"ADC are strong because tanks are strong" only shows a much deeper problem

SSShutTheDuckUp·Aug 31, 2017·24 votes·1,737 views

And it is that marksmen is the only class, that can kill them. Why aren't DPS mages allowed to be as effective as a marksman versus a tanky target? We have multiple classes that are strong against squishy targets - assassins, burst mages, divers. Yet one and only class can deal with tanks. Yes, melee carries can like Yi and Fiora deal with tanks as well. However they are not nearly as effective, and more importantly - as safe as a marksman. So my question is simple: why aren't mages allowed to deal with tanks as effective as marksmen?

130 Comments

AhristocatsAug 31, 201735 votes

marksmen are not meta because of tanks

holy shit can't you realise that we had mandatory marksmen even when tanks were shit in season 3 and in lethality meta?

Tanks can get killed by Master yi and Tryndamere faster than any marksmen the problem isn't killing tanks, the problem is marksmen being too safe in this damn game for little tradeoff

Edit: LOL YOUSAID IT YOURSELF why are you even creating this thread if you understood marksmen's problem

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 1, 20173 votes

Because I am a part of the community and I understand that marksmen have a lot of problems, so I want to point them.

LordGeovanniSep 1, 201716 votes

Except like most posts you arent pointing out marksmen problems you are saying 'so we all know marksmen are broken so why cant mages be just as broken.'

Teridax68Sep 1, 20177 votes

They aren't, though. Literally no part of their post relies on the assumption you are making that marksmen are broken, and the statement they're quoting is taken from other posters. What they're criticizing is the difference in relationship between a very specific subtype of mages (i.e. DPS mages) and marksmen in how they get to deal with tanks. The core point they are making is that the strength of tanks is being used to justify buffs to marksmen, because marksmen are meant to counter tanks, yet isn't being used to justify buffs to any other class, implying that marksmen are the only ones being truly considered able to deal effectively with tanks.

I'm seeing a lot of players jump into this discussion with this pre-formed idea that this is intended to either attack or defend marksmen, when really the central topic of this discussion isn't even really marksmen, even though they're mentioned in the title. The OP just wants more classes other than the marksmen to be able to deal better with tanks, and only tanks, which does not and should not affect marksmen directly. I know that a lot of threads on Gameplay do call out marksmen or defend them, but that should not be a reason to jump into a thread that mentions marksmen, expecting the discussion to revolve around the class.

LordGeovanniSep 1, 20171 votes

THe assumption that adcs are broken is mine their post is about why cant mages be just as broken as adcs when: 1 they nearly are 2 that isnt their job

ErockandrollSep 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

THe assumption that adcs are broken is mine their post is about why cant mages be just as broken as adcs when: 1 they nearly are 2 that isnt their job

To a point, ADC's have it better because the method were they do a lot of DPS, gives them more impact against structures. So if a DPS mage had comparable DPS to an ADC, the ADC would still have a trump card that makes them more versatile.

And the problem with magical DPS is historically, you had no good way to counter it. Spell shields would only block the first cast of a rapid fire spell, and Hourglass would only buy you a little time. Only recently with the addition of Adaptive Helm, do we have at least one option to counterbuild dps. Prior to that, Magic DPS was balanced around the notion that their wasn't a good means to counter build.

Teridax68Sep 1, 20173 votes

I think the OP is trying to focus on a different point from yours: you're focusing on what makes marksmen mandatory in the game, and are arguing that marksmen aren't essential just because of tanks, since they're still just as present in metas where tanks are weak (which is all true). What the OP is focusing on is the exclusive relationship marksmen have with tanks, in that many classes besides the marksmen ought be good versus tanks, yet marksmen are the only ones allowed to have even more damage just to deal with the class. Because of this, they are advocating for more champions besides marksmen to be innately good at dealing with tanks, namely DPS mages.

Asayake 5150glowSep 1, 201712 votes

The bigger problem is that ADC's can kill mages and skirmishers just as well as they can tanks.

RalanrAug 31, 201710 votes

I assumed it was that ADCs themselves are taking the carry role too far and not letting anyone else have the fun of carrying.

SSShutTheDuckUpAug 31, 20172 votes

Depends on how you define "carrying". Any role has it's ways to do so, but for the most of the you have diversity. You can protect your backline with both enchanters and wardens, you can blow squishies both with burst mages and assassins and so on. When it comes to tank killing, however that's not the case

AhristocatsAug 31, 20179 votes

a carry is the role of dealing most damage in your team

adcs do not let this role to anyone else

skirmishers mages juggernauts

AirKingNeoSep 1, 20177 votes

~~adcs~~ riot's balance team do not let this role to anyone else

I mean, come on. We can't just blame ADCs and ADC players, who doesn't even work on the game at all, take blame for something that is blindly an error from live design.

An Undead bratSep 1, 20172 votes

Mages deal the same damage as ADCs xDDD To whom? Themselves? xDDD ADCs get their healthbar filled to full three times before mage can release their combo on them xD And tanks, well, that is the point of this post, hehe item 3194

AhristocatsSep 1, 20178 votes

Karthus can roflstomp your entire team faster than any adc, same with vladimir

adaptive helm is a flawed item, designed to counter battle mages, it ended up countering every single mage due to CDR being everywhere and requiered on every mages

AleksaTeemoSep 1, 20172 votes

Cassiopeia Azir Ahri Kassadin Malzahar Ziggs Syndra Orianna can all deal AOE dmg and burst adc very easily.Add 40% cdr from masteries+passive and oh well.

chipndip1Sep 1, 201710 votes

Not every class SHOULD be able to deal with tanks:

Assassins? FUCK No.

Divers? Kinda? Depends on the champ, honestly.

Skirmishers? Already do. Not as well in a team fight, but they already do.

Burst mage? No.

Artillery Mage? No.

Battle Mage? Already do as well since they can out-sustain and/or melt tanks.

Jugs? Already do, although it takes a solid minute of slap boxing unless your burst window's up.

Other tanks? ...I mean, technically a tank dies at the end, right?

Enchanters/Catchers? ...do we WANT a world where support-class champs can fight tanks?

Sagan ForeverSep 1, 20173 votes

Actually with some tanks like Maokai , Gragas , and Nautilus after a certain point in the game they will literally never kill each other in a 1 v 1 fight. They just shield and/or heal all the damage they do to each other.

chipndip1Sep 1, 20174 votes

I mean, someone's gonna go oom one day, right?

ProfDrDeathSep 1, 20173 votes

Someone, somewhere...eventually.

Unless they have item 3001 .

chipndip1Sep 1, 20173 votes

5 days later

AN ENEMY HAS BEEN SLAIN!

Maokai "WEEEEEE...ARE THE CHAMPIONS...MY FRRIIIIIIEEEEEENNNDS!!!!" Maokai

ProfDrDeathSep 2, 20172 votes

Slain, but only because they happened to stray to close to the 5 day minions...

RalanrSep 1, 20172 votes

Naut will lose eventually because of his lack of sustain.

EndlessSorcererSep 1, 20172 votes

Nautilus' mana costs and lack of percentage health damage definitely won't help.

RalanrSep 1, 20172 votes

That too.

Nautilus honestly doesn't last as long as people think he does because he has no way to regain what he loses. In a durable vs durable match up, Nautilus is at a disadvantage. Against squishies he's more terrifying.

An Undead bratSep 1, 20172 votes

Why shouldn't artillery mages deal with tanks? What should they do then? Be pretty and smile?

Of course I'm talking about the circumstances where mage keeps his distance and has perfect positioning, not melee scenario, if melee, they should lose and they do now. But I can't see why should they be bad against them in range ( Velkoz for example isn't and that's good).

KloqdqSep 1, 20173 votes

Artillery mages should harm them but not to the same degree that they harm now tanks. The point of them is just to smash everyone and primary hit people that other classes can't. They can more often hit a marksman way in the back while a battle mage or something would not be able too.

RalanrSep 1, 20173 votes

Artillery mages from my understanding are primarily burst and poke. Tanks naturally are strong against these.

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

And poke is basically a DPS, just on a long range (otherwise it's useless), so tanks should be basically vulnerable only to short ranged DPS?

RalanrSep 2, 20172 votes

Basically yeah. It'd be rather unhealthy if heavy DPS champions could kill them from poke since that would mean they could pretty much kill everyone before people got in range.

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

Well once in range, mages explode instantly.

RalanrSep 2, 20172 votes

Which is the point. Though it's not like mages are supposed to be stationary.

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

Of course. But that is my opinion, it's a tradeoff, if you don't get in their range, they should be able to deal with tanks.

RalanrSep 2, 20172 votes

But then they can deal with everyone. There's not much of a trade off.

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

Everyone can deal with them once they are close, isn't that fair? I see a clear counterplay.

RalanrSep 2, 20172 votes

Because usually they have tools to keep people off.

Mages shouldn't even be focusing tanks.

An Undead bratSep 3, 20171 votes

Normally noone should be focusing tanks...

Yes, that is included in the interaction - how well they can use them to outplay the enemy and how can the enemy outplay the spell (usually a skillshot).

RalanrSep 3, 20172 votes

ADC's should be focusing tanks normally.

EedatSep 1, 20178 votes

ADCs are strong because theyre unkillable under 5 shields, 3 heals, damage reduction and low effort peel for days

Mens Hair ClubAug 31, 20175 votes

because mages are bursty as hell and DPS mages not named karthus are all way burstier than they have any right to be Ryze ahem Azir

give melee carries tools to overcome the low-IQ tank CC chaining them and they'll pop right back into viability

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 1, 20175 votes

Marksmen have tools to be bursty as well - item 3087 item 3094 . Also their turret killing power is unmatched. If they can be strong both against stuctures and tanks, while packing a respectable burst, why mages couldn't be strong versus tanks and squishies, while being pretty mediocre at turret killing

Mens Hair ClubSep 1, 20176 votes

because mages are far more aoe focused the majority of the time. and they're not at all bad at taking turrets when they have AP

adcs are probably going to/should lose that item synergy anyhow

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 1, 20176 votes

I am not seeing it happens. I do not remember seeing a game without a marksman. Mages can be replaced with assassins, tanks - with bruisers and so on. Not the case with marksmen.

Also, AOE you say? Graves Jinx Kalista Tristana Twitch Sivir Xayah MissFortune item 3085

Sire HippingtonSep 1, 20172 votes

you forgot item 3087

An Undead bratSep 1, 20171 votes

Wtf mages with only AP ARE THE WORST class at taking turrets, where the fuck did you come up with this statement, even Janna with her shield is better than 99% of mages! Like really what is in people's minds these days...

Edit: My apology, I did never hear anything about this mechanic and still can't believe it works that way, sound so strange to me - even though it's more fair this way. I know this might hurt someone, but there is a but: This still is shit damage compared to the rest of the roster, Xin, Jax, Trist and others are able to take a turret in a second, maybe less, mages are still low tier at taking turrets - not as much as I said previously, but still.

KloqdqSep 1, 20173 votes

Mages get bonus damage against turrets the more AP they have. Try it in practice mode. A mage can deal a decent amount of damage to a turret with enough AP.

AirKingNeoSep 1, 20175 votes

Because mages have moderate CC, high burst damage, and other utilities (the strongest passives and actives for items).

It's unnatural for mages to break tanks. If they did, it would probably make them very broken, especially Cassiopeia.

MartyrofsandSep 1, 20172 votes

Strange I handle tanks pretty well as support Zyra/Brand when building a Liandries and I know Cassiopeia shreds through them pretty effectively as well. The issue is more along the lines of they are about in terms of DPS mages outside of maybe Swain but he is more AP tank than an AP caster.

SSShutTheDuckUpSep 1, 20173 votes

Yes, but even they are not as effective as marksmen, do not have access to lifesteal/spellvamp and are not nearly as good in taking turrets.

LordGeovanniSep 1, 20179 votes

Mages with ap chunk turrents they dont do constant dps but they are just as good at taking turrents as marksmen. Mage players on the other hand are not in the midset of auto attacking turrents even though turrents dont get extra magic resist like they get extra armor and they have less magic resist than armor in the first place. Mages are not supposed to be as effective at killing tanks as marksmen though i believe both do it too well. Tanks shouldnt get chunked for 40-25% of their hp by any one skill from a mage when they put all their gold into defense

ProfDrDeathSep 1, 20176 votes

Most sustained damage mages either have access to some form of sustain, meaning shields or HP return ( Ryze Vladimir Cassiopeia Rumble ). If they don't have that, they have higher range than most ADCs ( Azir )