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Almost everyone acknowledges you guys just destroyed Talon

Shinjusuke··4 votes·912 views

So should we assume you're all going to completely ignore that because you're afraid of the "I told you so" when he's unplayable because he's completely impotent now? He has zero lane presence, can't trade vs anyone with a brain, and is now countered by the exact champions he used to counter (which by the way, were the only remotely equal matchups he had).

And it's not like this is news either, the Talon gutting (it's NOT a "small tap", it's NOT a "minor nerf") has been a topic from the hour it went on the PBE, with, at least as far as I was able to find, unanimous belief that "Talon needs nerfed, but this will just completely dumpster him".

Honestly. We get you absolutely despise assassins (that aren't named Lee Sin) at Riot, you've made it abundantly clear (hello near-incessant Kha'zix nerfs), but when even the people who you're "protecting" by nerfing the champion are saying "this is too hard of a nerf", maybe you guys should think a little harder about whether the "small tap" you're implementing is actually a good idea.

14 Comments

12tales3 votes

I look forward to the inevitable future buffs.

In the mean time, I don't think I'm ever going to think to myself "Boy, I sure wish there was a Talon in this game." I don't miss getting silenced and instagibbed by Kassadin and LeBlanc, and I won't miss getting silenced and instagibbed by Talon.

Lumus Avatar1 votes

Mmmm, giblets.

redniwediS2 votes

Even if the majority of people agreed with you it wouldn't be over 60%. There are many, many people who are on Riot's side here.

Lumus Avatar2 votes

I'm on the side of "let's see what happens on Live." PBE and Live experience are drastically different due to the number of players trying new things on live. Someone will likely show how Talon is not only still viable but, in fact, buffed by this change in the near future. (Maybe not buffed, but you get that I mean in this larger testing environment, new data will come to light)

Wait and see, I say.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

I do get what your saying, but Riot really has not vocalized what they are thinking beyond the silence for talon. the closest thing to a recognition that he will need further attention is them saying the silence made it hard to balance talon. I think most talon players suspect riot will just leave talon alone after this because he was never as popular as kassidin or Leblanc, who both needed more adjustments after losing their silences.

12tales1 votes

I don't think that's necessarily founded. He's currently the 9th most banned champion in the game, and he's been seeing quite a bit of play competitively. He's not at the pick or ban level that Kassadin and LeBlanc were at, but he's still a pretty prominent champion, and Riot's been pretty consistent in giving compensation buffs after making changes like this one.

I think it's mostly a question of how long it'll take before Riot decides they know what those buffs should be. With Kassadin, it took one patch for him to get compensated, while LeBlanc is still something of an ongoing project.

Lumus Avatar2 votes

Possibly. What I noticed reading down the Patch notes for 4.17 was that a lot of the complaints I've been seeing on the boards were incorporated or in some way addressed, Whether they were just nodded at or mentioned in passing, or stating as things Riot was still looking at (Cassiopeia), or had taken into account and had full-blown changed. I actually want to point at the Cass part specifically for this and say "this is how they're trying to operate. It lacks instant gratification or even the benefits of "fast-fail, fast-improve" iterative thinking. But it shows they are listening and trying to do things right.

"want to make sure we don't react too quickly as players are learning a champion and then that champion goes on to demolish everyone (cough Kassadin cough)."

I would add "or get demolished" to this statement.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

What you are saying is most likely true, but i would like to see riot at least say they plan on keeping an eye on him specifically. I havnt been able to find any red posts about this nerf, though maybe i am looking in the wrong places.

Lumus Avatar2 votes

I understand your feelings. I'm just trying to say 'look at Cass.' They never responded to players or posted anything about her and people yelled for weeks about how Riot wasn't "owning up to their mistakes" but there it is in the patch notes, they are looking for baby steps to bring her carefully to where she should be.

Aethari1 votes

"want to make sure we don't react too quickly as players are learning a champion and then that champion goes on to demolish everyone (cough Kassadin cough)."

I would add "or get demolished" to this statement.

So you're saying that you don't think that completely removing the one soft-CC that molded and held together his identity and kit the moment he saw competitive play is "reacting too quickly?"

I understand the reason why they want to change his E. It has little counterplay when he's fed, and people don't like that feeling (although it's kinda their fault for letting him get fed in the first place, but let's not go there).

However, completely destroying his ability to fulfill the niche that he previously existed solely for, without giving any meaningful strength in any other areas, is NOT the answer.

Even if their excuse was, "We're removing his silence for now, but plan to give him buffs in the (far off) future," it wouldn't be right. Completely removing a champion's viability until you can fix them up later shouldn't be a choice that Riot looks to. There are ways to tone down champions until further work can be done on them without, quote on quote, "gutting" them.

And that's what Riot has done. They have gutted Talon, ignored the playerbase who's crying out to them, without even bothering to mention their thoughts on the change or their future plans.

Hoi Im Temmo2 votes

qq moar pls. I hated talon, and not even because of his silence. Get gud, then complain.

DaiDragon2 votes

What folks need to understand here is that while the silence on Talon was insanely strong and not to mention virtually impossible to counter, the sudden change on it leaves Talon without a way in to take out his target. Assassins are known for their bursting and just about all of them have maybe one skill that they will probably get a lot of their kills from. (Akali's ult to go in and stay in, LB's mark to do a ludicrous amount of damage, Katarina's ult) The difference between Talon and those champions is that they all have a reliable way to gtfo if things get too hectic or if they need time to get their CDs back up. Leblanc has her dash in, Akali and hop around, and so can Katarina. Talon has none of that outside of his ult which doesn't have a cooldown low enough to rely on escaping so when he goes in, his only saving grace was the silence so that he could get his combo off then go on about his business. I play Talon from time to time and while this nerf isn't wrong it isnt's the best choice right now either, especially since his rake already slows so there is little reason in giving him another unless your jungler wants to get in on the action. I certainly hope Riot has a way to BALANCE Talon so that he can still have a reliable way of killing his foes without dying halfway there or at least increase some damage ratios (which wouldn't really be needed since his burst is still the same,just WAAAAAAAAY less reliable). LB and Kass had their silences taken because even IF their absurd amounts of damage after the silence didn't kill their target through some miracle of Nashor, then they could just gtfo and go on about their business.

The Crow King1 votes

People thought they did the same thing to kassadin, to gragas, to sona... point being everyone thinks a champion gets over-nerfed until it sits for awhile then everyone stops crying and accepts that a champion isn't stupid strong anymore and actually has a healthy role in the game.

Shinjusuke2 votes

The difference here is they nerfed the general power of those champions (except sona), not the thing that allowed them to function.

If they removed Riftwalk, Kassadin could not function, because he needs riftwalk to use his attack pattern.

Same thing with Talon. Without that period where he can initiate on the much-higher range, usually much more single-target damage mage, he can't touch them. He'll E them, get syndra ulted, and die.

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