Can whoever designed Omnistone explain who is intended to use it, and why they would choose it?

Yenn·Nov 22, 2019·103 votes·26,666 views

This rune is baffling. I don't understand how it made it through design and into the game. It's very obviously not good; no champion can use every rune efficiently, and you're at a major disadvantage while you have an undesirable rune. I can't see any scenario where a random rune would ever be a better choice than having your optimal rune 100% of the time.

Even if the idea was just to keep the RNG factor that Klepto had, it still doesn't translate, because Klepto wasn't purely random (i.e. the number of gold bags you get over a game was obviously normalized).

It really seems like this rune was shoved into the game with no thought, unless I'm missing something.

130 Comments

KFCeytronNov 22, 201952 votes

We got random dragons a while back, random plants a year or two ago, now we have a random rune. Maybe next year, the game will switch you to a random new champion every time you recall.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qwWeiu0Rg3g/maxresdefault.jpg

Velzard of KozNov 22, 20196 votes

The year after that the client will close itself and start different randomly chosen game for maximal fresh experience

FilDaFunkNov 22, 201923 votes

There's a fun ARAM idea.

MhihnjNov 22, 201912 votes

i wouldn't mind that tbh but then

Veigar item 3089 item 3285 item 3157

recalls

Zed item 3089 item 3285 item 3157

LatetotheRaceNov 23, 20192 votes

Something something his passive does magic damage something something.

(Also always build lich bane or nashors JUST in case.)

ZackTheWaffleManJan 6, 20201 votes

All items are refunded in full when recalling, maybe?

ValiantKillerNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

We got random dragons a while back, random plants a year or two ago, now we have a random rune. Maybe next year, the game will switch you to a random new champion every time you recall.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qwWeiu0Rg3g/maxresdefault.jpg

yet we don't have random skin picker! [slayer-jinx-wink]

KFCeytronNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

yet we don't have random skin picker! [slayer-jinx-wink]

https://i.imgur.com/YAGpXPd.png[]

ValiantKillerNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

https://i.imgur.com/YAGpXPd.png[]

You know, We can't do what community ask for , we do what is toxic for game

OleandervineJan 6, 20201 votes

Instead, they be like "How bout them Eternals guys?"

ValiantKillerJan 6, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Instead, they be like "How bout them Eternals guys?"

RavenMagusNov 24, 20191 votes

You ask for something that modern technology simply cannot handle.

ValiantKillerNov 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You ask for something that modern technology simply cannot handle.

Ohhhhh

Tomoe GozenNov 23, 20191 votes

The definition of "random" means unpredictable, without a pattern. Nothing you're concerned about, actually randomizes your gameplay that you can't predict.

"Random" dragons ONLY affects the buff you're supposed to get from them and what dragon spawns next is BEING SHOWN to you, 5 minutes ahead of schedule (first spawn or killing the previous dragon). You know ahead of time if the dragon is specifically worth to you or to your team and whether you want to contest it or not, at a given moment.

"Random" plants are again a logical fallacy because, same as dragons, they have specific sectors in which they spawn in. Plants spawn as inactive seeds and take 60 seconds to become usable. The spawn locations for the first wave of plants is predetermined, while subsequent plants can spawn in at least one other spot. You're never going to find yourself in a situation where it pops right in front of you or your enemy, for an "UNPREDICTABLE" situation you couldn't plan for.

Omnistone keystones cycle semi-randomly; a keystone is not repeated for 5 rolls after it has been used. Aftershock is only available to champions who have learned a basic spell that can trigger it. Predator is only available to champions who have already purchased boots.

The idea behind Omnistone is to have a rune that can allow you to adapt to multiple situations and plan gameplay patterns around it. Many champions can work with multiple runes and no champion synergizes with their runes 100%. Some don't even have good options but are forced to use the "best" rune available to them. No rune here is 100% efficient for every champion. That's as clear as day.

The other idea for Omnistone is to replace Kleptomancy but not give boons such as free wards, gold, elixirs and potions (among gold bags), which is clearly making champions farm gold by being mostly passive in their lane and poking a bit. This is why ranged champions thrive with it, as they can both abuse their range to constantly harass people and get rewarded for it without getting a kill, in gold.

KFCeytronNov 23, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

The definition of "random" means unpredictable, without a pattern. Nothing you're concerned about, actually randomizes your gameplay that you can't predict.

By your logic, next piece preview in Tetris means that the pieces aren't selected randomly.

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

"Random" dragons ONLY affects the buff you're supposed to get from them and what dragon spawns next is BEING SHOWN to you, 5 minutes ahead of schedule (first spawn or killing the previous dragon). You know ahead of time if the dragon is specifically worth to you or to your team and whether you want to contest it or not, at a given moment.

Selecting something randomly and then not doing anything with it for a few minutes doesn't mean it's not random.

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

"Random" plants are again a logical fallacy because, same as dragons, they have specific sectors in which they spawn in. Plants spawn as inactive seeds and take 60 seconds to become usable. The spawn locations for the first wave of plants is predetermined, while subsequent plants can spawn in at least one other spot. You're never going to find yourself in a situation where it pops right in front of you or your enemy, for an "UNPREDICTABLE" situation you couldn't plan for.

Constraints on a random event don't make it not random. Standard dice can only result in numbers 1 through 6, but it's still a random number, even though you'll never find yourself in a situation where a 15 pops up in front of you for an "UNPREDICTABLE" situation.

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

Omnistone keystones cycle semi-randomly; a keystone is not repeated for 5 rolls after it has been used. Aftershock is only available to champions who have learned a basic spell that can trigger it. Predator is only available to champions who have already purchased boots.

Tetris produces each tetromino exactly once before shuffling the bag again, rather than choosing a random one with replacement every time. This is to prevent nonsense like getting 20 S tetrominoes in a row. If tetrominoes 8-13 in your game contain everything but the square, you know that #14 will be the square. And yet, pieces are selected "randomly," even with this constraint.

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

The idea behind Omnistone is to have a rune that can allow you to adapt to multiple situations and plan gameplay patterns around it. Many champions can work with multiple runes and no champion synergizes with their runes 100%. Some don't even have good options but are forced to use the "best" rune available to them. No rune here is 100% efficient for every champion. That's as clear as day.

I tried out new SR with Swain, running Omnistone. I sure adapted to having Hail of Blades on Swain. Yep, that was an interesting gameplay pattern to plan around.

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:04:25.178+0000)

The other idea for Omnistone is to replace Kleptomancy but not give boons such as free wards, gold, elixirs and potions (among gold bags), which is clearly making champions farm gold by being mostly passive in their lane and poking a bit. This is why ranged champions thrive with it, as they can both abuse their range to constantly harass people and get rewarded for it without getting a kill, in gold.

Yes, Klepto was a bad idea (mostly because of Ezreal, as with many things), but so is Omnistone.

Tomoe GozenNov 23, 20191 votes

Your dice example is incorrect. If you want a correct analogy to the dragon buffs example, imagine rolling the dice BUT every time on your next roll, you already know the outcome.

Randomness of dragon buffs exists in the script that determines their spawns BUT that's the part of the equation that's never mixed with your gameplay BECAUSE each and every buff is being announced 5 minutes ahead of time. You already know the specific information that you need to know in order to make an informed decision about contesting the dragon or trading it for other objectives.

I tried out new SR with Swain, running Omnistone. I sure adapted to having Hail of Blades on Swain. Yep, that was an interesting gameplay pattern to plan around.

"In other news, water is wet."

I did say that no Keystone (rune) is 100% efficient on every champion. Champions with very limited Keystone choices obviously can't use Omnistone as they'd get more bad Keystone rolls than good ones. If your only problem is that you managed to get a Keystone that doesn't synergize with your kit, that's the point. Omnistone is not supposed to have 100% uptime and having you switch your gameplay between your most synergetic runes, is not the design philosophy behind it.

Secondly, "it's the pre-season". If Omnistone can be buffed, this is the ideal time for Riot to gather a bigger sample size than the one they had internally or on PBE.

KFCeytronNov 23, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=0005000300000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T16:53:30.751+0000)

Your dice example is incorrect. If you want a correct analogy to the dragon buffs example, imagine rolling the dice BUT every time on your next roll, you already know the outcome.

Randomness of dragon buffs exists in the script that determines their spawns BUT that's the part of the equation that's never mixed with your gameplay BECAUSE each and every buff is being announced 5 minutes ahead of time. You already know the specific information that you need to know in order to make an informed decision about contesting the dragon or trading it for other objectives.

"In other news, water is wet."

I did say that no Keystone (rune) is 100% efficient on every champion. Champions with very limited Keystone choices obviously can't use Omnistone as they'd get more bad Keystone rolls than good ones. If your only problem is that you managed to get a Keystone that doesn't synergize with your kit, that's the point. Omnistone is not supposed to have 100% uptime and having you switch your gameplay between your most synergetic runes, is not the design philosophy behind it.

Secondly, "it's the pre-season". If Omnistone can be buffed, this is the ideal time for Riot to gather a bigger sample size than the one they had internally or on PBE.

If you generate a random datum, announce the result, and then delay some of its impact until later, that's still random. When the dragon type/buff is announced, that is information you didn't know and couldn't have predicted, because it's random.

Getting good or bad runes with Omnistone doesn't make it interesting, and doesn't make it anything other than random.

"iT's PrE-sEaSoN" is the go-to excuse for pushing unmitigated trash to live servers every year. After pre-season, we have to wait for things to settle down before we can make any judgment calls, but then there's the mid-season patch, and then we have to wait for that to settle down, and then it doesn't matter anymore because next pre-season is around the corner.

Tomoe GozenNov 24, 20191 votes

If you generate a random datum, announce the result, and then delay some of its impact until later, that's still random. When the dragon type/buff is announced, that is information you didn't know and couldn't have predicted, because it's random.

You're literally debating me on the philosophy of randomness. You're not even helping your argument.

Everything about dragon buffs is already information you know. Their first spawn time, their spawn time in between kills, the 4 possible buffs, the specific buff stats, your team's selected champions, your opponent's selected champions, which champs synergize with specific buffs, etc. The only thing you don't know is which buff will spawn next. And even then, when the result is determined from a script, this information is also given to you minutes ahead of their first/next spawn so you know which buff to expect.

Nothing about dragon buffs, in terms of their gameplay and interaction with champions, is random. It's the same thing with jungle plants. That's the whole point of this argument.

"iT's PrE-sEaSoN" is the go-to excuse for pushing unmitigated trash to live servers every year

Two words - sample size. Kleptomancy isn't fun and interactive, something has to take its place and not be straight out removed from the game. PBE is not a place where Riot can actually make balance changes, given the players there generally don't care about playing the game according to the meta and skill range is very big, among the frequent AFKs and 150 ping to non-US players.

PBE is mostly for bug testing. Live is where the real resting is always done, considering League's two week patch cadence that usually carries buffs/nerfs to champs/items.

KFCeytronNov 24, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=000500030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-24T13:56:57.131+0000)

You're literally debating me on the philosophy of randomness. You're not even helping your argument.

Everything about dragon buffs is already information you know. Their first spawn time, their spawn time in between kills, the 4 possible buffs, the specific buff stats, your team's selected champions, your opponent's selected champions, which champs synergize with specific buffs, etc. The only thing you don't know is which buff will spawn next. And even then, when the result is determined from a script, this information is also given to you minutes ahead of their first/next spawn so you know which buff to expect.

Nothing about dragon buffs, in terms of their gameplay and interaction with champions, is random. It's the same thing with jungle plants. That's the whole point of this argument.

Two words - sample size. Kleptomancy isn't fun and interactive, something has to take its place and not be straight out removed from the game. PBE is not a place where Riot can actually make balance changes, given the players there generally don't care about playing the game according to the meta and skill range is very big, among the frequent AFKs and 150 ping to non-US players.

PBE is mostly for bug testing. Live is where the real resting is always done, considering League's two week patch cadence that usually carries buffs/nerfs to champs/items.

It's not a "philosophy." You're simply wrong. Just because a random choice has constraints doesn't mean it's totally predictable and not random. When "the only thing you don't know is which buff will spawn next," that is a random dragon. I don't know how long you've been playing, but there used to only be one kind of dragon, so there was no unpredictability about it. Introducing different varieties of drakes that are chosen based on no preceding event is a random element, by definition.

Similarly, the exact spawn time and location of each type of jungle plant is chosen randomly. For example, Scryer's Bloom can appear in two possible locations in each quadrant. Once a quadrant's Scryer's Bloom is destroyed, it respawns in one of these two locations, chosen at random. The respawn timer is a randomly chosen duration between 5 and 6.5 minutes (starting after the plant is destroyed). Plants, therefore, are another source of randomness in the game.

I see nothing wrong with simply removing Klepto from the game, as it was mostly only used by Ez, with a few occasional outliers like GP (both of these being more "abuse cases" than "use cases," highlighting the problem with the rune). If it did have to be replaced for some reason, it should've been replaced with something good, not something terrible like Omnistone. Klepto was a poorly-conceived idea in a past preseason, and Omnistone is a poorly-conceived idea in the current preseason. Justifying Omnistone with "something has to take its place" is a form of the politician's syllogism: "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."

I wasn't referring to live in contrast to PBE, wasn't even thinking about PBE. I just meant "push to live servers" as a way of saying "add new changes to the game." Sorry for that confusion.

RavenMagusNov 24, 20191 votes

I'm in for that game mode

boricCentaur1Nov 22, 201917 votes

It's so fucking bad it's not funny like they should of made it so you can pick what you get that would be good.

Having it be rng ruins it for champions since there will always be a best keystone for a game no matter who you are.

Like why remove a actually good rune that gives people a choice for a shit rune that is basically for trolls?

Z3SIeeperNov 22, 20199 votes

Or at the very least have it choose from only the Keystones in your secondary tree + Glacial Augment.

That way the RNG would be controlled to some extent. Would be pretty good with Sorcery, Precision and Domination but Resolve would be kinda... eh.

PaffWasTakenNov 22, 201914 votes

I think the reason it got created is because they didn't really want to design a whole new keystone mechanic, so they just sticked every existing mechanics together with some code and voila.

ZackTheWaffleManJan 6, 20201 votes

Read that as "code and vodka" and I honestly didn't bat an eye, because that's Riot in a nutshell

RebeccaUCuberNov 22, 201911 votes

Above all ppl said here...having Dark Harvest once every 8-10 runes is so useless idk why they put that in Omnistone at all.

It seems it's a trolling Runes more than anything else.

The VolcanoNov 23, 20194 votes

The stacks do apply to all the runes though.

ThingamajigNov 22, 20197 votes

lane bullies would use it best lane bullies that don't particularly like any keystone

teemo jayce quinn and the like may use it pretty well

BeatzBoyFTWNov 22, 201922 votes

If they wanted to be lane bullies, they'd rather just stick to that 1 specific Keystone that helps them a lot in doing so.

I'd rather play Teemo with Aery more than inconsistently shifting my Keystone to a fking Predator.

LarcosNov 22, 20194 votes

{quoted}

lane bullies would use it best lane bullies that don't particularly like any keystone

teemo jayce quinn and the like may use it pretty well

I have no idea why you are being downvoted. Board is just being a bully at this point right now lol. You gave your opinion and flamed absolutely no one. What is wrong with you people.

Z3SIeeperNov 23, 20195 votes

The real voting system: Upvote or downvote based on whether or not you agree.

Your mental version of the voting system: Upvote for good vibes and downvote to bully people.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20192 votes

I pretty much exclusively up/down vote based on agreement/disagreement.

Shabada64Nov 22, 20196 votes

The idea is that you work with what you get. That's what makes it interesting. But like you said, there is no reason to take a random keystone when you could just take your optimal one. I think Omnistone needs to get buffed in some way to make it viable.

Take for example, Conqueror Sylas vs Prototype: Omnistone Sylas . Conqueror is objectively and mathematically better for Sylas at all times, because you will only get Conqueror some of the time with Prototype: Omnistone.

Now, let's say Prototype: Omnistone was buffed so that it also makes the random keystones 20% stronger. In that case, some games Sylas might be better off taking Prototype: Omnistone for the versatility it offers, and the occasionally stronger version of Conqueror.

CobothegreatNov 26, 20191 votes

What you and everyone else here seems to be missing is that DH stacks effect all other keystones so Conq Sylas vs Omnistone Conq Sylas with 3stacks of DH the Omnistone sylas is getting a bigger benefit from conq.

NelsieLisnenNov 22, 20196 votes

Big surprise? Naaaah. However, what's funniest to me was that Riot removed Kleptomancy because it was supposedly too versatile. Instead of nerfing it and maybe introducing a 4th keystone, they completely remove it and introduce a joke of a keystone. Not only that, their new Conqueror is not just versatile anymore. It's taken by like 50% of the champion pool. Mages can use it, ADCs can use it, Juggernauts, Bruisers, it's even better than before on champions it was already good on. But let's just put HALF of the blame on riot and try to find the root of the problem. So, yeah, kleptomancy was never the problem, the problem is:

A) The kneejerking playerbase that constantly whines and wants things removed instead of brainstorming to fix them B) Riot pandering to that unfortunately hefty portion of the playerbase.

Like, on the same train of thought, why not just dump champs like Yasuo, Fiora and Akali to a garbage bin and replace them with rushed imitations instead of trying to find viable solutions to the champs themselves? It's really pretentious of many people, because when you want an organic part of the game to be straight up removed, that is like you will for the game to be thrown into a state of imbalance, unavoidably. So why act all flustered when this very imbalance and the rushed attempts to fix it, because something has to fill the place of lost mechanics and items, turns out to be imbalanced?

Marianna KrossNov 22, 20192 votes

So, it's not a developer's job to know how to balance, implement that balance, and it's our fault that they are (what you think is) pandering? You are relying on heaps of false equivalence as well. Reworking Kleptomancy is way more in-depth and carries more of an impact than "finding viable solutions to champs". You can take Kleptomancy on any champion. You can't play Yasuo, Fiora, or Akali if you are playing anyone who isn't those champions.

Basically, change a champion, you mainly affect one champion. Change how a rune works, it ripples much further.

NelsieLisnenNov 23, 20191 votes

It's a developers job to approach balance as well as they can whilst NOT having an adequate sample to test the new balance on. The job of the playerbase is to test this balance and come up with sound criticisms. But here's the thing, this mass of people operates more on reactionary thinking. I see people posting delete Yasuo memes even though the strengths and weaknesses of this champ have been explored and exposed in depth ever since his release. What is your stance? That the playerbase of which a sizable part consists of immature 12 year olds can judge what balanced gameplay is while being faultless and holy? False equivalence? You know champions have a little thing called matchups right? And matchups are key elements in the fabric of the meta right? You know, the way in which champions interact with and against each other creating a power structure? Why don't you try removing lee sin from the meta and see whether or not no other lane and champ notices that? What about Gragas? Kai'sa? Renekton? Hmm. Klepto can be taken by any champ? Sure, just like ANY other keystone can be used by ANY champion save for a few. What kind of a point is that? And if we follow your logic about champions, then Klepto wouldn't really affect champions that didn't use it exclusively. Klepto was used not by everyone, but by champs who didn't have any other optimal options set in stone, so that they could benefit from the earlier powerspike it offered. That doesn't mean it was optimal on most champs. No adc save for Ez used it, and the top Karmas and Viktors were sufficiently driven out of the meta long before Klepto was removed.

SaezioNov 23, 20192 votes

Klepto was a problem. If you don't see that, ask a friend of your's that is high elo and plays top lane

NelsieLisnenNov 23, 20191 votes

Why don;t you explain, since you seem to understand the "problem"?

MaybeM4rkNov 23, 20191 votes

Karma Kennen Kayle Illaoi

There.

SirGankNov 22, 20195 votes

The design seems awful because there is no positive trade offs.

With klepto, you lost an offensive and consistent runes to get RNG items. The benefit was the items was something you can use to augment your playstyle, or dust to get gold. So at the very least, for champs without a real keystone, or even champs with a good stone, it provided an option with a clear benefit. Extra gold.

The problem is theres no benefit for anyone. If your champ has a clear cut rune to use, this rune would just handicap them. I wouldn't want to get,bfor example, fleet on my support or something. For the champs that have no dedicated rune or a versatile rune, it looks like it would have potential but it still boils down to, "why would I take a random rune every x seconds when i can just take the one that's strongest for this match up?"

I think it should give the rune a high, high and a low low. It needs some kinda incentive to be used. I'd personally see it as appealing if it gave stronger versions of normal runes but on a long CD.

For example: Omnistone harvest: will deal 40-120 bonus damage opposed to the 20-60 but then a cooldown kicks in and the player is without any stone for a min or 2. Then they get say, phase rush that will give a larger ms speed boost but then again they'll be runeless for a while. It would be a lot more interesting to play around those unique power windows imo.

vurtruviousNov 23, 20194 votes

Laughs in Udyr

Vlada CutNov 22, 20193 votes

Camille and Jax because they can use any Keystone in the game. Altho both preffer New Conqueror because of the way it functions.

Garson211Nov 22, 20192 votes

Rune for trolls, i seen 3 times this rune all 3 used by inters to rundown mid.EVEN TROLLS HAVE NOW RUNE THX RITO POGCHAMP

AstronomyNov 23, 20192 votes

Actually I'm very interested in hearing what Riot or the people who designed the keystone have to say about it

World peace plzNov 22, 20191 votes

The stone should somehow know what champ you play like for example jax i can live with it to get random afthershock pta or qon but when i would play champs like teemo it dont give runes like afther shock cause its useless on teemo. Wont solve the rng mutch but it would help that the runes know not to give runes like afthershock on champs who cant proc it at all.

Pierce The VealNov 22, 20194 votes

It already doesn’t give aftershock on champions that can’t proc it. It also doesn’t give predator on champions without boots.

The only problem remaining are lethality tempo, press the attack, and hail of blades. Those are useless and in fact harmful on most mages.

World peace plzNov 22, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PZThd0F7,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-11-22T13:40:01.168+0000)

It already doesn’t give aftershock on champions that can’t proc it. It also doesn’t give predator on champions without boots.

The only problem remaining are lethality tempo, press the attack, and hail of blades. Those are useless and in fact harmful on most mages.

Well thats kinda what i try to say that the rune at least should avoid giving those champs that are either useless or do harm than good on them.

Pierce The VealNov 23, 20192 votes

Yeah. It’s just when you said aftershock it was a little misleading because champs without hard cc don’t get it anyway.

GenOblivionDec 27, 20191 votes

If they buff the rune to be more consistent in giving you what you need then it will be broken on champs that could run various runes if it stays inconsistent then it's garbage. It's either OP or useless, no in between.

TJK2719Jan 6, 20201 votes

It’s completely mind blowing that this rune was made to replace klepto they just made the entire inspiration rune tree useless