IMO: Knockups are largely responsible for what feels bad about being a tank

Horse Grenades·Oct 26, 2018·55 votes·14,892 views

Edit: Title and post should probably say bruiser or juggernaut ad opposed to tank.

__If we’re going to continue to add knockups to kits of new champions can we introduce some kind of tenacity against them. Increased “weight” based on hp? Have it be (a?)effected by tenacity?

I don’t want to be a no solutions guy because I don’t have a lot of answers but it feels bad to float around in the air during team fights when I’ve invested resources into tenacity

51 Comments

Zone of EndlessOct 27, 201819 votes

it's worst when the knock up has additional CC like a stun/slow afterward.

Mecha IncognitoOct 27, 201817 votes

I really like that idea of being less affected by knock ups based on bonus health. That would be a big boon for tanks, though their items could do with a little work still.

BLIGHTBRINGEROct 27, 20181 votes

Imagine knocking up a Vayne into Space as Chogath lmao

DarukongSrOct 26, 201814 votes

I like this, because as a juggernaut (Darius) main, knockups, and all cc really, hurt disproportionately. I just don't have the money to to dodge much when I'm playing as hi . Yet OP or strong champs like Kai, Jax, etc, can run away, or jump you in an instant and Dodge a lot of cc.

PaffWasTakenOct 27, 201814 votes

CC as a whole is way too common now. Back in the day, it was okay for knock-ups to exist and being uncounterable since they were so rare and tenacity was a scarce ressource that you used almost solely to counter unique teamcomps who had a lot of generic CC in general.

As of now, almost every new/reworked champions have overloaded kits with huge amounts of hard CC or uncounterable mechanics, like said knock-ups. IMO, we should just deflate the amount of uncounterable mechanics instead of introducing/reworking some others to counter those. Otherwise, this will just create a vicious circle that we'll never be able to escape.

ZT XperimentorOct 27, 20181 votes

I agree it's too easy to get stunlocked with the excessive cc available; but I'd say the bigger problem is surviving, there's so many anti-tank measures that they're pretty useless beyond being an ult-bot, leaving only hyper-mobile or insanely dangerous melees to succeed.

AnghellousOct 27, 20189 votes

Increased weight based off of HP would actually be horrifying. Perma unstoppable Sion/Chogath.

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20181 votes

Wow! You’re right! I never thought about that. Good point. Possibly crazy too strong

crippler38Oct 27, 20181 votes

Could only be HP from items?

ZeromatsuOct 27, 20181 votes

Just make them cap at some value...

HerlgarOct 27, 20181 votes

Eh, depends on how it scales. Give it a cap or have it scale slower the more hp you have...

BigSquirrellOct 27, 20188 votes

Someone did a full rundown on why displacements in general exist and suck, but I'm not sure where I saw it. It basically boils down to CC was too common, so tenacity became more common, then it became too common, so more and more champions with displacements were created because having hard CC that lasts for a specific duration is still important. But that means that people are now wanting something to counter displacements because they're too widespread. I don't think they'll make an item like that, though, because that'll make a new arms race.

GigglesOOct 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

that'll make a new arms race.

Its not an arms race if "damage always wins" mentality stays in the game

KazekibaOct 27, 20181 votes

Real reason is simpler

Yasuo

KazekibaOct 27, 20181 votes

Braum Velkoz RekSai Why do these champions need knockup? Gnar and Azir ults too but that's a different bag of worms.

All these champions released the year following Yasuo. How many knockup were in the game during season 3? Not many.

FlashesOct 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Someone did a full rundown on why displacements in general exist and suck, but I'm not sure where I saw it. It basically boils down to CC was too common, so tenacity became more common, then it became too common, so more and more champions with displacements were created because having hard CC that lasts for a specific duration is still important. But that means that people are now wanting something to counter displacements because they're too widespread. I don't think they'll make an item like that, though, because that'll make a new arms race.

I think it was by CaptainMarvelous and it can be found in Gameplay+... I think.

BigSquirrellOct 28, 20182 votes

Well remembered, friend. I managed to find it, and I'll leave it here in case anyone wants to read up on it: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/YAjVBX96-the-history-of-cc-and-why-i-believe-its-a-problem

It's a bit long, but it's really informative.

RalanrOct 28, 20181 votes

The good old captain generally is.

HügöOct 27, 20184 votes

When I play a tank it feels only bad that I'm not tanky.

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20182 votes

Yes. I think two big reasons for that are, conqueror and Shortened Laning phases that prevent tanks from scaling with items.

HügöOct 27, 20183 votes

The tank items are shit in general because they can't keep up with all the buffed other shit.

DengedenOct 27, 20183 votes

Doubt it, knockups aren't as easy to land as other CC and not nearly as prevalent and wasting it on a tank and winning the fight is unlikely.

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20181 votes

I dont agree at all. Outside of the not as prevalent

BjørnetjenestenOct 27, 20183 votes

knockups aren't as easy to land

Ornn

FNC 6ixGODOct 27, 20181 votes

Yasuo

crippler38Oct 27, 20181 votes

Zac

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20181 votes

Rakan

Sire HippingtonOct 27, 20183 votes

I really don't care much about knockups as a tank. As a fighter however, that shit is an issue, though so is the overall amount of CC. Getting hit by a 2sec snare usually is worse for most meeles than getting hit by a 1sec knockup, even with tenacity... And worst off it all is that you never feel any tanky unless ahead because everone and their mother have %hp damage and most of the time some %pen or truedamage aswell...

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20182 votes

Especially with conqueror and infinity edge

BjørnetjenestenOct 27, 20183 votes

We need a tank item active that can block all knockups for a few seconds, so you can actually play the fucking game.

Gramps69Oct 27, 20181 votes

Olaf

KazekibaOct 27, 20181 votes

Cleanse works on knockups fyi

FNC 6ixGODOct 27, 20183 votes

it feels bad to float around in the air during team fights when I've invested resources into tenacity

Lololololol

MetallikaiserOct 27, 20183 votes

Wow, the idea of bonus hp having a weight effect is actually pure genius, It is something that I think is gameplay satisfying, and at the same time just makes thematic sense.

IfnethOct 27, 20181 votes

And then Taliyah and Blitzcrank can’t do anything to someone with enough HP.

Gramps69Oct 27, 20181 votes

Obviously the spaghetti code that has pulls coded the same way as knock-ups would need to be changed. Would be nice so Yasuo couldn't abuse non-knock-ups coded as such like Vayne's Condemn, Poppy E, Darius pull, etc.

IfnethOct 27, 20181 votes

Taliyah’s Seismic Shove was designed as a knock-up, though.

F Ù ŃOct 27, 20182 votes

I actually like the Cc, it’s my only saving grace to Juggernauts like Garen. But I do agree. As a Brusier, I’m afraid to go in on a support because of the cc. Hell, I’m even scared to approach Jg now

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20181 votes

As I said to a few others:

I don’t disagree that CC is their counter play but displacements and mobility are so prevalent that it’s making bruisers and juggernauts feel so bad

deadlychuckOct 27, 20182 votes

Useful legalistic trick ( Impacted && (affected || effected) )

Basically, if you're not sure which one to use, Impact works for all instances that either affect or effect might be used.

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20181 votes

Thanks! I’ll remember that

IfnethOct 27, 20182 votes

The whole point of displacements is to prevent Tenacity-stacking champions from just walking over a grouped enemy team.

Horse GrenadesOct 27, 20182 votes

I don’t disagree but displacements and mobility are so prevalent that it’s making bruisers and juggernauts feel so bad

IfnethOct 27, 20181 votes

Well, now we’re talking about more fundamental issues. Fighters, which are also known as Bruisers and comprise the Diver and Juggernaut sub-classes, rely on closing the gap and sticking to their targets to kill them over time. Peel, which is provided by mobility and crowd control, is the general counter to the class.

When a team groups, its array of peel abilities formidably hinder any champion who would attack it. Fighters who want to access the backline of a grouped team must find either a gap in the zone of peel, flank their opponents, or splitpush. These tactics are not always effective, but a Fighter who has not used his class’ laning and skirmishing abilities to find and snowball a lead should not scale into a reliable, brute-force teamfighter like a Tank, Mage, or Marksman.

With an item or mechanic that could greatly reduce crowd control, Fighters would be uncountered. They could run through Tanks’ and Controllers’ zones, shrug off Mages’ combos, dive onto the Marksman, kill him, and then turn on the rest. In other words, they could literally 1v5 if ahead.

KazekibaOct 27, 20181 votes

Garen Nocturne and Irelia can all do that. Irelia is a little too strong but not for that reason before you mention it

IfnethOct 27, 20181 votes

Garen can be stopped by knock-ups, Nocturne pays for this backline access with much of his power budget, and Irelia’s ability is a self-root. Her ability to tear up backlines is due to overturning and the ability to just keep dashing, especially in Solo-Q. She can apply a mark to the same target(s) twice.

KazekibaOct 27, 20181 votes

How do you stack Tenacity? Irelia doesnt have it, knockups don't affect her W anyway, and then there's Merc Treads and..... ? Zephyr is gone. Elixir of Iron is situational and rarely bought pre 20minutes.

Furthermore even if/when you COULD stack it, unless you're Garen, its multiplicative so you dont get a lot out of it. Theres not ENOUGH tenacity imo. Put it on Adaptive Helm and Maw during its shield maybe.

ThilmerOct 27, 20181 votes

At this point, tenacity should reduce ALL crowd control.

EranellOct 28, 20181 votes

I think the most logical way to get something against knock ups would be a new pair of boots similar to mercuries build with a ruby crystal.

Something like:

Steady Stand Lead Boots

Materials:

Boots of Speed
Ruby Crystal
400 Gold (1100 total)

Stats:

+180 Health
PASSIVE: UNIQUE - ENHANCED MOVEMENT: +25 flat movement speed; +2 flat movement speed every minute (+20 max) [since you have to get used to walk with lead boots]
PASSIVE: UNIQUE - Knock ups are 30% less effective.