So in return for 5 to 25 less base damage from just one shuriken, he's going to be dealing 10 to 15 more base damage with two, and 55 more base damage with three. Same pattern goes for his ratios.
In essence: His harass has been love-tapped while his burst has only become even more effective.
Yordlelayhehoo26 votesGuess ill just continue to perma ban him until Riot gets the message. They never significantly nerf flashy champs. All about that LC$
Lady Hammerlock5 votesGuess ill just continue to perma ban him until Riot gets the message. They never significantly nerf flashy champs. All about that LC$
except in MSI zed saw play ONCE and only ONCE and that was RNG Xiaohu
Yordlelayhehoo8 voteshow does that change the fact that he's a solo queue nightmare?
Handin Out Naps9 votesHe is referring to where you said "All about that LC$".
FantasySniper2 votesWhen looking at game statistics, sample sizes should be large, which makes an individual skill matchup significantly less influential on data for the purposes of comparing the power levels of mechanics. Tournament level stats are extremely small samples and assume an unequal individual skill matchup (Otherwise there'd be no point in competing to see who's better). Using tournament level stats, which in LoL's case also tend to take place over multiple patches, is not how you understand the game's system of balance. If it was something like CS:GO where you see tournaments practically all the time, the game changes very little during the year, and the gameplay variables are simpler, you could make the argument, but LoL isn't like that.
YCitizenSnipsY1 votesExecpt he isn't played int he LCS because they aren't complete retards who slam there face on a keyboard into a fit of rage when he is played.
Calabok6 votesStill gonna ban him
Sirsir6 votesAt least it puts a dent in his harass... a little bit... and keeps the crappy players where I'm at from doing as much damage.
[slayer-jinx-unamused]
Honestly zed needs either a gutting or a significant rework for people to be happy with him. His safety, his FREE LONG RANGE HIGH DAMAGE MINION PASSING POKE, his safety, his myriad of build paths, his safety... None of these will change on their own. especially his safety.
FantasySniper5 votesA very simple change would be to remove the multi-hit interaction and make shadows plainly deal less damage. All of a sudden he has to sacrifice damage for range.
LordGeovanni2 votesnot a real good change but it is simple and its better than what riot is doing currently
RampageRafshan1 votesA very simple change would be to remove the multi-hit interaction and make shadows plainly deal less damage. All of a sudden he has to sacrifice damage for range.
Asking an assassin to do less damage....
FantasySniper1 votesIt'd be functionally similar during a normal combo, but if he wants to send out a shadow to harass, he's going to deal less damage.
Arakadia1 votesHe's almost got the safety, waveclear, and poke of a mage. Almost.
EDIT: He is probably safer, atleast safer then a some mages.
Abyssphere3 votesI'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of safety, but if you're talking about it in terms of how easy or hard it is to gank someone (or catch them out later in the game), then Zed is safer than pretty much every mage in the game. The only mage-ish champions who have comparable safety are Ahri and LeBlanc.
Sirsir2 votesHe has better waveclear than most mages. Based on how its FREE!
Asudurga2 votesThe worst part is seeing a Zed spam his mastery and laugh repeatedly as he runs away.
Profirix5 votesStill gonna ban him.
RampageRafshan1 votesMaybe if you are good enough to dodge 2Q's together then you would be crying.
MunchCrunchLunch7 votesi'd like to see you do that when hes in melee range after he ults you with 2 shadows and him throwing shurikens at you. dodge that one naruto.
Arakadia1 votesSavage....
Quepha1 votesi'd like to see you do that when hes in melee range after he ults you with 2 shadows and him throwing shurikens at you. dodge that one naruto.
That's kinda like saying Jax does a ton of damage if you let him fully stack both his passives and counterstrike on minions and immediately walk into melee range of him. At that point you're practically asking to be killed in a stupidly quick fashion, it would be stupid for Zed to not win in the ideal situation (for him) you described.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesok the thing is jax isn't an assassin that can ult you from 1500 range or so.
Quepha1 votesok the thing is jax isn't an assassin that can ult you from 1500 range or so.
That is completely different from the situation you described.
If Zed ults you from "1500 range or so" then he isn't going to land 3 shurikens on you, he's only going to land one because he had to use both his shadows just to get on you.
In that instance he would be dealing less damage than before.
Edge of Daybreak1 votesWhy is it that in every Zed QQ thread about this nerf they dont mention the .1 ratio removal? Like damn people are you so blind with salt you cant even read properly?
FantasySniper5 votesSame pattern goes for his ratios.
If you really must have the numbers because you can't make the conclusion for yourself, Zed usually starts out with 25 bonus AD, and it rapidly increases into the laning phase.
Edge of Daybreak1 votesIf you really must have the numbers because you can't make the conclusion for yourself, Zed usually starts out with 25 bonus AD, and it rapidly increases into the laning phase.
Did you really think that telling me zed starts with a longsword and runes as relevant numbers? Congrats you know zed starts with longsword and runes Wooo. An average zed build has at least 310 bonus AD. Late game that's about 55 less damage from single Q's when combined with the base damage nerf. This increases to 65 with an all damage build. To call that a love tap is basically circlejerk bait which good job you got upovtes. That's an ultimate rank of damage lost from his Q. The buff hardly matters when most zeds aren't gonna be hitting you with double Q's.
FantasySniper5 votesIt seperates the good Zeds from the great Zeds.
That's what you sound like. Thing is that your average Zed can and will hit you with two shurikens. Even inexperienced ones can regularly accomplish that.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 voteswhy are you calling favoritism... oh wait, youre another of those who doesnt understand how balance works arent you
Arakadia2 votesSwain doesn't get a skin for 4 years even with awsome concepts like Dragon Master, Prehistoric, etc.
Gnar and Draven get 2, or 3 for draven, skins within 1 year.
Riot doesn't favorite champs, no way!
Remember when Sejuani got a wall slam of nerfs? Lucian got nerfs and before the nerfs even went through he got buffs again.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesSwain doesn't get a skin for 4 years even with awsome concepts like Dragon Master, Prehistoric, etc.
Gnar and Draven get 2, or 3 for draven, skins within 1 year.
Riot doesn't favorite champs, no way!
Remember when Sejuani got a wall slam of nerfs? Lucian got nerfs and before the nerfs even went through he got buffs again.
I can imagine that swain skins are a bitch to make and he doesnt seem to have enough lasting popularity to make it worth the work
gnar and draven are extremely popular, due partly to being iconic or cuddily/funny
Sejuani more or less defines a huge part of the jungle meta. When she is strong and you can't deal with her, youre just out. Game over. On top of that she does so fucking much! Lucian is just lucian. If he gets too strong its easy to move his power around and experiement while sej is a balance nightmare you shouldnt even be comparing to lucian regardless of how strong you think he may be at the moment.
Arakadia2 votesMy post had nothing to do with balance, but the fact Sejuani gets thrown away while Lucian gets a decent nerf then immediate buffs before his nerfs reach live. Because, god forbid he be non-meta.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesMy post had nothing to do with balance, but the fact Sejuani gets thrown away while Lucian gets a decent nerf then immediate buffs before his nerfs reach live. Because, god forbid he be non-meta.
"my post had nothing to do with balance" said Arakadia as he went on to talk about nerfs, buffs, and the meta.
and yes god forbid lucian, one of the healthier adc designs be non-meta.
0 cc high conditional damage his burst isnt anything terribly special but he does have some
this is alot of what an adc is supposed to be, yes lucian probably should be meta. Meanwhile sejuani's kit overload makes lucian seem just fine by comparison. Sejuani is alot of things that probably shouldnt be in this game together but there it is in her kit. Buffing her is dangerous not just to the meta but to the health of the game in general. A buff to lucian is just an annoying 10 minutes earlygame in a lane where this kind of issue wont go away even if you nerf out one or two champions.
Arakadia1 votes"my post had nothing to do with balance" said Arakadia as he went on to talk about nerfs, buffs, and the meta.
My post had nothing to do with balance. It was about the fact he gets a nerf, then immdediate buffs before he hits live. Some champions are dumpstered then buffed patches later. It wasn't about balance, but about how they treated his balance.
and yes god forbid lucian, one of the healthier adc designs be non-meta.
Totally forgot about mobility creep, no mana issues after ER on a bursty ad caster, being a lane bully, and being quite safe. Totally healthy.
0 cc
One of his few weaknesses.
high conditional damage
If you mean his passive which he isn't actually that reliant on then sure. But he is fine without it, just weaker than he could be.
his burst isnt anything terribly special but he does have some
He is quite bursty. Unlike Jhin or Corki who have predictable burst with delays and warnings. I mean Jhin's burst is fantastic, but much more conditional then Lucians. Plus Lucian is much more forgiving with his mobility and range on spells (but similar range to Jhin on AA's.)
this is alot of what an adc is supposed to be, yes lucian probably should be meta. Meanwhile sejuani's kit overload makes lucian seem just fine by comparison. Sejuani is alot of things that probably shouldnt be in this game together but there it is in her kit. Buffing her is dangerous not just to the meta but to the health of the game in general. A buff to lucian is just an annoying 10 minutes earlygame in a lane where this kind of issue wont go away even if you nerf out one or two champions.
I'm not saying buff Sejuani.** I'm saying why was she left dumpstered for several patches while Lucian gets buffs before his nerfs even reach live? If you can answer me that question reasonably with good arguement, I'll agree with you. ** So fare you havent however.
Lucian is a lane bully, a hyper mobile champion, has great dps with great burst. Has recently the Korean build. He is forgiving and safe.
Again, my posts aren't comparing Lucian and Sejuani's balance. There about the fact Sejuani and/or other champions get dumpstered then revived some many patches later. Meanwhile our sweet meta lucian literally gets buffs before his nerfs reach live.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes'm saying why was she left dumpstered for several patches while Lucian gets buffs before his nerfs even reach live? If you can answer me that question reasonably with good arguement, I'll agree with you. **_
they are completely different issues
you can fix Lucian by moving numbers around you can fix Lucian by changing items you can fix Lucian by reworking an ability even
You cannot fix sejuani without a full rework, which is exactly what she got the last time they tried.
Ironically sejuani is everything Lucian should fear. Sejuani is not a problem that can be compared to Lucian.
Lucian is at best a balance problem Sejuani is a design challenge, that is a whole different level of issues.
When you want to balance Lucian you just look at Lucian When you want to balance Sejuani you look at blue buff you look at red buff you look at how fast tank junglers are clearing and what they should and should not be allowed to do. She's already pretty much one of the upper limits among tank junglers as far as how much shit you can cram into one kit goes.
Lucian cannot be compared to this.
Arakadia1 votesSejuani has a lot of CC which is expected for a tank. Nautillus has more CC, can jg, has a longer range gapcloser that brings them to you also. I don't really see Sejuani's kit as anything crazy. Sion too has as much CC.
You have misunderstood every single one of my posts as about balance, so I won't say anything else about Balance for the moment. My posts haven't been about these champion's balance, but about how riot treats them.
Answer me this, because you still, haven't. Why are some champions like Sejuani dumpstered only to be brought back several patches later, while Lucian here gets buffs before the nerfs even hit live?
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesSejuani has a lot of CC which is expected for a tank. Nautillus has more CC, can jg, has a longer range gapcloser that brings them to you also. I don't really see Sejuani's kit as anything crazy. Sion too has as much CC.
You have misunderstood every single one of my posts as about balance, so I won't say anything else about Balance for the moment. My posts haven't been about these champion's balance, but about how riot treats them.
Answer me this, because you still, haven't. Why are some champions like Sejuani dumpstered only to be brought back several patches later, while Lucian here gets buffs before the nerfs even hit live?
sejuani has a wall jumping gap closer she can combine with her ults range without actually landing a skillshit to increase its range, the ult is aoe and is incredibly crippling. Nautilus has nothing comparable to this very easy to reproduce power
sejuani can deal a lot more damage without building any offense
sejuani gets free armor and slow resistance from her passive
sejuani gets targeted aoe slows while nautilus gets a delayed aoe area around him.
You cannot really compare anything to sejuani so easily. Your argument is based upon fallacious logic just like the others. Sejuani is an extreme within the champion pool and when adjusting her I am not surprised if she is treated as such.
Some other extremes are
when champs like these get gutted its not going to get fixed fast. Cass just got ANOTHER rework while the others are still waiting on theirs. Zed is not such an extreme balance issue, neither is Lucian or whoever else you made the mistake of comparing her to. Completely different ballpark
Arakadia1 votesPutting aside the fact that Nautillus's Q pulls them too you and has more range, plus the fact his AoE knock up is targeted unlike Sejuani's dodgable ult.
You haven't answered my on why Lucian got buffs before his nerfs hit live. It doesn't take so many patches to fix a champion, and it's possible to not dumpster them. Still, why does Lucian get buffs before his nerfs hit live?
Btw you can make any champion sound incredibly broken without looking at the other side. Sejuani deals a good chunk of damage which she trades for being kit able, her ult being dodgable (especially easy to dodge if you have a dash). She gets armor from her passive, and is thus rewarded with low base armor. Again, she is kiteable. Tanks are supposed to have a lot of CC and the majority of her damage comes from one melee range ability. Her E can't even be used unless she is already on top of you.
Lucian got buffs before his nerfs hit live. Why is that?
FantasySniper2 votesIt's simple really: Zed is in a higher state of power, but instead of getting a straight up nerf, they're compensating him for each nerf so that he "maintains his strengths", which means means that he retains his state of power. They decreased his harass by a minute amount, a behavior which becomes less common after he has obtained enough items to just try and kill you, and have increased his burst, which is also minute but is amplified by factors like his ultimate, making his harass less necessary and therefore the nerf to it possess less impact. Sure, I'll appreciate how his damage from a single shuriken is less despite still being above average in terms of ranged damage available to a hyper-mobile assassin, but I definitely will not enjoy dealing with even more damage coming from his full combo.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesIt's simple really: Zed is in a higher state of power, but instead of getting a straight up nerf, they're compensating him for each nerf so that he "maintains his strengths", which means means that he retains his state of power. They decreased his harass by a minute amount, a behavior which becomes less common after he has obtained enough items to just try and kill you, and have increased his burst, which is also minute but is amplified by factors like his ultimate, making his harass less necessary and therefore the nerf to it possess less impact. Sure, I'll appreciate how his damage from a single shuriken is less despite still being above average in terms of ranged damage available to a hyper-mobile assassin, but I definitely will not enjoy dealing with even more damage coming from his full combo.
that's not favoritism.
That's shifting power responsibly and not shooting yourself in the foot everytime some crying child complains that an assassin assassinated them.
Is his harrass skill not also how he clears minion waves? Which is also part of how he splitpushes which is what they nerfed last time by hitting his attack speed?
By the way some zeds are getting some attack speed now after they already hit his attack speed, how bout that. Its like they know what kindof patches will be coming in the future and prepare for it ahead of time or something
FantasySniper1 votesIt's simple really: Zed is in a higher state of power, but instead of getting a straight up nerf, they're compensating him for each nerf so that he "maintains his strengths", which means means that he_** retains his state of power**_.
Meanwhile he still clears waves like nothing because the damage on his shurikens is still that high. And even better if he uses a shadow to help clear.
Limrick2 votesIt is favoritism when you consider that Azir, who was only a problem for the top 1% of players, got multiple large nerfs at once, but Zed, who is a problem for 99% of players, gets two changes, not even nerfs really, and the one that is closer to an actual nerf gets reverted. They claimed that they didn't want to overnerf Zed, but they happily gutted Azir completely. Riot shows very clear favoritism for Zed.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesIt is favoritism when you consider that Azir, who was only a problem for the top 1% of players, got multiple large nerfs at once, but Zed, who is a problem for 99% of players, gets two changes, not even nerfs really, and the one that is closer to an actual nerf gets reverted. They claimed that they didn't want to overnerf Zed, but they happily gutted Azir completely. Riot shows very clear favoritism for Zed.
Are you seriously trying to compare zed to azir?
Are you people fucking serious with these comparisons? Do you not know a balance nightmare when you see one, my damn!
Limrick1 votesHow is that not a comparison, you fucking inbred? They got nerfs at the same time, they had similar problems, too much safety, and high poke damage. They obliterated Azir, and they babied Zed, even reverting a very good change that rewards high-level play.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesHow is that not a comparison, you fucking inbred? They got nerfs at the same time, they had similar problems, too much safety, and high poke damage. They obliterated Azir, and they babied Zed, even reverting a very good change that rewards high-level play.
Azir has a fucking impassable wall, creates towers, bursts towers with his W on top of scaling with attack speed which is the strongest stat against towers and on top of tall that he gets over 1k gold in AS steroids and can deal heavy sustained damage from over 1000 units away.
and you're asking me if I'm inbred?
HURRDURR BUT ZED HAS A BLINK AND DEELZ DAMAGEZ
Limrick2 votesAzir gets oneshot by basically anything. Zed can juke all over the place, he's basically 3 places at once. Zed kills towers just as quickly as Azir, if not faster. They nerfed the wall, quit bitching. Azir towers don't do shit late game, they are honestly useless. Azir has a major weakness of needing to position his soldiers to do damage. His Q is on a long cooldown, so all you have to do is just move slightly to the side to avoid his damage. Pretty advanced technique, I know. Zed has untargetability, a gap-closer, an insane amount of damage, and an escape all in one ability. And that ability is point and click. You whine about Azir's free attack speed, but Zed has free AD, with an almost equal gold value. And if free stats makes a champ OP, Galio is completely broken.
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesAzir gets oneshot by basically anything. Zed can juke all over the place, he's basically 3 places at once. Zed kills towers just as quickly as Azir, if not faster. They nerfed the wall, quit bitching. Azir towers don't do shit late game, they are honestly useless. Azir has a major weakness of needing to position his soldiers to do damage. His Q is on a long cooldown, so all you have to do is just move slightly to the side to avoid his damage. Pretty advanced technique, I know. Zed has untargetability, a gap-closer, an insane amount of damage, and an escape all in one ability. And that ability is point and click. You whine about Azir's free attack speed, but Zed has free AD, with an almost equal gold value. And if free stats makes a champ OP, Galio is completely broken.
nobody is bitching, youre trying to compare apples to oranges then you want to talk to me like i'm fucking retarded? Who gives a fuck if azir can be killed in 3 hits IT DOESNT FUCKING MATTER
You cannot compare the two and call bias just because its balanced, this is a design issue. YOU CANNOT PUT THEM ON THE SAME FUCKING SCALE AND JUDGE THE DESIGNERS BASED ON THIS that's idiotic and you should feel idiotic for doing so.
You cannot compare free AD to free AS. AS has been an unbalancable stat since forever, AD is a manageable stat without much hidden power
So what if they nerfed the wall, he still creates a wall that can't be dashed through. You can nerf it 50 ways to sunday, as long as it uses a mechanic zed has no comparable equivalent for your argument of bias is complete shit as you have no grounds to compare the two
It doesnt matter if they cut azir down from his kneecaps, his kit is so fucking different from zeds, you are blowing shit and trying to create bias where you cannot even attempt to prove any.
For fucks sake, azir even has/had noticable cc and team utility, zed has a slow most people will never even notice.
When you start talking about bias your balance scale goes straight to shit, its mostly irrelevant. Compared to azir, zed is simpler and many times healthier for the game however healthy or unhealthy zed may be in a vacuum. You cannot compare the two to determine bias then turn a blind eye to the massive differences in kit, scaling, champion type, play patterns. Its all completely different
Arakadia1 votesJust a small comment, it does matter that Azir is killed in 3 hits, faster than a pinky probably.
Arakadia1 votesAs you did with Sejuani, you pointed out all the strengths to make them look broken.
Quepha1 votes"buffs" http://i.imgur.com/9HMQhPe.png k
Dominick Destine6 votes
