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The fact that you nerfed Lissandra while buffing Lux' burst this patch proves how clueless you are.

Fed by Snu Snu··3 votes·581 views

Both of them are supposed to be control mages.

Lux is a long range control mage. Lissandra is a short range control mage.

Yet you decided to increase Lux' burst, but decrease Lissandra's even more, in order to decrease an already low cooldown (insignificant buff when CDR exists in the game) and increase her R slow. Insignificant buff, since a huge slow only make sense when you chase or peel. Lissandra's ultimate already peels with the stun and it can't be used for chase because you gave it a range shorter than her own auto attacks.

You removed 0.2 ap ratio from her overall burst in order to give her a stronger slow that she never needed and 0.5 seconds faster cooldown on Q after CDR itemization.

Sincerely, you have no idea what you are doing, as evidenced from the previous Lucian changes and now the Lissandra changes. You're just shooting blanks and hope it works. That's not how I consider a team to earn their pay check.

12 Comments

Hoi Im Temmo2 votes

The fact that you complained about this kind of change this patch proves how clueless you are.

Seriously. The purpose of this patch was not long term balance. It was to promote greater pick diversity. Lux is not picked (at least not much). Lissandra is. Therefore, Lisssandra was nerfed (and REALLY not that hard, come on. They even buffed her is some respects) and Lux got a SMALL buff. Yes, she will scale better into the late game. Fine. She can still get shut down.

Stop QQ'ing and insulting Riot for making decisions they feel will better the game, and offer your opinion in a polite and non inflammatory way. You don't have to agree, just calm down a defend your position rather than attacking the people who disagree with you.

Fed by Snu Snu3 votes

Lissandra was being picked AS MUCH as Lux,with Liss being 0.09 and Lux 0.06.

If you are going to white knight, at least do it with proper facts. Don't go full retard.

And I've had enough of waiting, sorry, Lissandra has been a mediocre to bad pick ever since she got nerfed 1 month after her release.

I just played her, a full rotation of 4 spells didn't burst down a 500 hp Rengar with a Large Rod. A Lux who was 60 cs behind and only had a Chalise was able to OUTTRADE me. How can you even defend that?

Hoi Im Temmo2 votes

Without know more about the game, I can't really give a comment :/ After checking, they each recieved apparently 1 pick in the LCS (please note that this patch was to promote World Championship pick diversity, that is stated in the patch notes.

That said, after checking, each was picked once in Euro-NA (ok, my bad)

Next, looking at the patch again, she had 3 changes. 2 of them were buffs.

Third, you continue to be insulting. I'm simply defending the choice, and pointing out the reasoning. There is no need to be flippant and insulting. It wont help your cause, and will make people disregard your argument.

Finally, the change to lux, while it is true she can be very strong, was needed. I can understand wanting Lissandra to be buffed, there are a few champions I feel the same way about; but lux fell off late once everyone started getting banshees and guardian angels. But that has little to do with Lissandra, other than for comparison.

To better present yourself, come forward with direct points, and only go over what about the champion needs a buff. List out how you think it should be done, and why. People will be more willing to read what you have to say, and may even agree.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

This is not reddit, you don't have to try to get karma points here.

Her buffs were always mana costs and one was a cooldown on her W, only at the first levels.

She was never buffed in terms of damage, only had her R nerfed and then directly vanished.

You think Lux was in a bad spot for falling off late game? Try falling off as soon as you pick the champion.

And I did present the fact, the compensation buffs are irrelevant and prove that Riot doesn't even understand their own game.

The Q CD buff, after CDR, results in only 0.6 less and not 1. This is 1.8 compared to 2.4. Nothing really.

Her R slow was a significant buff, but noone cares, because the slow sees close to no use anyway due to how it's used. The main target is supposed to be burst down and focused. If you use it in order to peel for your own team, you already do it ANYWAY because you lock down their strongest target and the rest already have a big enough MS deficit.

Additionally, due to how MS calculations work, buffing the R slow means that you nerf the Q slow when you use them together.

Her overall slow increase was minimal to insignificant of making a difference when we include Q.

And for that she lost even more of her already lackluster burst.

She is the Nautilus of mages now, can lock you down for a significant time, but you only laugh at her, turn around as soon as the cc ends and kill her.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Its a very good point on her damage, one I agree with. If your argument had been that from the beginning, I would have agreed.

I can understand being frustrated (as I said before) but lashing out will cause people to just ignore you and right off what you say, despite merits it may have.

Looking over Lissandra again, (I don't play mages often) I can definitely see the idea of a lack of damage. That said, I have seen a number of Lissandras snowball in game. Now, I will grant that I am a Bronze player (please dont make fun of me T_T') - but this is merely my opinion in regard to what you post.

Finally, I don't use reddit, so i have no idea what karma points are.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Every champion can snowball out of control, even Urgot, but that's not a balancing factor because:

a) In examples like Lissandra, only the jungler can affect that. You have to mess up really hard for Liss to actually kill you. Her full burst is so low that under no circumstances should she do a 1v1 kill on equal footing.

b) Following from a, this means that if a Lissandra did snowball, it's because of user error from the opponent laner. It still doesn't change how much of a better situation it would be if it was a Syndra or an Orianna in her place, with the same cs and same snowball from kills.

It's just disgusting how you need DFG to be able to even imagine doing meaningful damage, whereas if you dont build it you won't be able to get anyone below 40% after a full rotation and even another 1-2 Qs.

She also has some really big range issues, which is ok if we take as granted that it's her identity, but she doesn't get any compensation for it. She even has mana issues on top of it. And actually, the new patch made them worse, because her Q is so expensive that you will now always be low on mana.

And once again, you don't have the luxury of going RoA/Seraph's/Chalise, because then your damage will be zero. You need that DFG. And that DFG will take that place, because the other items (cap/zhonya's/void) are irreplaceable.

The only time you might find yourself having some mana is after your 6th item which can be something related to that.

So many problems and she gets a compensation nerf for her buffs, as if she would get out of line with 1 less second off Q. That infuriates me, it's ridiculous and having Riot pretend that Liss is on a good place that she needs a shift-in-power instead of straight up buffs is insulting.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

So with that in mind, how would you balance her? The low cooldowns and mana cost is intended, i think, to allow her strong and consistent poke. You pointed out the trouble with her range here, but with her q, she bully through minions fairly well, and building a Liandrys +crystal scepter can cause many problems for the opponent.

in response to riot thinking she is in a "good place," perhaps they don't? Riot may be stalling on more significant changes till after the world championship? A high amount of crowd control on one mage can be frustrating to play against as well, and as we have seen for a long time with Yorick, Riot would rather underpower champ intentionally, than buff it and wish they hadn't.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Her Q needs extra range and the ability to slow all targets, not just the main one. (did you know the split dmg didn't slow?)

The fact that she harasses through minions doesn't mean much when most champions harass from the same or even more range without minions anyway. (Syndra, Orianna, Ziggs, etc.)

All of her damage nerfs need to be reverted. ( W nerf now and R nerf 1 month after her release)*

Her R is bugged and most of the time doesn't apply slow, needs to be fixed.

R is poorly made and has less range than her auto attacks because range calculates differently for each. Yet they just slapped they same number on both and called it a day. Needs fixing.

*Her R nerf was mostly a loss of power at level 6, so her late game power will remain the same, but at least she will be able to do something.

There, she will be fine and won't be over the top. She was never over the top anyway. Riot just plain refuses to allow her to have any form of meaningful damage, despite being a mage.

Alternatively, she needs to have meaningful base mana regen, because it's ridiculous how her mana regen is terrible just because she gets 1 spell every once in a while. She practically has no passive in the end of the day, exactly because she has no base mana regen,so it evens out.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I actually was not aware of this. Definitely should slow ALL the units hit.

Fair point.

I don't recall the damage change on the Ultimate (the actual numbers), but I recall their being in question the idea that being immobilized would mean an inability to dodge the rest of any incoming punishment, plus the idea that being suppressed and slowing nearby enemies would need to be held in check. (Wasn't her q damaged lowered too?)

I'm certain riot isn't leaving the bugs intentionally O.o

Definitely agree here, but there have been a number of problems with inconsistent styles of range measurement - I think a red post mentioned it somewhere, about them trying to clean it up (Elise's change/nerf is a partial example of this)

Definitely fair. I would probably start by upping her base skill damages, see how she does, and if she still needs more, then buff the ultimate damage.

One thing I see often (again, consider my elo here if this is bad) is rushing a chalice, but then going into more damage focused items. If She had better scaling, this could solve that problem.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Separate thought: What if her passive was altered to deal additional damage to slowed champions? (similar to Talon, I suppose, but it needs to remain in line with her kit)

ShadowNinetails1 votes

Not gonna jump into that huge nest of text, but there is one thing I'll point out

She is the Nautilus of mages now, can lock you down for a significant time, but you only laugh at her, turn around as soon as the cc ends and kill her.

Is that a bad thing? I mean if I'm picking a jungler and I go for Nautilus , I'm not going to be mad when I don't do as much dmg as LeeSin . That's not my job. When I pick Braum and get outtraded 1v1 by Zyra or Annie , I don't see that as a flaw in Braum 's design, I just pick someone else against them next time. Same goes for Lissandra : If you want tons o' CC from your mid/top lane (top Liss is still a thing, right?) then she's someone you can consider. If you want to 100-0 someone in 1.5 seconds, there's Ahri Fizz Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Lux Khazix Talon Syndra Veigar and probably a few others I missed.

If you really want to have the "I have enough CC, I need more dmg" talk about a Frejord champ, Ashe players have been crying for years.

ChaozDevote1 votes

I think you're misunderstanding what Lissandra's role is right now. She's not supposed to be bursty 100 to 0 assassin champ. Seriously, how many of those types of champs you see with a slow, aoe snare AND cc ultimates? You know what she is? A lockdown champion. The fact that you downright refuse to see that only makes your arguments less valid. Her whole kit literally allows her to get on the enemy team's faces to lockdown a priority target, ulting it for good measure (or yourself if necessary; hence the slow buff in her ulty), allowing your team to completely destroy it while depleting around half its hp bar (liandry's is literally all she needs for this). While I do think her damage nerfs were unnecessary, your fascination with playing her as a lockdown assassin and refusal to adapt your kit to a slightly tankier one baffles me. About Lux's power: She's long range, poke/kiting champ easily destroyed by anyone who gets on her face with enough burst (literally EVERY assassin and some mages) or enough lockdown to allow the team to capitalize on her (oh hey, Lissandra does that). It's all a matter to adapting to thses small changes.

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