Percentage damage reduction has gotten ridiculous

FantasySniper·Jun 23, 2017·126 votes·4,926 views

Look, I get you want to provide consistent durability, but when make squishies more durable than makes actual tanks more durable, you've got a problem.

104 Comments

DethflashJun 23, 201767 votes

Instesd of having a tank meta riot decided to make it so that every AD champion can be a tank with high damage.

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 201723 votes

{quoted}

Instesd of having a tank meta riot decided to make it so that every AD champion can be a tank with high damage.

and this is exacerbated by adcs because they are the highest dps champions in the game. Put a knights vow on an adc with phantom dancer and death's dance, and watch as they can 1v3 without dying.

JJI744Jun 23, 201713 votes

KV needs your partner close-by. PD only works on 1 target at a time. DD doesn't actually reduce damage at all, it only delays it.

If anything, the problem lies with how much certain champions abuse lifesteal. (And/Or whatever you call DD's leach) If you can't burst someone,they can often negate the DD DoT by AAing a minion, once.

Hell, I have seen a Twitch stop attacking the tank he is fighting and turn to casually refill his healthbar ulting through an approaching minion-wave.

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

KV needs your partner close-by. PD only works on 1 target at a time. DD doesn't actually reduce damage at all, it only delays it.

If anything, the problem lies with how much certain champions abuse lifesteal. (And/Or whatever you call DD's leach) If you can't burst someone,they can often negate the DD DoT by AAing a minion, once.

Hell, I have seen a Twitch stop attacking the tank he is fighting and turn to casually refill his healthbar ulting through an approaching minion-wave.

Yeah, lifestealing and the overall anti-burst patterns in the game are getting quite ridiculous. Basically every class now has an item that can help themselves/another not be burst down. Tanks have Knights Vow and locket, supports have redemption and all the %healing and shielding buffs from items, adcs have access to ridiculous amounts of lifesteal, mages have banshees, etc.

DethflashJun 23, 201711 votes

I knew Death's Dance would cause problems like this when i saw the patch notes where it got +5 AD and the bleed amount doubled. The bleed amount going from 15% to 30% is what made the item ridiculous

ThilmerJun 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I knew Death's Dance would cause problems like this when i saw the patch notes where it got +5 AD and the bleed amount doubled. The bleed amount going from 15% to 30% is what made the item ridiculous

Riot remove "spellvamp" from ítems because: "This stat can causes mages to be very resistent".

Then suddenly, AD champions got this. item 3812

Eeeeh... it has been a while since April Fools, Riot.

DarkSunSovereignJun 23, 20173 votes

Actually it was removed because "it would be too strong on vlad".

But that was fucking stupid anyway because they had only just reworked him. Couldn't they make him unable to buy it and be done with it? Make it like convert into ap or something.

ThilmerJun 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Actually it was removed because "it would be too strong on vlad".

Everyone knows that excuse is bullshit.

Following that logic, shouldn't we remove lifesteal from ítems, since the stat is clearly too powerful in a few champs? And crit chance?

This kind of shit only happens to the AP ítems; it's a suspicious coincidence.

JJI744Jun 23, 20176 votes

I can actually see why Riot wants anti-burst itemization to be reasonable. I just think right now there are a couple of abuse cases that are way out of line.

Ex: Draven or Riven with DD. Way way too much healing and damage reduction. Doesn't help that there are a lot of champs that don't have a good Grevious wounds option. (Executioner's)

Ex2: Nunu with Gargoyal Stoneplate+Locket shielding his entire team for something like 2k. Literally winning teamfights just with Locket active.

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I can actually see why Riot wants anti-burst itemization to be reasonable. I just think right now there are a couple of abuse cases that are way out of line.

Ex: Draven or Riven with DD. Way way too much healing and damage reduction. Doesn't help that there are a lot of champs that don't have a good Grevious wounds option. (Executioner's)

Ex2: Nunu with Gargoyal Stoneplate+Locket shielding his entire team for something like 2k. Literally winning teamfights just with Locket active.

also jarvan with stoneplate and locket diving in and having 2 health bars essentially lol

ZT XperimentorJun 23, 20178 votes

We need some actual late game tank items, that can compare with their damage reduction.

Bob the ToastrJun 23, 20173 votes

How about nerf the % reduction on offensive items like item 3046 and item 3812 and either add them to an existing tank item and increase the price or make a new, late game tank item with % reduction?

AtanchanJun 24, 20171 votes

instant bruiser meta

ZT XperimentorJun 24, 20171 votes

About time since marksmen had an entire season to themselves, after being pampered for years. Though there should be plenty of options to avoid the metagolem issue.

Bronze DemonJun 24, 20171 votes

entire 6 seasons. s2-s7

Blackstone01Jun 24, 20172 votes

You can have metas with no tanks, no bruisers, no assassins, no mages, but god forbid a meta rolls around where the ADC has a chance of being replaced.

Whut Thuh Jun 23, 20172 votes

i have yet to see an adc or full damage midlaner that i cant assasinate with an assasin

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

i have yet to see an adc or full damage midlaner that i cant assasinate with an assasin

No offense but in your elo there is no "meta", so not many people have really caught on to the tank knights vow+ locket build and the ardent censer + redemption build on enchanters.

FantasySniperJun 23, 201712 votes

KV not only has MS to help stay in range, staying grouped really isn't difficult in the first place. PD gives MS to help dodge or kite, and switching targets isn't hard either. DD effectively reduces damage by how much you can heal within those 3 seconds. EG: 15 Hp5 and 50 drain/sec is practically 159 damage reduction after all other resistances.

And then to make matters worse, percentage damage resistance scales exponentially, so these items have a natural synergy with each other.

Zero Skill TankJun 23, 20177 votes

If they have KV wielder in range, that clearly the fight isn't 1v3.

50ShadesOfÀDCJun 23, 20171 votes

The healing from passive counters it.Tbh they need to make DD into meele only item and it would be a really good idea.

JJI744Jun 23, 20173 votes

I disagree, considerably. Its not like this is a staple item in every ranged kit, and certainly not a core rush item for them. We have an unforetunate case where what should be a niche item is working so well for a small number of champions it is becoming a standard part of their build. In the extream, we have one single champ that is just plain rushing DD (Draven) and getting a stupidly strong power-spike from the item.

Blackstone01Jun 24, 20172 votes

Instead of melee only like the guy said, it should have reduced bleed for ranged, make it the 30% for melee but only 15% for ranged, it wasn't causing balance issues then.

Morgan le FeyJun 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6GEvRNXP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-23T15:23:28.419+0000)

Put a knights vow on an adc with phantom dancer and death's dance, and watch as they can 1v3 without dying.

By definition, if there's a KV involved, it's not a 1v3. KV requires 2 people. >.>

JSTIN8Jun 23, 20172 votes

When everyone is a tank, no one will be

Senpai NegroJun 23, 201736 votes

As a Riven/Darius player it's kinda sad I can tank a Tryndamere better as Riven with Ninja Tabi/Death's Dance then a Darius with Ninja Tabi/Deadman's Plate

PermabannedGarenJun 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

As a Riven/Darius player it's kinda sad I can tank a Tryndamere better as Riven with Ninja Tabi/Death's Dance then a Darius with Ninja Tabi/Deadman's Plate

No you can't. Death's dance doesn't provide nearly as much damage reduction against physical attacks as an item that provides more percent damage reduction than the damage delay of death's dance as well as more health.

And imagine if you had a randuin's, which cuts into Tryndamere's damage harder than both deadman's and death's dance.

A Basic IslandJun 24, 20173 votes

keep in mind DDs is healing you as well.

VelgamJun 23, 201726 votes

I gave up on tanks when I saw a draven hit me and heal himself for 346HP with one auto.....

RalanrJun 23, 20176 votes

If no one built any GW item in that game then your team was full of idiots.

ChaosThiefJun 23, 20179 votes

It would be one thing if it was naturally built into their kit.

It's another entirely if they build 1-2 items and this is the result.

Grevious wound should not be a forced purchase in every game because an ADC builds lifesteal, it should be a purchase when healing on their team is actually present.

RalanrJun 23, 20174 votes

If you're unable to bypass the sustain of someone, items or kit, then you should be building the items that counter it.

Simple.

General Esdeath Jun 23, 201713 votes

Alistar item 3123 I got this guys

RalanrJun 23, 20173 votes

Hey, I've had to buy it on Darius and Sion when no one else on my team does.

And we actually got to win because the enemy sustainers could die then.

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20175 votes

My point is that not every champ would use the item it turns into. It's a waste of a slot.

RalanrJun 23, 20173 votes

That I agree with. Times when we need GW sucks because often we won't get the upgraded item since it is very niche.

But making GW too easy to get and keep for multiple roles would be beyond frustrating.

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20179 votes

Or maybe if item 3075 had it LIKE TANK PLAYERS HAVE SUGGESTED FOR YEARS then the item wouldn't be a piece of shit and adc's wouldn't be running around countering tanks, assassins, mages, and burst champs with one fucking item ( item 3072 / item 3812 )

Dryden814Jun 23, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe if had it LIKE TANK PLAYERS HAVE SUGGESTED FOR YEARS then the item wouldn't be a piece of shit and adc's wouldn't be running around countering tanks, assassins, mages, and burst champs with one fucking item (/)

What a buff to tanks to help them vs our almighty adc overlords!

Hang this man for such tyranny! This is blasphemy! As said in the League of legends bible verse 4:20 "For thy adc overlord may not be countered,for thy adc overlord must be almighty and omnipotent"

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20172 votes

PLEASE M'LORD! I DO NOT SPEAK HERESY BUT THE TRUTH! THE ADC OVERLORDS AND NO MORE GODS THAN YOU OR I!

SohleksJun 23, 201714 votes

I spam ranged and even I am already super tired of the state of itemization (I want the enemy backline to actually die when they're outplayed too)

It is so damn tiring to see hybrid defense/offense items overtuned repeatedly over and over on ranged adc and mages. Since the dawn of time. It's extremely predictable too.

Overpowered items that become must buy ARE NOT a solution to the stress of "damage creep" some players complain about.

The way to go, IMO, is to raise HP on level up across the board for every character, and nerf currently overpowered and viable "defensive carry items" (less % dmg reduction or resistances to diminish benefit from welfared hp buff)

This indirectly helps tanks who lost some hp from items scale into late game.

At the same time we need to, IMO nerf Ninja Tabi again, but buff every full armor item for a net buff for tanks late game.

When you do this you have more leeway to buff lethality/assassins to keep them fatal. And maybe they'll be less enticed to build bruiser to exist.

Also give deathcap a small AP buff so it's not just that thing you have to buy 5th or 6th

Encourage risky playstyles. Abuse the current item 3102 / item 3812 (old item 3116 for example too) is extremely played out by now

Ranged bruiser main ecks dee

SnowplosionJun 23, 20178 votes

Death's Dance isn't damage reduction though. It's a damage delay. Doesn't stop it from being op, but damage delay =/= damage reduction.

FantasySniperJun 23, 20177 votes

DD effectively reduces damage by how much you can heal within those 3 seconds. EG: 15 Hp5 and 50 drain/sec is practically 159 damage reduction after all other resistances.

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20175 votes

A bleed effect on an item that heals you by doing any physical damage? So it's ticking 100 damage per second for 3 seconds but I'm healing 100 per second from my wave clear as Riven . So I just cheated death basically.

Bob the ToastrJun 23, 20172 votes

*Danced around death. FTFY

JunkοJun 23, 20177 votes

Percentage damage reduction shouldn't exist at all. What the fuck is the point of armor, MR and penetration if there are items that just ignore those rules?

I frequently build PD+DD on Yasuo, sometimes even throw in a Tabi. It's absolutely ridiculous how much damage you can ignore while more or less building full damage outside of Tabi. Hell I've been doing that basically since DD came out and it was broken even back then(remember Graves?), I'm surprised it took DD buffs for people to realize how dumb percentage reduction is.

Morgan le FeyJun 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Percentage damage reduction shouldn't exist at all. What the fuck is the point of armor, MR and penetration if there are items that just ignore those rules?

It stacks differently. In theory, the multiplicative nature of the stacking thing should reward people who build both resists and %reduction, but only a couple champs (mainly Yasuo and Trynd) do that. It helps Yasuo be slightly less terrible, at least, so there's that?

Another reason is for support stuff, on the KV bit. IIRC Riot wants to reduce stat checking and take away our ability to grant stats (rip augis aura), so how do we directly reduce damage on our ADCs? By taking some of their damage on ourselves (as True damage, btw, so only HP helps with it - other big tank stats don't). It's a self-sacrifice thing. I'm glad supports are slowly being allowed to have nice things. Hopefully people don't freak out overly about it being elsewhere, or it'll get nerfed into the ground and we'll yet again be stuck with terrible things. Everyone's way too afraid of letting support items be effective on anyone.

I still argue that the solution to the "support items op elsewhere" thing is to give us a proper income and raise the item costs. That way, we can have useful items without them being totally broken elsewhere. Issue is, it'd require a lot of rebalancing to adjust for having 5 full income streams rather than 4.4ish, so it'd be a preseason change for sure, but it'd fix a lot of recurring balance problems in the long-term. Those problems are pretty much what're holding supports down atm, and honestly I think the support role would be much more popular with a full income stream (esp. if support as a role was as directly powerful as other roles to prevent it from just becoming another carry position all the time, though allowing a duo carry bot and allowing supports to go elsewhere would be an interesting overall change).

BârdJun 24, 20176 votes

Whenever I see somebody call item 3812 % damage reduction, I die a little inside.

LeonerdoJun 23, 20174 votes

It would help if % damage reduction effects did not stack multiplicatively (HP * Resists * [Product of Damage Reduction effects] = Effective HP†). ADCs already have enough multiplicative stats. And PD/KV are nearing that point of "Too strong when together, thus they must be purchased together, and thus they shape the meta."

If it weren't super wonky, I would say that PD should also give resistances vs. its target, and then KV should give resistances as well. But since it IS super wonky, I think that particular nerf option should be saved for an emergency (like if the meta devolves into hypercarry + enchanter support + toplaner with KV and Locket every single game).

Idk, it's a tough problem because you can't just nerf one of those items, without removing it from viability completely. They aren't strong items on their own, but their synergy makes them strong. Remember, no one (except Riven?) was building DD at all before the buffs.

†The actual formula is more complicated, please forgive me for simplifying it.

ZapMyHeartJun 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Look, I get you want to provide consistent durability, but when make squishies more durable than makes actual tanks more durable, you've got a problem.

Only for AD squishies.

AP squishies need not apply.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

WildstyleJun 23, 20171 votes

It would be ridiculous not to have these items... I can't tell you how many times I've been completely oneshotted by something like syndra ult. I know that syndra is a burst mage but only hitting r should not be able to 100-0 me alone.