So riot is already turning back on their claim supporting offroles paired with radio silence.

Shadow Hazard·Mar 27, 2018·21 votes·7,967 views

There is a growing number of disgruntled Irelia players that getting increasingly irate about the recent extreme hit to her ability to be able to viably jungle. The Q bonus damage to monsters was completely removed on top of the E damage to monsters being cut in half. As I have had the opportunity to try her in the jungle on the PBE I can say she sure as hell isn't going to be warping the jungle around her.

So why the complete silence from any rioter on this matter. The community would hope you would at least be waiting longer before blatantly turning back on the the claim of offrole support within such a short period of time. We would sure as hell want proper reasoning behind doing something that has been considered pretty thoughtless considering there were already pointed out issues before you decided to add more.

53 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 27, 201839 votes

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

Linna ExcelMar 27, 20183 votes

So why did riot pretend to care about what role irelia played in on one hand and then go and tell everyone who owns frost blade to go eff-off because one artist wanted to do winter wonderland irelia instead on the other hand? This is a glaring inconsistency in logic.

Also, Irelia was never a really legitimate jungler in the past largely because she couldn't afford to be one. It's not like her players didn't try her out there its that she was so gold gated that you tried it once and then took her back to lane.

RaxistaichoMar 27, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZqcBcTg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-03-27T23:13:54.971+0000)

So why did riot pretend to care about what role irelia played in on one hand and then go and tell everyone who owns frost blade to go eff-off because one artist wanted to do winter wonderland irelia instead on the other hand? This is a glaring inconsistency in logic.

That's Riot for you.

Hay5eedMar 28, 20181 votes

Except that even the new frostblade irelia ISN'T winter wonderland irelia.

Winter wonderland skins have a...well.. winter wonderland thematic to them. While not exactly tied to christmas they share some common themes and the winter wonderland skins focus on a more happy and cheery style. Like you can look at all the winter wonderland skins and imagine these characters having a lot of fun on a snowday throwing snowballs at eachother and building forts.

The new frostblade skin has red eyes, is throwing ice spikes at the viewer, and is gazing upon the veiwer with a dismissive glare. Doesn't exactly have "fun loving snowday" coming to mind.

Just because they took a bit of attention off of her ass doesn't give you a right to be pissy about it

Quality ContentMar 27, 201826 votes

If you feel like it's a disservice to change a champs roll with a rework then why was Graves taken away from all the people who played him bot lane?

Shadow HazardMar 27, 20184 votes

I think in this specific case it being quite a while ago before they solidly decided to support offrolling being the case. I think it was a much less considered point up to potentially being an ignored point for change.

2BeholdMar 28, 20183 votes

I think with graves it was because he was in a larger class update and so it was like 1 or 2 people making all of the decisions about his changes and I bet they didnt expect for him to shift so dramatically.

5000000000000000Mar 28, 20182 votes

It was a long time ago, back when they still did class updates. They said they won't do those anymore.

Akali is SO HOTMar 28, 20184 votes

I would assume that they hadn't anticipated that Graves would be an overpowered jungler when they reworked him. I don't think he really jungled at all until the pros started abusing him as well. Idk tho

RaxistaichoMar 27, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

Part of the problem here is that if she's capable of jungling at all she'll most likely be better off just going jungle than she would top, top lane being what it is now :/

Shadow HazardMar 27, 20181 votes

I think this should be a stronger poit for riot supporting her being able to off roll. I like to play diver champs but don't feel they can thrive as safely in top lane so go to jungle where you have the opportunity to choose to ignore the dangers that you don't have a choice about in lane. Irelia has had points in the past were she wasn't a good option but top lane was realistically her only choice. If the only choice isn't a good choice then there is no choice.

Shadow HazardMar 27, 20182 votes

I can understand the thought. I don't like it or agree with it though, since taking her into the jungle is something I was really looking forward to being able to do with her personally, and considering the number of vocal people that this targeted nerf has made its way into a recognized issue with the community. Considering that it is fair to say that the devs are actually against against the community in this matter to be honest.

Again I can understand the concerns about jungle outperforming solo lane for irelia, before her clears were really not bad although not top of the food chain for that point but her ganks had the opportunity to be the point that really caused jungle to outshine lane. This isn't just a objective analysis but also comes from experience of being able to play on the PBE. The changes slowed down the clears which alone would have been a good way to tone down the ganks but the clears are now also quite drastically less healthy (just barely better than live irelia so pretty bad). I have made this point of suggestion time and time again about her healing needs to scale better for someone who's core items, because it feels increasingly less appreciated as she gets more items.

WHEN it shows that the jungle nerfs went to far, but I'm sure you wont want to up her clear speed further increase the health of her clears through the Q healing. Assuming solo lane she'll be fine increase the heal on monsters by X%, her early jungle is healthier the clear speed is still toned down. If there is the possibility of her needing a buff all around, make the heal increase by X% for every Y% missing health, it would address the above concerns about it feeling less appreciated as she builds up, her damage is fine and frankly is in no need of buffs in my opinion. Considering the timing left it may be possible to implement the jungle specific consideration before last lock ins. Please consider it.

Teridax68Mar 27, 20182 votes

Sure, but what Riot has been telling us is that they've been working on a design and balancing methodology to better allow champions to operate across multiple positions. The question here is: is Riot using this methodology on Irelia? If she turns out to be too weak or unhealthy a jungler, how hard is it going to be to make her jungling work? Just off the top of your head, which levers would you tune in order to adjust her jungling while minimally affecting her laning, and vice versa?

jkirscheMar 28, 20184 votes

What is wrong with this? As long as she is a good solo laner what does it matter if she's also a good jungler? Solo laners aren't going to care if Irelia ends up being a very good jungler as long as she ends up as a good top laner as well.

Daedric EtwahlMar 28, 20184 votes

I... kinda understand where he's coming from, kinda.

Like... if Irelia was reworked, and people discovered she's a better jungler than toplaner, then she would become a jungler in the eyes of the playerbase, and then Riot might balance her for jungle at the expense of her toplane, alienating those players.

I kinda think about it like... if they were to rework Sona, I would be pretty upset if she somehow turned out to be a better midlaner than support, as I hate Sona mid.

jkirscheMar 28, 20183 votes

As long as Riot doesn't ruin her top lane potential then they won't care that her identity has been expanded. I appreciate not wanting to change her identity away from being a solo laner, but they don't HAVE to balance her into a jungler if she leans too far into being one.

Baron of BreadMar 28, 20182 votes

Before those changes Irelia would have been a jungler to be feared, she had amazing clears and her ganks were top notch. She would have been an extremely dominant jungler and that is something you don't want. Try fighting to get her top lane without her being picked up by either jungler or being banned before you even get a chance.

jkirscheMar 28, 20181 votes

I'm ok with some nerfs but these nerfs are massive. But hey, different* design choice.

The main issue here though is that that's not why they're nerfing it! They're not nerfing it because Irelia jungle is too strong for the meta to handle, they're nerfing it because they perceive Irelia fans as people who wouldn't want her to be able to jungle. If she ends up being problematic and her ability to jungle cannot be balanced then fine but they never gave it a chance and by the sound of it, they don't want to.

*edit here: derped the word choice.

Baron of BreadMar 28, 20181 votes

It sounded more to me was that they didn't want to make Irelia a primary jungler, which with her kit as it was she would have been. I agree they shouldn't nerf things out of off roles, but I don't think that was their primary intent here. Plus the Rioter has said that they will buff it back up a bit if her jungling becomes completely bad.

If they had let her initial version hit live then they would have to do this then in response to her enormous jungle win rate. Her clear speed was amazing, her dueling power is good, she has decent burst, and her ganking power is fantastic because of her easy to hit hard cc and double gap closer. If they didn't cripple her clear she could be a top tier jungler easily and the other areas they can't hit without affecting her top lane.

RaxistaichoMar 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZqcBcTg,comment-id=00030005000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T07:06:20.150+0000)

It sounded more to me was that they didn't want to make Irelia a primary jungler, which with her kit as it was she would have been. I agree they shouldn't nerf things out of off roles, but I don't think that was their primary intent here. Plus the Rioter has said that they will buff it back up a bit if her jungling becomes completely bad.

He said they COULD buff it up. You have to be careful with Riot and non-committal exact wording, it gets you every time.

Yordle XayahMar 28, 20182 votes

I ask you now about the upside to that

Karthus' Spotlight mentions him being able to Jungle... Where's the love for that play style?

TerozuMar 28, 20181 votes

I feel like you just don't have that playstyle as a person. Karthus Jungle is really unique and an odd split push factor. I've seen it carry games and i've seen ot fall in the dust. Generally the carriers are splitpushing and the dusters are trying to mage it up.

Yordle XayahMar 28, 20181 votes

Mmh yeah but... Karthus' main problem I feel is just his clear and sustain are pretty awful in the Jungle :(

JustCallMeSPEDMar 28, 20182 votes

Can I just say, man, you're a better person than most to be able to read something accusatory or inflammatory and turn out a well-measured and downright polite response time after time and day after day? Thank you.

General TherittMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

Not to sound too mean, but maybe doesn't that show that jungler is simply too impactful and maybe the jungle itself should be buffed overall to incentivize actual skill and timed ganks rather than relentlessly assaulting lanes while occasionally clearing a camp or two.

Not saying this isn't the only factor, but uh... maybe... idk, look at Warwick ? He's a perfect example that shows both his lane and jungle are very viable equally. I'm not gonna call you out, but just talk with the WW rework team (excluding CertaintlyT) and Irelia should turn out fine.

AAC WrathMar 28, 20182 votes

Are you not also doing a disservice by turning her from a bruiser into a fighter/skirmisher that can't survive in the sidelane vs tanks?

CrazFight Mar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

Makes complete since to me, neat ty

NeameanMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

Are you guy looking to change any of those victim who lost solo lane capability? Specifically Nidalee.

Cheap IcecreamMar 28, 20181 votes

I actually was hoping to play Irelia in the jungle after the update. I always thought her jungle clear was on the slower side, because Q/E mistakes felt like punishment during camps. Her new kit looks forgiving and removes her old status quo to win by 25min condition or go into lategame fall off. As an avid 5's player I considered team comps a big time struggle for myself when I have to choose between the role that suits the team or my team adjusts the comp around my pick. I think Irelia shouldn't be confined solely to top lane and given some freedom to fill multiple roles. Thank you for taking the time to read my comment and all the hard work that's been put into the rework, it looks amazing and has blown me away these last few weeks of anticipation.

"Mistakes are opportunities, you know." -Reignover

SILVER ELO GODMar 28, 20181 votes

So what about solo lane Nidalee then? Was that a disservice too? Because it sure as hell feels like it.

Liquid DarioMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The decision on this was made because the Irelia dev team felt like there was a legitimate chance her jungle performance would outshine her solo lane performance. If this was a brand new champion, that might be okay, but in her case, they thought it would be a large disservice to her current player base if they felt the champion they received with their update was no longer a solo laner. Yes, I'm aware that other champions have suffered this fate in the past. The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

WELP looks like im not playing the game again until you buff her back to be viable in the jungle. First thing I was looking forward to this whole season ... ripped away from me before I even had the chance to play it. Offrole support is SORELY needed ... why are you taking it away period ?

So basically she was becoming a useful jungler and you guys thought " nope they cant have that " and ripped it away from us for what ?

How is it a disservice if shes useful in both positions ... so what if it outshines her top lane performance. You guys had ZERO issue doing this to Graves, why is Irelia a special snowflake ?

I am personally quite angry about this Its bad enough we only get a truly good Jungler once maybe twice a year and even then they are boring bland and have the most BASIC abilities ever.

We do not get the Kai Sa's or the Irelia's or the Zoe's instead we get the same blind useless monk and dude with a lance every year ... who are basically OLD and not very enjoyable to play.

You guys really suck man I guess I will be sticking to Dragon Ball Fighter Z until you guys revert these Irelia changes. I am tired and give up on playing the same boring junglers year after year.

RaxistaichoMar 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Legendary Uchiha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZqcBcTg,comment-id=0003000e,timestamp=2018-03-28T10:34:08.339+0000)

I am personally quite angry about this Its bad enough we only get a truly good Jungler once maybe twice a year and even then they are boring bland and have the most BASIC abilities ever.

We do not get the Kai Sa's or the Irelia's or the Zoe's instead we get the same blind useless monk and dude with a lance every year ... who are basically OLD and not very enjoyable to play.

Looks like somebody hasn't tried Kayn.

Fluzzy1207Mar 28, 20181 votes

So any chance that "other champions who have suffered this fate in the past" will get their lane power back? Would love to be able to play nidalee mid again as that was one of my first and favorite champions in the midlane when I started playing this game. I do not like the jungle playstyle so hardly ever play her now unless I decide to do an ARAM and roll her.

Poop JellyMar 28, 20182 votes

I'd like Nid laning potential back too :"(

E1OMar 29, 20181 votes

I've maimed Irelia for 3 seasons and have 800k mastery and in my opinion it would not be a disservice to let irelia be viable in the jungle. The only reason she may feel strong in the jungle is because of the current terrible meta of top lane. Ie. Tanks.

Shadow HazardApr 14, 20181 votes

The intent is that jungling is still a legitimate option for Irelia upon release, and if it turns out to perform far worse than her solo lanes, we can buff it up to be closer to parity.

So you are just a flat liar. Or riot is simply incapable of reading statistics.....

NocturnalSheildMar 27, 20187 votes

Been playing for 7 years and i can honestly say ive never once seen an irelia jungle.

So i doubt they care about the whole 4 people they angered.

meowwow7Mar 27, 20183 votes

the only time i seen an irelia jungle was with that trailblazer smite but back then anything could have jungled with that smite enchant

Quil EvrythingMar 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

the only time i seen an irelia jungle was with that trailblazer smite but back then anything could have jungled with that smite enchant

irelia jg was awesome withi that old rageblade like jungle item thingie.

SlythionMar 27, 20181 votes

Devourer enchantment?

Heckin SupportMar 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Been playing for 7 years and i can honestly say ive never once seen an irelia jungle.

So i doubt they care about the whole 4 people they angered.

Are you insane? Don't you remember when item 3124 super strong on any attack speed reliant champion? She dominated in the jungle

NocturnalSheildMar 28, 20181 votes

Ah yes i do remember that. Must of blocked it out.

SociopathFriendMar 28, 20182 votes

I'd imagine her jungle was terrifying. She had both a great deal of CC, tankiness, and mobility; most Junglers have to pick one or two of those- not all 3. And quite a few of those same junglers don't get decent clear- which she also had.

KorZodMar 28, 20182 votes

warwick? xin zhao? zac? sej? graggy?

Bernie SąndersMar 28, 20181 votes

She's a decent jungler now, and if it performs equally to it does now for clears, i don't see the big deal. Based on sites like op.gg..., almost all players who selects her uses her for top lane 100% of the time. so I can totally understand why they want to keep that focus.

RenanReinMar 28, 20181 votes

Why are people so pissed about this? Reav3 had said Irelia's rework was aiming her as a solo lane. Still, they gave her interactions with monsters and AP ratios to make alternative builds work "fine" (jungler and ap irelia), but this doesn't implies that this are her optimized way to play.

She can jungling fine, even with the nerfs (she still has the mark on monsters). Just isn't her primarly role, and that's ok. RiotRepertoir made valid points, they know that reworking a champion implies on keep their essence and playstyle. Now I ask you, which large rework (I said large, VGU, relaunch) changed the role of a champion? Let's take a look at the lastest reworks?

Poppy
Taric
Ryze
Yorick
Warwick
Galio
Urgot
Evelynn
Swain

None of them changed the role of this champions, even the Poppy jungle and Warwick top that were used rarely before still be used sometimes today. Urgot was used as ADC back in Season 2, but after that, he changed to solo laner and this became his main role.

Graves isn't a valid argument, because he was reworked in a different kind of project, and Riot had already said that this "Classes Reworks" didn't hit the mark. They even reverted Kog, Rengar and now Leblanc.

So, stop complaining guys, she still can jungling as much as the current Irelia can (even better IMO). This is not a new champion like Repertoir said, it's a rework and they can't just make her jungle potential outshine her solo lane performance.

RaxistaichoMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why are people so pissed about this? Reav3 had said Irelia's rework was aiming her as a solo lane. Still, they gave her interactions with monsters and AP ratios to make alternative builds work "fine" (jungler and ap irelia), but this doesn't implies that this are her optimized way to play.

She can jungling fine, even with the nerfs (she still has the mark on monsters). Just isn't her primarly role, and that's ok. RiotRepertoir made valid points, they know that reworking a champion implies on keep their essence and playstyle. Now I ask you, which large rework (I said large, VGU, relaunch) changed the role of a champion? Let's take a look at the lastest reworks?

Poppy

Taric

Ryze

Yorick

Warwick

Galio

Urgot

Evelynn

Swain

Urgot was technically played everywhere since he was so unfocused.

VvVVvVMar 28, 20181 votes

She can still jungle...its just that people who main her in the jungle are mad that they cant just shred the jungle as fast as they used to. Just because there was changes doesnt mean she just cant simply jungle anymore.