Turrets don't need more damage, just armor pen and defensive stats

Unlucky47··18 votes·1,508 views

I agree that people can dive them too easily if they have armor, but diving is a viable tactic whether you like it or not. People should be able to dive turrets. The problem is that people can dive turrets for way too long. So adding some armor pen to make it harder for people with only a little bit of armor is fine. Making turrets do just more damage is going to have the unintended consequence of fucking over half the champions in the game when they get in a little to attack a turret or something and then take a shot from dealing damage or running out of minions. They're going to lose half their health from a single shot when they feel like they weren't even in range or deserved a tower hit in the first place and that's going to give a huge advantage to the enemy laner for free.

The real problem is how quickly players take turrets. Just add defenses and don't make bot or any turret weaker than the others. I used to main jungle and I liked the idea of being able to decide what was best for your team by ganking mid/top/bot or farming. Now there's only one answer.

17 Comments

PhDs Nuts3 votes

The worst offenders are the champions that don't even build armor but can dive you anyway because they built a little extra HP in their damage items while their base armor does the rest. I'm looking at stuff like Fiora, Hecarim, Lee Sin, Irelia, Riven, Fizz, etc. They have a Black Cleaver, Trinity Force, or Protobelt and suddenly they can burst you under the turret, tank 3-4 shots thanks to shields/heals/invulnerability, and get out without a problem because turrets are useless after 10-12 minutes.

Spoofghoul1 votes

This

as a tank player i would say

give turrets 4 + 2x level flat pen this adds up to 40 by the time people hit level 18 gives turrets more damage vs the squishy abusers In addition turrets should apply grievous wounds for 1 second

This would make it so that in order to actually tank a turrets you would need to acquire the go to defensive stats such as armor and health. And not just a flimsy amount like i buy protobelt im fine now, but defensive item like randuins or deadmans should be enough to tank in the early to midgame while needing a possibly some more health or armor to tank them further into the game

For most tanks juggernauts and fighters this would not give many issues as they would get plenty of defenses anyway

And everyone else just has to be more carefull and calculated with their dives, this would get rid of adc's or assassins tanking 15 turret shots because they can

dunder kill2 votes

Armor pen is more damage though

Unlucky472 votes

Yeah technically I should've put bonus armor pen and not armor pen. Either way it's more damage but the problem isn't from non-tank champions diving you. it's the bruiser/tanks

LankPants2 votes

I heavily disagree.

A logical strength of a tank is to be able to take tower damage, currently they do that. The tower will deal a fair bit of damage to the tank, it's probably on the low side but it's on the low side for everyone, not just tanks.

The single biggest offender in tower dives right now is Lee Sin, historically champs like Fizz, Elise and Ekko have been up there. What makes a champion an insane tower diver is the ability to tank a couple of shots then drop agro, being able to tank a couple more on top of that when absolutely needed.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I heavily disagree.

A logical strength of a tank is to be able to take tower damage, currently they do that. The tower will deal a fair bit of damage to the tank, it's probably on the low side but it's on the low side for everyone, not just tanks.

The single biggest offender in tower dives right now is Lee Sin, historically champs like Fizz, Elise and Ekko have been up there. What makes a champion an insane tower diver is the ability to tank a couple of shots then drop agro, being able to tank a couple more on top of that when absolutely needed.

i think the true issue is the heating up mechanic of turrets. the fact that turrets dont deal much damage on their first two shots made it easier to juggle turret aggro and to dive the enemy at early levels, it made it easier for mobile champions who can get in and out of turret range quicker and take less shots, and it made it easier to trade single turret shots for poke at someone under his turret.

they need to get rid of that mechanic and make turrets deal full damage on their first shot again.

LankPants2 votes

I don't have a problem with the ramp, I think it's a good mechanic. It punishes poorly executed dives no matter who does them. In fact I think this mechanic punishes divers who rely on mobility over tankiness harder than the other way around.

Tanking an extra 60-80 damage (before armour) isn't that huge for a tank. Tanking an extra 60-80 damage as Lee Sin is quite substantial, tanking up to the 3rd or 4th shot as Lee Sin because you got CCed will chunk away most of your HP bar. The problem is that you should die to that, straight up. The ramp isn't extreme enough. There's also some problem champions, but these need to be looked at on a champion level.

As I've said, if buffing this ends up making towerdiving as a tank too hard that's when you look at the % pen and reeling that back down from 30% to 20 or 15%.

they need to get rid of that mechanic and make turrets deal full damage on their first shot again.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V0.9.25.24

Towers have always ramped. They first got this mechanic in the Nasus patch. There's not really an 'again' about this, if towers did 100% on their first hit it would be the first time since league's early beta late alpha.

Unlucky471 votes

And I disagree with your list. If those champions don't build armor they aren't going to be tanking multiple tower shots. They can tank 2 or 3 at the most and then they'll have 100 health left if even. The reason those champions are good divers isn't because of any weakness or fault of the turret. It is simply because of what those champions have in their kits.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

{quoted}

And I disagree with your list. If those champions don't build armor they aren't going to be tanking multiple tower shots. They can tank 2 or 3 at the most and then they'll have 100 health left if even. The reason those champions are good divers isn't because of any weakness or fault of the turret. It is simply because of what those champions have in their kits.

lolno.

At LEVEL THREE Reksai can tank 3 turret shots with 100 hp left. If a champion is either low or CCd (so unable to retaliate), there's absolutely nothing they can do about being dove.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3oBKlTtvi4

  • At 1:54 he tanks 2 shots at level 3 (no items yet) with over 300 hp remaining (started at just over 600 out of 703 max).
  • At 4:18 (level 8) he turret dives and takes 3 turret shots (could have safely been 4), and still hasn't even built armor or HP yet. This is 9 minutes into the game.
  • At 5:10 (almost 13 minutes into the game) his only "tank" items are a Ruby Crystal and Cinderhulk. He takes 2 turret shots which deal less than 25% of his max hp (1401hp - 928 hp, so 473 damage out of 1900 max hp). He still doesn't have any armor, yet can safely tank at least 6 turret shots in a dive. It would be closer to 8 shots, because CotC wasn't even available yet since it was on CD from the lane fight.
Shuyin1781 votes

Just swap Tower Damage to true damage.

Unlucky471 votes

yes because when I tower dive as an assassin I want to die instantly from a single tower hit

Shuyin1781 votes

Obviously damage would be adjusted accordingly, possibly making it a certain %Max HP damage.

LankPants1 votes

While I disagree with changing tower damage to true damage as the other guy suggested a tower should absolutely rip an assassin to shreds. If you try to dive as an assassin and you get CCed or for some reason tank an extra tower shot it should be punishing, in the case of getting CCed as a squishy under a tower I think it should be a 100% death sentence.

Right now towers fail to punish champions who aren't significantly tanky, either because they're a squishy champ or it's early into the game correctly. Turrets gain 40% increased damage on each auto capping out at 120% increased damage, I think this should be changed to an amount scaling from 60% up to 80% at around 15 minutes capping at 180% to 240%. That way if a squishy champ gets stuck tanking tower shots they get themselves a new arsewhole ripped open by the tower. I think this would move towers to killing an assassin in 3-4 shots, which seems like an appropriate number, it would increase the overall risk of dives, especially without a tank significantly.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

here is the problem with increasing turret damage.

youre only punishing slower champions who take more turret shots on average on a duive and are less likely to dive you in the first place. unless theyve stacked a shitload of defenses, which takea a while to build up.

like you wont get hit under your turret by a darius or dived by him before he hasnt at least completed a full armor + health item for example.

the champions that dive you at lvl 2 with their buddy arent tanks or heavy fighters. its champions like elise, lee sin, or assassins like leblanc or fizz.

bascally highly mobile, bursty champions who take less turret shots on a dive in the first place and have mechanics to drop turret aggro after theyve dived and killed you.

on top of that the "heating up" mechanic that makes turrets deal almost no damage on the first 2 shots adds to that problem. so these champions not only take less turret shots in the first place, but also these few shots they take dont even deal full damage.

changing turret damage to true damage wont change shit in those cases, and only benefit these champions in the long run.

LankPants1 votes

Maybe towers should just ground on attack or something. Not for the whole length between tower shots but for half a second after they attack or something in that neighbourhood (just for context towers attack once every 1.2 seconds). If you restrict when a champ like Lee Sin can jump away it might just lead to more overall risk inherent in dives.

Either way I'm still in favour of increasing the ramp damage on towers. Even if it doesn't always punish the current set of diving champs it at least leads to situations where if you fuck up you die. If the ramp was at 60% rather than 40% and Lee Sin got pegged by an Ashe arrow (for argument) from max stun range he's eating about 3 extra turret shots, at 60% ramp those shots deal an extra 122 raw damage at minute 0, that's quite often going to be the difference between him living and dying.

If the increased damage did make it too hard for tanks to actually tank a turret (which I think is somewhat too easy right now) then you could look at toning down the 30% armour pen that turrets have innately.

ExhibitD1 votes

https://youtu.be/xZZuKtgDjrw

I'll just leave this here.

Slimegoon1 votes

Turrets should do % of max health, plus additional damage (maybe missing health?) for each extra shot, standard physical damage with no armor pen. I have no problem with people dumping gold into armor to tower dive, there's no need for true damage. We just need to punish those that dive without it.

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