leave one class alone? Then that one class will be stronger than the others by default.

LithiumWednesday3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PkqeELPo,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-10-10T18:16:17.362+0000)

Even in a zero-crit build you usually rack up 200-350 AD (varies on itemisation, buffs, etc) that is a not-dodgeable small nuke coming in almost twice a second. People seem to forget just how much this is. I wouldn't mind if Marksmen would need a few more seconds to kill beefy targets, after all they still could blow up a squishy mage in a few seconds - and that without using a single ability or using mana.

You're describing a bruiser Jax Irelia Trundle

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

A bruiser has usually notabely less damage of what I have described mostly one lifesteal item, trinity, boots and then going tank, is melee (compentsated with mobility) and has often access to hard cc.

That's something entirely different from a champ that builds almost completly glass cannon that might not as fragile as it used to be but still quite easy to shred but has superior damage in return.

Marksmen being a tiny bit like bruisers in the regard that they get better at prolonged fights that include the intended core aspects of the markman class (kite/poke/good positioning)? Sound perfect to me.

LithiumWednesday1 votes

The thing is though, without significant kit changes, removing crit leaves champions that can either be played as casters Ezreal Varus or squishy DPS. Immobile ADCs and ones without good ability scaling get left behind because they're not going to be given the same type of utility, survivabilty, or mobility as melees.

Granted this doesn't account for heavy itemization changes, but they won't have nearly as much of an impact until much later in the game when DPS overshadows burst; resulting gameplay ends up similar to the ~S3 bruiser hell.

Sire Hippington2 votes

thats why crit is discussed now with the marksman changes ahead in preseason, so wide soreat adjustments can be made...

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Indeed, just removing crit and doing nothing else might create a scenario even worse than it is now - but with a wide ranges of changes build around this removal it's something that could bring this game into a better state.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

Except ranged, and y'know, less tanky than those examples.

Aezanthya3 votes

{quoted}

That's why ADCs are so squishy and easy to kill when caught out or focused. They are SUPPOSED to deal INSANE amounts of damage in a short period of time while being quick to die when not protected.

I thought it was the role of the assassins.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

just the most fundamental flaw of crit...it turns carries into assassins while still improving their dps - it´s more of a constant burst than constant dmg.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Yes, that might be the best way to descibre it: A lategame adc deals more damage with every attack than a basic mage spell - and that one costs mana, has a cooldown and can mostly be dodged.

I think it should be obvious that "constant burst" is a concept that almost borders the realm of the absurd...

Earl Eulrich10 votes

can´t agree more. Crit just removes most of the diversity ADCs would have, as it just turns everyone into a rightclick-bot, no matter what else they´d offer. Without Crit we´d see a lot more Diversity in picks and in playstyle...and probably more diversity in the game overall, as the meta wonßt be created around how to deal with adcs in the first place anymore. They might become a class like everyone else...picked for their strengths in certain cases, but not 100%necessary.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

The Meta has undergone a really long list of changes since I started playing years ago and I kind of liked it as it kept the game fresh and interesting. At some point everything was viable (almost) everywhere, but there is only one thing that has never, ever changed: Marksman + Support on botlane.

99.99% of teams playing have a marksman on their team. And assassins were called op? O_o

It's interesting as usually in D&D or other roleplaying games archers were supposed to be supportive characters that worked together with the warriors and mages as a group to fight. They were by no means the "most important character on the party". Sure, they needed protection, but their existence itself was not a game changer. As LoL is a fantasy themed game kind of comes from this tradition it is weird to see this class suddenly being the most powerful thing in the game.

Mathbalnase1 votes

In D&D, the objective is typically to kill the other guy before he kills you. In LoL (or at least LoL on Summoner's Rift), the objective is to kill the enemy's Nexus before he kills yours.

The difference in fundamental objectives can help to explain the difference in standard strategy (including team composition).

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Uhm no, as such games usual involve one ore more quests and killing a dude is an option when he's tring to stand in between you and the goal of the adventure your party is playing. The primary goal is something else but you need to kill the other guy to achieve it. And this is pretty much how LoL works: You have to kill the dude because he stands in between you and winning the game.

GigglingAngel5 votes

I agree ... not that it matters. Riot won't do shit, most likely.

Taigongwang5 votes

Personally, I enjoy the HoTS approach to Critical Strikes. You dont get it through passive items or buffs or whatever, you get it from using an ability. A good example is Falstad with his hammer toss. It acts like a Sivir Q, but you can make it so that while it is in flight, every auto attack crits. There is actual interaction to get this, and the enemy can see when you are about to burst them down with auto attacks. Crit should not be on items, it should be on champion abilities themselves so that the character can be more appropriately balanced around it and for it to be more controllable.

Teridax683 votes

Here are my thoughts:

  • Problem 1: I agree, crit is extremely strong. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing in itself -- explosive autoattacks can feel really good if you're on the giving end (though not always when on the receiving end), and the strength of crit can also be tuned through balance if needed. For example, taking crit damage down to 150% from 200%, or reducing crit chance across the board, would nerf crit if it were too strong. Ultimately, the numerical strength and balance of crit is not a design issue.
  • Problem 2: It is true that there is little item diversity for marksmen, and that crit constrains build decisions somewhat. I don't think crit is the only issue (ADC items in general tend to be stat sticks that offer little room for original gameplay or meaningful choices), but as a stat that just gives marksmen more raw power it's definitely not contributing positively to item diversity right now.
  • Problem 3: This I completely agree with. Crit means standard abilities, even ones that scale really well, will always end up being inferior in damage to simple right-clicking, which also limits the power caster carries can have, as well as how much they can stand out (Ezreal, Lucian and MissFortune are prime examples of this). Twitch also has a kit that feels so empty on its own that he doesn't really feel meaningful through his abilities, a problem with several other marksmen too, and that's likely tied to the fact that marksmen are expected to just right-click opponents to death and scale super hard with items.

With that said, I don't think this means crit needs to be removed. The biggest issue right now with crit, imo, is that it contributes nothing to gameplay, and at worst reduces it: as a stat, it adds a ton of power to autoattack-based combat, but doesn't enrich it beyond just providing more damage, and oftentimes that power means marksmen end up feeling hollow and useless until they get major items. Its randomness is also frustrating for everyone involved, whether it's the marksman who bought a crit item but didn't get lucky enough in a trade, or the player who got chunked and lost lane all because their enemy started out with a 1% crit chance rune and won the RNG's favor. On the flipside, autoattack-based combat is what defines marksmen and their power expression, and three-strike effects like Hyper, Denting Blows or even Silver Bolts (plus Kindred's E), are proof that it's possible to add unique and varied gameplay to that, and therefore make right-clicking fun and interesting for both sides (at least, when Vayne isn't as omnipresent and crazy powerful as she is now :P ). An effect like that would not only allow marksmen to have autoattack-based power beyond just more damage (you could have CC or utility, too, something that would be a lot more difficult to implement as a permanent on-hit effect or random bonus), but could also perhaps allow integration of abilities as well. Heck, with a system like that you could even have non-marksmen itemize for crit too, as champions like Diana, Ekko and TahmKench are all rewarded for consistently autoattacking. Three-strike doesn't have to be the solution to crit, but it shows that crit has the potential to morph into something a lot more fun for everyone involved, and doesn't necessarily have to disappear.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

Well, the thing we should ask ourselves is: is crit even worth all that trouble to even KEEP in the game? The only argument that makes somewhat sense is that "crit prevents marksmen from taking towers too fast", which is kind of flawed in its own, as you could simply buff tower armor vs ranged attacks - and that it barely makes a difference anyway when i take a turret as no-crit MF or as normal AS/Crit adc.

I'm with you when you say Marksmen are supposed to be defined over their powerful use of the basic attack move - but simply slapping a stat on it that says "lol now it's strong" can't be the answer for this. This is where the abilities come in on a champions kit: I really like Lucian in that regard -- his passive automatically combines ability use with basic attacks.

And it's not like there would be no ideas for new items and item mechanics when crit is gone that could massively enrich the gameplay experience - hell with crit out of the window one could start thinking about defensive marksmen items as they can no longer insta-gib everything around and if they can they would have to cut down the attack speed in terms of item choice.

Also active items might be a possibility, especially those that can offer peel, such as a item that causes a knockback upon activation (high cooldown ofc), or maybe an offensive one that enchances your basic attacks if the projectile flies at least X distance (for the "classic" long rangers), encouraging "staying at range", but being useless when the enemy come up close and personal.

Also there might be an item for the "Close Combat" fraction that turns the next basic attack into melee, but it deals massive damage. Kinda a high risk-high reward active.

And that's just stuff my hungover brain just came up with.

Teridax682 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PkqeELPo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-10T17:51:26.454+0000)

Well, the thing we should ask ourselves is: is crit even worth all that trouble to even KEEP in the game?

This is a great question, though I think it also covers multiple aspects of crit at once. Is it worth keeping the current crit system in the game? Not really; the mechanic has a lot of fundamental health and enjoyment issues for little to no addition in gameplay. Is it worth having a system or stat that specifically adds power to basic attacks? I personally think so, provided that effect makes a positive contribution to gameplay and enhances autoattack-based combat beyond just baseline right-clicking. The monopoly marksmen have over reliable tower and objective control is a whole can of worms on its own, but I think it is genuinely good to give marksmen power that doesn't contribute directly to that, as it allows for more nuance between objective control and power in champion-versus-champion combat. Removing crit also just brings down the damage output AD champions have against towers down to fewer factors, which may make balancing even harder overall -- if AD, attack speed, armor pen and maybe CDR are the only stats around, and marksmen still build more of those stats overall, then using the same stats as bruisers or tanks they'd still be impossible to beat in tower destruction.

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PkqeELPo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-10T17:51:26.454+0000)

I'm with you when you say Marksmen are supposed to be defined over their powerful use of the basic attack move - but simply slapping a stat on it that says "lol now it's strong" can't be the answer for this. This is where the abilities come in on a champions kit: I really like Lucian in that regard -- his passive automatically combines ability use with basic attacks.

I completely agree with this. Marksman itemization and power expression tends to be a lot less interesting than that of other champions simply because the height of their power is often designated as just being able to constantly pump damage, and crit as it exists, in spite of its ability to break up monotonous DPS with damage spikes, is a major culprit in making marksman power based on stats and numbers rather than unique kit contributions or high moments in play.

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PkqeELPo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-10T17:51:26.454+0000)

And it's not like there would be no ideas for new items and item mechanics when crit is gone that could massively enrich the gameplay experience

That would definitely address a major point in marksman itemization, in that the current system is pretty boring, repetitive and devoid of meaningful choices or profound gameplay, mainly because almost the entirety of the power of marksman items is based on raw stats, crit included. Even if crit were to not change (and I really, really hope it gets overhauled in the upcoming marksman pass), marksmen would still need items capable of providing more situational and moment-to-moment power. Mirage Blade did a very good job with that, and hopefully we'll get items with similarly new effects, including the ones you mentioned.

With that said, I still think it's possible to have one's cake and eat it too in this situation, by having a system similar to crit in that it would rely heavily on autoattacks, but different in that it would come with more gameplay, and that could include alternate forms of power besides raw damage. For example, if an item got released that had Gnar's Hyper as a passive (though likely heavily watered down), it would allow for powerful bursts of mobility and damage, while at the same time working especially well on heavy autoattackers and adding a ton of additional gameplay to basic attacks, and if another item got released with, say, Denting Blows, you could similarly put power into autoattacks by encouraging sustained trades and adding a substantial reward thereafter. Put enough items with effects like these, and you could have a "crit" system, one that would work really well on autoattack-dependent champions (and therefore marksmen) due to how well it could scale with marksmen builds, but also one that would not only add a lot of unique gameplay to that power, but would additionally allow marksmen to express power through basic attacks in ways other than just more DPS, and therefore make more nuanced and varied contributions to themselves and their team. Farther down, it would also help de-isolate marksman itemization by allowing more classes to opt into crit (AP crit could even become possible, stupid as it sounds in the current context), though likely for different reasons and with different results (marksmen would likely always make better use of crit due to how they stack damage, though just as with item 3153 that would hopefully not limit those items to marksmen).

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

In your first paragraph you talked about the stats they would use, but you forgot something important: ressoruce and ressoruce regeneration. Even if we disregard all the possibilities of defensive marksmen itemization this is till an important thing. With crit gone the dependance on abilities would be higher, which increases the need of resrouce management.

And without crit marksmen would require some defensive options as they need to make themselves a little bit less vulnerable because they have to commit longer in fights which leads to the situation that you cannot get all the stats in properly. Most damage? More attack speed? Ressource? CDR? Apen? Cramming all that into one would be almost impossible especially since different champs focus on differently on stats which ALSO dependes on the preferred playstyle.

Do I want to attack slow but hit really hard or do I want to shoot quick, proc my effects often, but deal less damage? That's one of the questions players would have to ask themselves.

You seem to be really intruged by the idea of stack-on-hits as a alternative to crit - but as that might work as a gimmicy item passive once I doubt this is something that can be used widely. The items for Black Market Brawlers could be a start for this, although I've never really seen someone use Mirage Blade effectively. But that might have just been caused by people not being used to it.

AP crit is a nearly impossible concept right now. A burst mage suddenly dealing double damage with his rotation? That would be a bit too broken if you ask me. Also then we would have to deal with the frustrating nature of RNG in even MORE aspects of the game. Since we have agreed that the mechanic has health and functionality problems it should be common sense to not spread it further over the game.

Sadly crit is not compatible with anything but marksmen (and melee adcs), but there it causes a lot of problems of its own.

As you also mentioned objective control: this is something that can be tuned on the objectives themselves and can be solved without having to tune the champions around it: Tower Armor and damage reducing effects can do the trick here. I'm not seeing many problems with Baron/Dragon as they are usually taken in a bigger group anyways.

BeMyFriendPlease3 votes

Yasuo item 3070 think how his mains would crai.

Please do it

SaltyToplaneGoat7 votes

Don't think Yasuo would change much if they removed crit - dependes on how they exactly make his passive work. Maybe they make it interact with attack speed? I mean, then you can truly be "as fast as the wind" or however this saying goes in english I have no idea not my first language ^^

He might lose some damage, but might get buffed in other areas. I really doubt that this would change him much.

Chaotic Reks2 votes

turn yas into an attack speed assassin

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

It's not necessarily crit itself that's holding back ADC's. It's the fact that Crit Items are stackable.

Dota 2, which ALSO has Crit, has Crit as an UNSTACKABLE STEROID. They then have multiple items that ADCs can take. They have Butterfly (massive AS/Damage with Evasion)/Manta Style (Illusions that deal about an addtional 80% damage to a target), and even Diffusal Blade (Mana burn/Damage). ADCs in Dota 2 have way more diversity in their builds because they don't have to worry about trying to stack crit.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

That would result in a Crit-Cap which would be the item in the game with the highest crit chance which right now is Phantom Dancer with 30%. But sadly every crit-value below 40% is too unreliable to be of good use for the stat and makes that whole "lucky crit" thing even more frustrating in some weird kind of way.

Dota 2 apparently had the idea of "lol let's just give everyone a fair chance of crit then" - but as the mechanic itself just bring so many problems into the game it would be better to remove it and revamp AD itemization with more interesting items. Oh, and maybe touch up some old ADCs in the process...

Champion Skin2 votes

Well then you could just as well make it an AA damage increase (which is pretty much what crit is... in the long run... but in short trades it can give you huge damage increases or nothing at all)

So like instead of getting a crit 30% of the time you would then deal 30% increased damage so then you would get the damage of a crit if you hit a target for about 3 hits

Kuroi862 votes

crit should be removed

sigh

Crit is extremly strong - and pretty much a reason people hate it is that at a certain point the enemy marksman just hits you two times with a basic move and almost murders you with it. This makes balancing tricky too...

And quite literally the ONLY thing keeping marksmen relevant. Not even kidding, until you hit full build, all other champs on the rift will out damage you, and even then you're going to have to be VERY picky about who you go after because they may still mop the floor with you.

There is literally zero item diversity for ADCs.

As far as crit goes, you're right. Though Riot has been making steps to make the remainder of their build options a bit more diverse. (Not saying they're succeeding but they ARE trying.)

It totally fucks over the initial champion design. Because, why use abilities when you could just use basic attacks for more damage?

Faster damage akin to burst. Take Ashe for instance. Ult, Auto, Volley, Auto is going to dole out a TON of damage. ADC are known for their DPS, but in a game where burst is as powerful as it is, without some way for Marksmen to modify their DPS to be relevant before six items, then they need something a bit ridiculous. item 3031 is that ridiculous.

Narasimha2 votes

The major problem that, to my knowledge, has been cited is that crit exists to even the odds. Removing the chance of extra damage means that battles between ADCs will simply boil down to whoever has the better numbers. Whoever gets BFS first, whoever completes their AS item first, etc. And theres nothing the opponent can do short of god-like outplaying because they can't compete. Crit offers a way to even those odds, to help someone behind have a fighting chance, to give them a slight hope that the tables can be turned.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Crit Chance needs to be removed.

The damage bonus from Crit is something that still serves a necessary function; namely, ending the game.

There needs to be a point where offense outscales defense, otherwise we're back at Season 1 with fewer wards.

SaltyToplaneGoat8 votes

But there are better ways than just slapping a stat on and the one with the biggest crit-dong wins the game in the end.

That's bad design in my opinion.

A better way would be to give different lategame options that all have their pros and cons and synergize differently with various champions, so with smart using of the "tools" (items) you have you can beat the other guy who is not as "smart" as you. And this can be achieved without crit in my opinion.

Also, games do end at some point. The increased death timers to the end of the game take care of that as they turn one mistake that gets you caught into 70 seconds of 4vs5 for your team.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

I think crit should stay on melees, so people like Yasuo and Tryndamere and Master Yi aren't ruined, but removed from ranged so they can't fuck us with 1k damage point-and-click 2.0 AS.

Rabid Husky1 votes

so remove crit? alright i'm down for this but then were gonna have to rework mages as a whole since crit is about as burst as ad gets,even with item 3153 item 3508 item 3035 item 3156 item 3072 item 1304 as the only forseeable type of ad build. a burst character like Veigar Katarina Diana for example, get on you nothing will save you while crit offers a small chance to atleast get them low. say we also make melee the only crit users ok, then as a whole ranged characters would need serious reworks with tons more mobility to even be viable since generally ranged carrys are squishy with only a few having small dashes and then there's melees who will need to lose their mobility since one sided auto burst isn't exactly fair to someone trying to kit as a dash messes with that

melees are more known for flat ad and being tank so its possible ranged ad will be built as fighters but then the normal fighters will be built with nothing but crit then there's also the fact of mages again. its a never ending cycle with the removal of crit, mages>fighters>marksmen that is how the circle goes removing crit means removing the one bit of burst that can stop a snowballing mage

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, you forget item 3078 item 3071 item 3042 item 3025 item 3139 - those items can also work good in a AD build.

Also, in my experience with the MF build I showed in the OP I was surprisingly durable, especially against AD assassins. The HP from black cleaver and the Iceborn gauntlet work well together - but this is only something MF can pull of as she can use those items well (Ice procs on Q, cleaver with ult).

When crit is removed I can see new items coming specializied in marksman-defense.

Draven Always1 votes

Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Not a legit argument as Draven can build whatever he wants and still be DRAVEN, therfore winning the game by default, even when he loses.

Rabid Husky1 votes

true but only on either fighter type or spell heavy champs with the exception of item 3139 people like Jinx Ashe Caitlyn for example that focus on auto attacks and have moderately high cd compared to someone like ez or mf who have like 10 second cd on base spells. thanks to this post tho i did find a interesting post about reworking it to constant growing damage instead of random chance full damage since i will admit the luck of the draw TwistedFate can be the best thing ever or have your teammates saying your bad cuz your unlucky this game

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Making this game more about skill than luck would probably improve the entire experience a lot I guess...

Rabid Husky1 votes

it would since it would increase over all power keeping crit users late game while also removing the parts that people hate like early game tryndamere or loosing lane cuz your opponent has 15% crit and hit you 5 times in a row all being crit

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