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Daily Reminder That Tanks Are Literally Worse Off Than Before The Start Of The Season

g07h4xf00··22 votes·3,576 views

Tanks. I'm talking tanks, not juggernauts. Not bruisers. Not champions who survive AND do damage. I'm talking tanks. Champions that survive and have a lot of CC / initiation. Rito has singlehandedly taken a class that was already in bad shape and put them in even worse shape. Let's review the state of tanks in 5.17:

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

Within each role (52 Top laners and 43 Junglers) how are the win-rates for tank champions looking? Oh look! They are overwhelmingly in the bottom half of both roles, with few minor exceptions (Malphite Amumu). So basically they are back to how shitty they were before ANY season 5 changes, but arguably worse since tanks that were relevant at the end of Season 4 (Sion Maokai Alistar) were nerfed to shit. Recall that (Malphite Amumu) have always traditionally had high win rates due to their wombo potential, but their pick rates don't really show in any case.

Looks like things are happening EXACTLY as I predicted it.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n1KJiBUl-516-looks-like-literally-one-the-dumbest-patches-in-the-history-of-the-game-item-change-analysis?show=flat http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/o9z6EaKQ-rip-tanks-55-516?show=flat

What a fucking surprise!

Have yet to see one of my original predictions: tanks will barely be played at Worlds. Mark my words. There will be juggernauts, we'll probably see a Gnar since he's like a hybrid bruiser/marksman/assassin/juggernaut/ebola virus/tank I guess. Alistar's ultimate means that no matter how bad tank itemization is he'll still remain relevant (like he did in S4 Worlds). What about DrMundo who is always picked at Worlds? Gone. Shen? Fucked. Maokai? Lmao why play Maokai when you can play a Gnar or even Nautilus?

Let me post a video that summarizes the problem Rito has with tanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

This was posted BEFORE the big Season 5 changes and yet we are back to a point where this video once again applies. Rito seriously needs to like, do some fucking homework. Go study other games. We can't be satisfied with the net result of all changes to tanks are them being shittier and less viable than before. WTF, Rito?? Stop breaking existing elements while simultaneously introducing new ones. That's not the right way to do design.

42 Comments

g07h4xf003 votes

Gragas is back to being a champion with no role. He's literally the worst jungler now and his damage potential isn't enough to go back to top lane or mid lane. What, is he supposed to return to Season 4 status of being a niche mediocre support?

g07h4xf003 votes

Shen is sitting below a 48% win rate in solo queue which is a freaking joke since he received nerfs he didn't even need. The least threatening tank in the game, nerfed multiple times.

Ahura Mazda Pi1 votes

He got nerfed once (S5) and got many buffs over the last year.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

He got nerfed once (S5) and got many buffs over the last year.

Who? Maokai ? He got a big buff last year and every single change to him since then has been a nerf. There have been several nerfs:

-Weaker passive -Weaker W -Weaker Ult -Higher Cooldown Ult -item 3800 gutted, item 3027 gives less HP -Every armor item gutted (item 3110 core on him, nerfed) -items like item 3153 buffed -Juggernauts buffed

All of these are direct or indirect nerfs to him.

Vantooth3 votes

I love playing tank for one very good reason, I can play more. In assassins meta, everyone blow up sure it's flashy and it's cool but there's nothing more toxic than instant 100-0. That's why I believe the tank meta we had was the best state the game was for a long time, it wasn't about blowing the other faster but outlasting.

Think about it for 2 seconds, what's more fun? fight that goes on for 30 seconds or fight that end under 5? While quick assassins fight might have more adrenaline rush to it, you don't enjoy it for long.

g07h4xf002 votes

{quoted}

I love playing tank for one very good reason, I can play more. In assassins meta, everyone blow up sure it's flashy and it's cool but there's nothing more toxic than instant 100-0. That's why I believe the tank meta we had was the best state the game was for a long time, it wasn't about blowing the other faster but outlasting.

Think about it for 2 seconds, what's more fun? fight that goes on for 30 seconds or fight that end under 5? While quick assassins fight might have more adrenaline rush to it, you don't enjoy it for long.

Yes. There's a reason why games like Super Smash Bros are considered fun. Dying in one hit is a Call of Duty thing.

Phife1 votes

Wet noodle fights are never fun.

Silents4293 votes

Take a trip back in time.

Tanks in the beginning of the season had terrible itemization, shit clear times, some couldn't finish the first clear, and the rest couldn't gank after the first clear, as soon as they got counter jungled just a little bit they were stuck behind the rest of the game, and that was it.

As of 5.17 every tank can clear, every tank can clear faster then they could originally, individual tanks have received many buffs, tanks can come back from counter jungling as well as being able to defend themselves now, tanks can gank after the first clear, and the jungle simply doesn't kick there ass anymore.

In regards to itemization, even still the Cinderhulk is a damn wonderful item, and the new armor changes, especially the item 3143 have been great for the long haul. item 3110 being toned down means we can add new tank items to the game without the FH overshadowing them.

You want to know why tanks were crazy for awhile during there "meta" ? Because they were better bruisers, they were to strong, they were unkillable and had so much control over everything, and it wasn't fun. It was not fun going against 3 tanks every game, 3 tanks that dealt damage on par with Bruisers, with more CC and were virtually unstoppable come late game.

But look who I wasted my time writing this for, a guy who is misinforming himself off of winrates and LCS picks trying to understand balance.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Bull fucking shit, Take a trip back in time.

Tanks in the beginning of the season had terrible itemization, shit clear times, some couldn't finish the first clear, and the rest couldn't gank after the first clear, as soon as they got counter jungled just a little bit they were stuck behind the rest of the game, and that was it.

As of 5.17 every tank can clear, every tank can clear faster then they could originally, individual tanks have received many buffs, tanks can come back from counter jungling as well as being able to defend themselves now, tanks can gank after the first clear, and the jungle simply doesn't kick there ass anymore.

The ability to clear the jungle (which is a PvE aspect) doesn't suddenly make them good to carry a game or win in a PvP situation. Irrelevant point.

In regards to itemization, even still the Cinderhulk is a damn wonderful item, and the new armor changes, especially the item 3143 have been great for the long haul. item 3110 being toned down means we can add new tank items to the game without the FH overshadowing them.

It was a straight across-the-board nerf. If you want more armor items, add them. Don't make FH worse. Think FH is too cheap? Okay, make it more expensive. But don't take 10 armor away for NO fucking reason.

The only situation where item 3143 IS EVER worth buying is against Yasuo Ashe Gangplank and that's it. Only because of how much they crit. Three champions in the entire game to build a single item for. In all other cases you're better off building literally ANYTHING ELSE. So much for "strategic diversity and choice". Garbage item change.

You want to know why tanks were crazy for awhile during there "meta" ? Because they were better bruisers, they were to strong, they were unkillable and had so much control over everything, and it wasn't fun. It was not fun going against 3 tanks every game, 3 tanks that dealt damage on par with Bruisers, with more CC and were virtually unstoppable come late game.

Again, I'm not arguing that tanks need to do more damage. I'm arguing they need more survivability and intiation potential. The initial Cinderhulk nerfs where we reduced the damage was fine. The other changes were not.

But look who I wasted my time writing this for, a guy who is misinforming himself off of winrates and LCS picks trying to understand balance.

I don't only base it off win rates and LCS picks but also on my own personal experience and math I've done for the champions. I only reference win rates and LCS picks/bans for more credibility, since that's the type of thing people in this community care about.

Silents4292 votes

The ability to clear the jungle (which is a PvE aspect) doesn't suddenly make them good to carry a game or win in a PvP situation. Irrelevant point.

You are right, making more CS (Gold) doesn't correlate to getting better items and having more health to deal with any situations like that. What was I thinking. Tanks aren't suppose to be carrying games, they are reliant on their team, that is the trade off they have.

It was a straight across-the-board nerf. If you want more armor items, add them. Don't make FH worse. Think FH is too cheap? Okay, make it more expensive. But don't take 10 armor away for NO fucking reason.

Do you even know what frozen heart gives? The item is 124% gold efficient WITHOUT it's aura. And the reason it is getting toned down is so it stops overshadowing other items, Why bother picking the other armor item when FH exists? If you want to say just buff the other armor items, then god damn we have tanks running around with retarded amount of stats, as well as bruisers getting even better tank items.

The only situation where IS EVER worth buying is against and that's it. Only because of how much they crit. Three champions in the entire game to build a single item for. In all other cases you're better off building literally ANYTHING ELSE. So much for "strategic diversity and choice". Garbage item change.

What are you on where you really think only 3 champions are worth building a Randiuns for? Try every single marksmen in the game and every single fighter. Hell, any AD champion in the game is going to be nullified by Randiuns. You really think the crit reducing aspect is the only reason to getit?

Again, I'm not arguing that tanks need to do more damage. I'm arguing they need more survivability and intiation potential. The initial Cinderhulk nerfs where we reduced the damage was fine. The other changes were not.

Name 1 tank that isn't capable of doing this, I jungle many of them and no where near witness situations like this. A tank that could initiate before can do it the same, A tank that was durable before can still be durable. Stop glancing over the part where the base HP on Cinderhulk got buffed by 100, making it better Early/mid with little noticeable change late game.

I don't only base it off win rates and LCS picks but also on my own personal experience and math I've done for the champions. I only reference win rates and LCS picks/bans for more credibility, since that's the type of thing people in this community care about.

They don't mean jack for credibility and neither does anecdotal evidence. You are just taking advantage of the sheeplike masses with bad sources they will respond too.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

You are right, making more CS (Gold) doesn't correlate to getting better items and having more health to deal with any situations like that. What was I thinking. Tanks aren't suppose to be carrying games, they are reliant on their team, that is the trade off they have.

The same arguments can be made about supports, and yet supports are more reliable than tanks at winning games.

Do you even know what frozen heart gives? The item is 124% gold efficient WITHOUT it's aura. And the reason it is getting toned down is so it stops overshadowing other items, Why bother picking the other armor item when FH exists? If you want to say just buff the other armor items, then god damn we have tanks running around with retarded amount of stats, as well as bruisers getting even better tank items.

That 124% calculation includes the 400 mana which is honestly a useless stats. Why not build FH? Because it gives 0 HP and 0 MR. Ever think of that? Maybe a manaless tank like GnarShenDrMundo looks at it and says "no thanks". I'm a Singed and I can think of 3 armor items off the top of my head I'd rather have over item 3110 any day of the week. It's such an overrated item and people think it's good because they haven't actually done the math. Gold efficiency is not as important as item-slot efficiency.

What are you on where you really think only 3 champions are worth building a Randiuns for? Try every single marksmen in the game and every single fighter. Hell, any AD champion in the game is going to be nullified by Randiuns. You really think the crit reducing aspect is the only reason to getit?

Yes. Why would you WASTE (yes, waste) a slot in your inventory on item 3143 vs a generic AD opponent when literally item 3075 item 3110 item 3047 item 3742 are better? I would even add item 3083 item 3512 to that list because at least their active/passive effects aren't worthless.

Name 1 tank that isn't capable of doing this, I jungle many of them and no where near witness situations like this. A tank that could initiate before can do it the same,

Maokai initiation is strictly shittier without item 3800 which is now a useless item. Singed used to have item 3800 as his core build back when it was a viable item since his entire kit relies on running to initiate. Volibear has a similar issue. Any of the other tank junglers Gragas Sejuani etc and even arguably Udyr made great use of this item. Not anymore, it's crap now.

Therefore, worse initiation potential.

A tank that was durable before can still be less durable.

ftfy

Stop glancing over the part where the base HP on Cinderhulk got buffed by 100, making it better Early/mid with little noticeable change late game.

Tanks aren't early/mid game champions, get your head out of your ass. The whole point of tanks is to scale into late game and be a formidable opponent to the enemy carries. The fact that defensive items are cheaper than offensive items makes it so they don't get completely trashed early/mid game.

They don't mean jack for credibility and neither does anecdotal evidence. You are just taking advantage of the sheeplike masses with bad sources they will respond too.

Okay, then you personally can ignore them if it makes you so butthurt. Don't you think it's curious that IMMEDIATELY after the 5.16 and 5.17 patch tank win rates, play rates, and viability COMPLETELY DROPPED BY ALL METRICS??? Or is that just a fucking coincidence?

Silents4291 votes

The same arguments can be made about supports, and yet supports are more reliable than tanks at winning games.

How the hell is this about supports? We are talking about jungle tanks and there carry potential in the early game, I don't give a flying fuck about whether this can be said about supports, they have there own separate problems to deal with.

Right now tanks make more money then the supports do, in comparison to the beginning of the season where it wasn't uncommon for the support to actually make more money then the Jungler.

Now follow along here, More money means more items, and since more items on a tank is a good thing, it means they have much higher potential then previously.

So now we have tanks that can make up a decent income, a jungle that doesn't kick there asses as much, allowing them faster clears with higher health then before, or as you call it the PVE aspect. Now tell me how having better items and more health means they don't handle situations better then before?

Now do you actually jungle tanks or just talking out your ass? Do you even remember Pre season?

That 124% calculation includes the 400 mana which is honestly a useless stats. Why not build FH? Because it gives 0 HP and 0 MR. Ever think of that? Maybe a manaless tank like looks at it and says "no thanks". I'm a and I can think of 3 armor items off the top of my head I'd rather have over any day of the week. It's such an overrated item and people think it's good because they haven't actually done the math. Gold efficiency is not as important as item-slot efficiency.

This is coming from a someone that only plays Singed, and I only know this because you don't seem to know anything about tanks. You overlook the aura, the 90 armor, and the 20% CDR.

Because those are actually critical stats for a tank, -15% aoe attack speed slow, is pffsh useless right? 20% CDR, Why would a champion reliant on abilities need anything like that?! Especially since it's the only tank item apart from item 3065 to actually offer any CDR. 90 armor, Pathetic. 400 mana, why would anyone want to use abilities more often? Not like Nautilus tanks Braum run Malphite out Maokai of Maokai mana.

So yes, Use the like 3 tanks with no resources as a valid example for the item 3110 to be overrated, I am sure that will get you far when you disregard the other 30 that do rely on mana.

Yes. Why would you WASTE (yes, waste) a slot in your inventory on vs a generic AD opponent when literally are better? I would even add to that list because at least their active/passive effects aren't worthless.

item 3143 An active aoe that slows, Why would a slow moving champion need anything like that..

A passive that reduces attack speed, Why would we need anything like that in an auto attack reliant meta, or against a role that solely uses auto attacks?

400 HP, nah, tanks don't need HP.

60 armor is worthless clearly.

-10 Crit damage reduced, My god this has been a godsend, with how many champions in this game that can crit, Like all of them. Add the tank mastery and that's -20 Crit damage reduced, that is HUGE against marksmen and sated junglers right now.

But whatever, fucking grab item 3116 I am sure Maokai will make better use of it somehow.

initiation is strictly shittier without which is now a useless item. used to have as his core build back when it was a viable item since his entire kit relies on running to initiate. has a similar issue. Any of the other tank junglers etc and even arguably made great use of this item. Not anymore, it's crap now.

Therefore, worse initiation potential.

The nerfs to item 3800 haven't touched what it was being used for, the speed boost you get is just the same as before, albeit a little longer cooldown then before.

Why are you talking about Udyr and Volibear who are not tanks. Volibear is a bruiser, and was even considered by Riot to be a Juggernaut.

Maokai isn't suppose to be an imitator and while the item helps it out, he works best as disruption, either reducing the enemies damage to his team, or hanging in the backline CC'ing everyone and locking them down.

A tank that was durable before can still be less durable.

ftfy

A 200 foot building is a tall building, but the building next to it is 190 feet, not as tall as 200, but it's still a 190 foot building with a long ways to go.

If you didn't get the example, Tanks got nerfed but still remain at the top anyway in regards to durability.

Tanks aren't early/mid game champions, get your head out of your ass. The whole point of tanks is to scale into late game and be a formidable opponent to the enemy carries. The fact that defensive items are cheaper than offensive items makes it so they don't get completely trashed early/mid game.

Nope, You don't even know anything about tanks, Why the hell am I wasting my time here.

Cinderhulk brings a tanks late game to the mid game, while offering a bit incentive to early and late game, The passive providing the superior clearing speed, and moderate damage, while the bonus HP passive helps smooth the transition to late game.

But if you suggest, Early and mid game, the point where tanks are at there strongest, is not there intended place, then my god, play someone that isn't singed. Tanks are not suppose to be formidable opponents to the fucking enemy carry, They are suppose to aid there team in securing kills with crowd control, Tanks are reliant on teammates to followup with CC they provide, they are not suppose to lockdown and kill the enemy carries by themselves.

Okay, then you personally can ignore them if it makes you so butthurt. Don't you think it's curious that IMMEDIATELY after the 5.16 and 5.17 patch tank win rates, play rates, and viability COMPLETELY DROPPED BY ALL METRICS??? Or is that just a fucking coincidence?

OH WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE SATED AND JUGGERNAUTS TOOK OFF IN POPULARITY DURING THOSE PATCHES!? WEIRD HOW THAT WORKS!

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

How the hell is this about supports? We are talking about jungle tanks and there carry potential in the early game, I don't give a flying fuck about whether this can be said about supports, they have there own separate problems to deal with.

I'm saying your argument about tanks can also be made about supports which shows how invalid it is.

Right now tanks make more money then the supports do, in comparison to the beginning of the season where it wasn't uncommon for the support to actually make more money then the Jungler.

Literally EVERY other role makes more money than supports lmao. This is the most worthless argument.

Now follow along here, More money means more items, and since more items on a tank is a good thing, it means they have much higher potential then previously.

You DO realize that champions can only hold up to 6 items, right? Like, it doesn't mean more items. It means more items sooner.

So now we have tanks that can make up a decent income, a jungle that doesn't kick there asses as much, allowing them faster clears with higher health then before, or as you call it the PVE aspect. Now tell me how having better items and more health means they don't handle situations better then before?

Except that tank junglers were able to clear the jungle no problem in Season 4 and only in the very start of Season 5 did they start having troubles, which was later resolved. It didn't fix any of their other ACTUAL issues. Lee Sin can also jungle and clear the jungle. So what?

Now do you actually jungle tanks or just talking out your ass? Do you even remember Pre season?

Keyword is PRE-SEASON. I'm arguing that before the start of this SEASON (the implication was end of Season 4), Tanks were able to clear the jungle no problem. They were also more viable in top lane than they are now. Whatever issues were introduced in pre-season 5 about tanks clearing the jungle was not really the issue in Season 4. It was later resolved, sure, so they could clear just like they could in Season 4. Again, what does this matter? They are no better than last season IN THIS REGARD. In every other regard they are worse-off.

This is coming from a someone that only plays Singed, and I only know this because you don't seem to know anything about tanks. You overlook the aura, the 90 armor, and the 20% CDR.

Because those are actually critical stats for a tank, -15% aoe attack speed slow, is pffsh useless right? 20% CDR, Why would a champion reliant on abilities need anything like that?! Especially since it's the only tank item apart from item 3065 to actually offer any CDR. 90 armor, Pathetic. 400 mana, why would anyone want to use abilities more often? Not like Nautilus tanks Braum run Malphite out Maokai of Maokai mana.

So yes, Use the like 3 tanks with no resources as a valid example for the item 3110 to be overrated, I am sure that will get you far when you disregard the other 30 that do rely on mana.

AT NO POINT did I say item 3110 is "useless." All I mentioned was that I can see plenty of situations in which you wouldn't want to buy it. For example, vs a 4-AP comp. Why the hell would you build an item that gives no HP and no MR vs something like that? If you need fucking CDR and/or mana sustain then there are other options (item 1056 item 3028 item 3027 item 3190 item 3065 etc). item 3110 was not a must-buy item by any means. Especially back when item 3800 was not a nerfed piece of shit tanks opted for this item for the mana sustain.

item 3143 An active aoe that slows, Why would a slow moving champion need anything like that..

LMAO AN AOE SLOW WITH 500-RANGE THAT'S LITERALLY LESS THAN MOST ADC'S ATTACK RANGE.

A passive that reduces attack speed, Why would we need anything like that in an auto attack reliant meta, or against a role that solely uses auto attacks?

Buy item 3110 instead. It's strictly better because you don't have to be attacked for it to work and also affects champions like Azir who is super AS-reliant but doesn't really use "on-hit" basic-attack type abilities.

400 HP, nah, tanks don't need HP.

60 armor is worthless clearly.

60 armor with 400 HP is MATHEMATICALLY INFERIOR to 600 HP and 50 armor you cannot deny this item 3742. There are better items if you want raw stats.

-10 Crit damage reduced, My god this has been a godsend, with how many champions in this game that can crit, Like all of them. Add the tank mastery and that's -20 Crit damage reduced, that is HUGE against marksmen and sated junglers right now.

LOL YOU FUCKING IDIOT. Only 3 champions in the game consistently crit (Tryndamere Yasuo Ashe) and all others are based on %. Also, critting is pretty much restricted to ONLY the ADC role with the exceptions noted above. So what you're saying is, I can reduce 10% of damage 40-55% of the time from 1 of the 5 potential champions on the enemy team? No thanks.

BTW getting item 3143 with the defensive mastery multiplicatively stacks, not additively. It's not -20%; it's -19%. Also, you JUST proved my point that the entire niche behind item 3143 is the -10% crit reduction. You could get that with ONE MASTERY POINT!! I think I'd rather pay 1 mastery point than 2650 gold and an entire fucking inventory slot. Get the fuck out of here. It's not slot-item efficient unless it's against those FEW specific champions I mentioned who CONSISTENTLY crit.

The nerfs to item 3800 haven't touched what it was being used for, the speed boost you get is just the same as before, albeit a little longer cooldown then before.

"A little longer" is such a fucking understatement. 90 seconds is so fucking long. item 3069 has an arguably better active with only a 40-second cooldown AND really good stats / gold generation. item 3157 active is 90-second cooldown as well so it's not always up every fight AND the stats are much much better. item 3800 you're paying 2400g for 500 HP and an active that's only up half as often as you need it. Worthless.

Why are you talking about Udyr and Volibear who are not tanks. Volibear is a bruiser, and was even considered by Riot to be a Juggernaut.

I brought up Udyr and Volibear because they are off-tanks who benefited greatly from building item 3800 . They have defensive steroids and GREAT initiation potential assuming you can even get in range to use their initiation.

Maokai isn't suppose to be an imitator and while the item helps it out, he works best as disruption, either reducing the enemies damage to his team, or hanging in the backline CC'ing everyone and locking them down.

http://ask.fm/RiotGhostcrawler/answer/132732280715

Tanks are meant to be initiators. GhostCrawler himself commented on this.

A 200 foot building is a tall building, but the building next to it is 190 feet, not as tall as 200, but it's still a 190 foot building with a long ways to go.

Meanwhile the Bruiser/Juggernaut building is 250 feet. Why would anyone want to ever build the tank building that's only a measly 190 feet? Stupid analogy.

If you didn't get the example, Tanks got nerfed but still remain at the top anyway in regards to durability.

Completely outclassed by bruisers/juggernauts, who are just as tanky if not more. Why play a tank when a juggernaut/bruiser can be JUST AS tanky AND ALSO do tons of damage?

Nope, You don't even know anything about tanks, Why the hell am I wasting my time here.

Everything you've said has been false. You have literally 0 idea what you're talking about.

Cinderhulk brings a tanks late game to the mid game, while offering a bit incentive to early and late game, The passive providing the superior clearing speed, and moderate damage, while the bonus HP passive helps smooth the transition to late game.

So you're saying exactly what I said the problem was. Nerfing tank late game (WHICH IS THEIR TIME TO SHINE) in exchange for a less shitty (but still mediocre) mid game. No thanks.

But if you suggest, Early and mid game, the point where tanks are at there strongest, is not there intended place, then my god, play someone that isn't singed. Tanks are not suppose to be formidable opponents to the fucking enemy carry, They are suppose to aid there team in securing kills with crowd control, Tanks are reliant on teammates to followup with CC they provide, they are not suppose to lockdown and kill the enemy carries by themselves.

And yet they are bad at what they're supposed to be good at. Hence the problem.

OH WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE SATED AND JUGGERNAUTS TOOK OFF IN POPULARITY DURING THOSE PATCHES!? WEIRD HOW THAT WORKS!

Pick Rate != Win Rate. I brought up win rate. You're talking about pick rate. Worthless argument.

Silents4291 votes

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -George Carlin

This isn't worth the effort, there isn't going to be any payoff, and I am not going to keep arguing.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

This isn't worth the effort, there isn't going to be any payoff, and I am not going to keep arguing.

In this case you are the idiot so you're right, no point in arguing with you.

SwapShadows2 votes

why are people so fixated on tanks?

when they are meta they deal WAY too much damage in comparison to their tankyness.

I personally hate the tank meta, I can't count how many times I have seen a malph,sej,amumu, shen 1v1 a APC or ADC and practically nuke them while taking no damage.

SaltyKracka3 votes

Bitch you play Zed.

Your opinion means nothing.

g07h4xf003 votes

{quoted}

why are people so fixated on tanks?

when they are meta they deal WAY too much damage in comparison to their tankyness.

I personally hate the tank meta, I can't count how many times I have seen a malph,sej,amumu, shen 1v1 a APC or ADC and practically nuke them while taking no damage.

I don't mind nerfing tanks' damage. They were fine up until patch 5.13-5.15, the initial Cinderhulk changes were too much.

The problem I have is with nerfing tanks' survivability (armor item nerfs) AND their initiation potential (RIP item 3800) which are the two things that Ghostcrawler said they should be good at.

SEKAI3 votes

{quoted}

why are people so fixated on tanks?

when they are meta they deal WAY too much damage in comparison to their tankyness.

I personally hate the tank meta, I can't count how many times I have seen a malph,sej,amumu, shen 1v1 a APC or ADC and practically nuke them while taking no damage.

Tank meta was a concept created by squishy mains who would do anything to keep tanks in the garbage box, the notion of tanks being viable and strong would leave them sleepless at night.

They do not build any defense, none, when they complain about being killed tanks who DO build damage. As well as thinking that they Should be able to 1v1 anyone melee, especially tanks with 0 chance of losing.

Logic is just not their strong suit.

EDIT: funny you didn't realise Shen is a duelist and Malph is an anti-carry. Ofc they can and should stand against ADCs and/or APCs

stealthfox941 votes

The fact that this has so many downvotes proves the undeniable tank bias of this board.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

The fact that this has so many downvotes proves the undeniable tank bias of this board.

Or it proves people realize what I'm saying is true and Rito sucks at balancing their game.

stealthfox941 votes

Go play HOTS if you love tanks so much.

SEKAI2 votes

Sion isn't a tank though, he is just a bruiser who is really close to being a tank, reason being his CCs are all unreliable.

But anyway, "muh diversity".

g07h4xf004 votes

{quoted}

Sion isn't a tank though, he is just a bruiser who is really close to being a tank, reason being his CCs are all unreliable.

But anyway, "muh diversity".

Sion is a tank because nobody picks him to 1v4 quadrakill the enemy team (like a Darius can) you pick him because he's really tanky and has a ton of CC / initiation.

SEKAI4 votes

{quoted}

Sion is a tank because nobody picks him to 1v4 quadrakill the enemy team (like a Darius can) you pick him because he's really tanky and has a ton of CC / initiation.

How a champ is being played as has no influence on what the champ really is, unless redesigned later on.

But in the case of Sion, he is still bruiser from head to toe. He is just played as a tank more often than not.

Same thing with Shen who is actually also a bruiser, due to him only have a total of 1 unreliable but strong CC in his kit. However he is still played as tank as he functions best that way, but that doesn't mean he is actually one.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Maokai is still as useful as ever, the big difference with him is that you can't ult every time there's a skirmish. So it prevents you from pressing R every time they enemies try and harass you a bit.

g07h4xf002 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is still as useful as ever, the big difference with him is that you can't ult every time there's a skirmish. So it prevents you from pressing R every time they enemies try and harass you a bit.

No, he isn't. His jungle and top win rates are both crap and he hasn't seen pro play in China or Korea in these new patches.

ReshiKillim1 votes

He is still strong, they didn't change his tankiness/damage out put or damage reduction. They only increased the cooldown. Because it was too good in pro play.

In the qualifiers for World's, Maokai had a 60% winrate in EU, 80% in NA, 50% winrate in Korea. I think that's some pretty positive winrates in pro play. (Didn't count China because Maokai was only played twice there.0

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

He is still strong, they didn't change his tankiness/damage out put or damage reduction. They only increased the cooldown. Because it was too good in pro play.

In the qualifiers for World's, Maokai had a 60% winrate in EU, 80% in NA, 50% winrate in Korea. I think that's some pretty positive winrates in pro play. (Didn't count China because Maokai was only played twice there.0

Those pros played in patch 5.15 BEFORE the tank gutting in 5.16. Non-applicable argument.

Ánnîe 1 votes

why would you list people not picking maokai for picking naut? naut is a tank as is maokai. gnar i understand but i dont understand the problem with naut. "I'm talking tanks. Champions that survive and have a lot of CC / initiation." Nautilus ?

g07h4xf001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Annie 1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pcsw2e1Y,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-08T08:59:21.053+0000)

why would you list people not picking maokai for picking naut? naut is a tank as is maokai. gnar i understand but i dont understand the problem with naut. "I'm talking tanks. Champions that survive and have a lot of CC / initiation." Nautilus ?

I think Nautilus right now is better than Maokai because he does more AOE damage, has more chain CC/lockdown, and better initiation. In terms of raw tankyness, they are in the same tier.

Meep Man1 votes

Nerfed to shit? Sion is still a powerful force, Maokai is still the signature safe lane, and Alistar is still a great Support with the Level 2 Malphite ult. Mundo may need some work, but Tanks are (OVERALL) completely fine at the moment.

Maokai in particular like what? He is still amazing! The main reason use ult (damage reduction) is still there. I'm getting pretty tired of people saying armor items were gutted. Gutted? You don't know gutted till you have seen Kassadin's nerf list.

Erockandroll1 votes

Are we talking SoloQ, Cause Tanks are being picked up Ridiculously in the LCS. Tanks by their nature are Team fighters, and must be oriented around the team.

{quoted}

why are people so fixated on tanks?

when they are meta they deal WAY too much damage in comparison to their tankyness.

I personally hate the tank meta, I can't count how many times I have seen a malph,sej,amumu, shen 1v1 a APC or ADC and practically nuke them while taking no damage.

You need damage Regardless, (unless your a support.) A Jungle Tank needs enough DPS to keep up with their counterparts, which Cinderhulk did wonders for. A good Top lane Tank Should have more Wave Clear, and more Burst. (compared to Bruisers and Juggernauts.)

And because their defensive stats are made to tank the enemy team, (in a major team fight) They are naturally hard to solo By a glass cannon. But a good glass cannon should be a good kilometer away from the nearest Enemy Tank/Assassin/Diver. Never go man mode to try and solo a Tank.

{quoted}

Those pros played in patch 5.15 BEFORE the tank gutting in 5.16. Non-applicable argument.

I will bet 5 dollars that he will still have a good pick/ban/win rate in worlds. Maokai has enough engage an utility to be useful, regardless of the Juggernaut and item changes. Worse case scenario, Garen and Darius become must pick/ban and Maokai would still be a good fall back champ.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Are we talking SoloQ, Cause Tanks are being picked up Ridiculously in the LCS. Tanks by their nature are Team fighters, and must be oriented around the team.

Again, same argument can be made about ANY support champions or utility mage. Yet, they seem to be fine and just as viable, they aren't pick/ban every game, and have reasonable win rates that aren't overwhelmingly below 50%.

You need damage Regardless, (unless your a support.) A Jungle Tank needs enough DPS to keep up with their counterparts, which Cinderhulk did wonders for. A good Top lane Tank Should have more Wave Clear, and more Burst. (compared to Bruisers and Juggernauts.)

And because their defensive stats are made to tank the enemy team, (in a major team fight) They are naturally hard to solo By a glass cannon. But a good glass cannon should be a good kilometer away from the nearest Enemy Tank/Assassin/Diver. Never go man mode to try and solo a Tank.

Again, why not play a juggernaut/bruiser? The 5.16/5.17 changes made it so that juggernauts and bruisers are JUST AS tanky as tanks if not MORE tanky. And they bring more damage. Again, why play a tank now?

I will bet 5 dollars that he will still have a good pick/ban/win rate in worlds. Maokai has enough engage an utility to be useful, regardless of the Juggernaut and item changes. Worse case scenario, Garen and Darius become must pick/ban and Maokai would still be a good fall back champ.

Yet you completely ignore the fact that Skarner Gangplank Fiora and others who have benefited from these last two patches exist. Go watch pros who are going to Worlds stream, particularly top laners and junglers. They're not playing Maokai.

http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=Adlet%20Mayer

The above op.gg link is for C9 Balls' Korean server account where he's been grinding solo queue and ranked 5s with his team in preparation for worlds. He's C9 top laner and considered pretty good, one of the best in the NA region I'd say. Look at his most recent games. Look at his win rate/play rate statistics on the left side with various top lane champions. Notice anything missing? Where's Maokai ? Nautilus ? Shen ? I don't see a DrMundo anywhere. NOT EVEN Gnar who is arguably still a stupidly broken champion because he's a hybrid marksman/bruiser/tank/juggernaut/whatever is being played anymore. I don't see a Sion anywhere, a champion he literally played to qualified for Worlds just a couple weekends ago. Oh wait, that qualifier game was played in patch 5.15, before the tank gutting.

Coincidence?

Go watch any top laner / jungler stream or their accounts on the Korea server. Let me know what you find. It may shock you (doesn't shock me).

stealthfox941 votes

Shen will probably still get picked at worlds. Looks like we're back to this board being obsessed with tanks.

Bruiser master race

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Shen will probably still get picked at worlds. Looks like we're back to this board being obsessed with tanks.

Bruiser master race

And yet no pro is playing him to practice / in preparation for Worlds. He's worthless now.

Lugg1 votes

{quoted} we'll probably see a Gnar since he's like a hybrid bruiser/marksman/assassin/juggernaut/ebola virus/tank I guess.

Upvoted for this sentence alone.

As for the rest of the post, tanks are being kept down because assassins always QQ about having a class that can actually deal with them.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Upvoted for this sentence alone.

As for the rest of the post, tanks are being kept down because assassins always QQ about having a class that can actually deal with them.

And yet Bruisers exist now which are just as tanky and do more damage.

Lugg1 votes

That's the biggest problem in the game, champs that do massive damage and are very hard to kill. This doesn't just include bruisers. Fizz, Riven, DIana, Irelia, etc are all champs that do insane damage and are amazingly tanky due to their kits.

Personally, I think that all 4 Juggernauts were just fine before they reworks. They only needed slight nerfs or tweaks and they would have been fine for all levels of play.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

That's the biggest problem in the game, champs that do massive damage and are very hard to kill. This doesn't just include bruisers. Fizz, Riven, DIana, Irelia, etc are all champs that do insane damage and are amazingly tanky due to their kits.

Personally, I think that all 4 Juggernauts were just fine before they reworks. They only needed slight nerfs or tweaks and they would have been fine for all levels of play.

Yeah seriously now they're just flat-out broken.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Alistar wasn't relevant because of his ult during Worlds. He was relevant because he could abuse the ever living shit out of spellblade proc while being unkillable. He was uncounterable up top lane and it was basically an auto lose for the enemy team if Alistar got passed ban phase (97% banrate near the end)

g07h4xf001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pcsw2e1Y,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-09-10T06:49:28.550+0000)

Alistar wasn't relevant because of his ult during Worlds. He was relevant because he could abuse the ever living shit out of spellblade proc while being unkillable. He was uncounterable up top lane and it was basically an auto lose for the enemy team if Alistar got passed ban phase (97% banrate near the end)

Well, they removed that spellblade proc thing and he's still a top support pick even though he hasn't really been buffed since.

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