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@ Riot: You cannot treat Pyke's HP Growth like an adjustable stat!

Illabethe··3 votes·1,587 views

Riot why are you removing up to 170 HP from a champ that only caps out at 2471 HP?

This is just dumb.

There are already MANY champs who can 1 hit him. How do you expect him to even play in the True damage meta with ever lower HP?

Even against Physical/Magic damage, he can die in 1 hit when tanky. I'm not talking about 1 sec deaths. I mean 1 auto attack! That's how high penetration is.

You basically created a champ whose cooldowns come online late game, and then told that champ: No! You can't let games get to late game!

You're taking away 7% of his MAX HP!

You think a tiny bit of armor or resist is going to fix that?

And your excuse?

"Pyke has seen a lot of success opting into tank builds and mixed success with more damage builds. We're looking to encourage his more aggressive, less safe build paths by rewarding him more for building damage."

What tank builds are people building? Please enlighten me!

Every single Pyke I've seen playing has been building these items:

item 3153 item 3812 item 1412 item 3156 item 3033 item 3071 item 3095 item 3074 item 3142 item 3026

Tell me. How are these TANK items?

Occasionally a build will have a item 3075 , but that's because he can't exist without it vs most sustain champs, and good luck surviving most champs by going item 3123 /item 3033 instead. It's a must vs Warwick Tryndamere Trundle Aatrox Darius for example.

But that's It.....

He's not building tank. He's building Tank Runes! And that's because he can't exist on non tank runes. He needs that Aftershock Armor burst. He needs that Bone Plating. He needs the other resolve runes. If he doesn't have them, he's a dead guy before he can even skill...

He's what? 47% now? He's going to be lucky to be 45% after this.

16 Comments

Bern2 votes

Successful pyke players were building banner (before it was removed), GA, hexdrinker, etc.

Realistically, damage without mr/ar sucks ass on Pyke and so does lethality. He's still a support. He won't get a lot of gold to buy big ticket damage and he won't have the levels to make his lethality scale. (If you're executing with your ult, it just autokills them, too, so lethality is useless on your ult.) Meanwhile, his passive means he gets a lot of value from resists because he can heal up midfight and gain a lot of HP again (so it's like he has more max HP as long as he isn't immediately burst down), and if he doesn't die instantly -- which he probably won't with resists -- he can live long enough to execute people and CC people, and the execute, gold share, and CC are why Pyke is worth picking at all.

tl;dr: he's a support and his job is still to be a support, so building him damage/lethality is pretending you're zed when you're actually thresh with an execute

DOUBLE EDIT because I'm stupid: Also, convergence is batshit on Pyke because he's RIGHT UP IN THERE etc.

Illabethe1 votes

I'm going to ignore you because of the banner comment. Everyone was building it. Not just Pyke. Even adcs and mages were building it. 4 man Banners.

He cannot get out of a fight once he's in it unless it's a duel.

Bern2 votes

"Everyone was building it" =/= it wasn't successful on Pyke.

And that doesn't invalidate the rest of the comment or the attached logic. Building pure damage on Pyke just wasn't good unless you were so ahead you could've built almost anything.

Illabethe1 votes

The ult does NOT auto kill. It has an extremely high miss ratio, and there are 10 ways you counter it. You can even disrupt it mid cast. You can put it on cooldown without it even acting! And it's easy to do...... A simple heal 100% negates it. A Grasp of the Undying Negates.... there are so many ways to prevent it from working it's not even funny.

It's not like Darius's ult where you can't stop it. If it's a 10% champ vs a 10% Pyke and the 10% champ has killing damage... It won't be a 1 for 1 trade. Pyke's skill doesn't finish.

And I'm telling you he DOES die instantly.

There are a ton of champs who literally 1 hit him:

Annie Camille Fiora Jhin Jax Irelia Kaisa Kayn Katarina Kayle MasterYi Tryndamere MonkeyKing All can actually 1 shot, and that's not including those who use multiple skills to do it.

I've had 183 Armor vs MonkeyKing and Tryndamere and been 1 shot on both. The Tryn actually literally just auto attacked once. No spin. Just an auto attack while I was Eing him.

Try it sometime with a friend. These two champs have no counter build on Pyke.

I do not know a single successful Pyke who isn't building AD items btw.

Bern1 votes

It autokills as in it will kill you if it hits and you are below a certain HP threshold, no questions asked. This means lethality doesn't afect his ult if you are trying to execute with it (you are, of course) and flat AD is better because it actually raises the execute threshold. That is the only point I tried to make.

This is Diamond+ 7 day item winrates on lolalytics for support Pyke: https://i.imgur.com/dxGUGC3.png

You'll notice that GA is the highest winrate item that's commonly picked, and tankier items are generally more effective than damage items on Pyke. This is just how Pyke is. If you don't know any successful Pykes building tank, you haven't been looking.

If you're getting oneshot in a even game you're misplaying; not anything else I can tell you. If you're behind, surprise, Pyke is a support and typically has low HP because he's a support and doesn't even get HP from Remnant.

Illabethe1 votes

GA and Maw are not tank items. When you say tank items you're talking about item 3742 item 3065 item 3075

Flat AD is fine but item 3147 is one of those items, and it puts them closer to that execute threshold faster.

If you want a 500 AD build or so, You are not tanky.

If you even want 350-400 AD, you are not tanky.

You do not have a SINGLE game on Pyke. You have no clue what you're talking about when you say misplaying. 40 Armor items or even 100 Armor items don't stop 1 shot auto attacks from Crits, especially on champs who are running Conquerer, and get stronger as their HP falls.

You also don't know what you're talking about on his ult.

It does NOT auto kill. His ult takes about 1 second to execute, which gives champs ample time to do all of the following:

Stasis. Heal. Disrupt it with Silence Disrupt it with a root. Dash out of it. Sidestep an arm of the cross. Kill Pyke mid skill, which prevents it from completing. Stun him, which prevents it from completing. Knock him Back, which prevents it from completing. Airborn him, which prevents it from completing. Disarm him, which prevents it from completing. Use a Clone, which wastes the skill and puts it on cooldown.

And this happens often as heck.

The only R's that generally complete are the ones that are done from almost max range away, where the opponent has less of a chance to do the things above.

But even then you contend with heals/stasis/invuln/dash/sidestepping.

Aatrox Tryndamere Kayle Kindred all have get out of jail card they can cast mid Pyke ult and do so. And Tryn at that HP (low HP) hits over 2500 on Champion, with True damage. Kayle does so much damage that it might as well be a 1 hit.

I'm also not speaking about Pyke support, which is even weaker. I'm talking about Jungle. I'm generally the highest level on my teams. So I am not level gated like support and have more complete builds. I know what 2471 HP feels like, because I actually reach it.

You cannot build tanky enough not to get 1 shot on Pyke. You can on every other champ in the game. I can build a 4500 HP Nami for Pete's sake.

Toppien1 votes

pyke shouldnt exist IMO worst design ever

Xurreal1 votes

They are adjustable stats.

170 HP is roughly about 455ish gold (give or take a few) in value, but Pyke is already making up for that deficit with his passive and item effects such as Lifesteal and Relic Shield charges. He's very squishy early game, but he can still 1v1 most champions he's supposed to.

Let's not forget that this badass has the potential to generate gold for every individual per kill up to a pentakill per 1 full rotation of cooldowns.

That's a lot of darn gold to generate from 1 ability.

Illabethe1 votes

You don't understand. He's not going to be able to use any of his kit but Q, because if he goes in, he's going to die before he accomplishes anything at all. If he E's into someone, many of them are going to kill him before the stun even activates.

And when do you get to use life steal on Pyke? Life steal is when you build him jungle for mobs. It doesn't help much at all in fights.

Malix Farwin1 votes

His max HP means nothing really when assasins are squishy anyways and his passive heals him by quite a modest amount. In that regard he has more effective HP then most(if not all) assassins, definitely more durable then most supports in lane. You are severely undervaluing his passive.

Illabethe1 votes

His passive doesn't even get a chance to act if he dies Mid Q. Which happens often.

a 2300 HP cap is a death sentence when you can't item out of it!

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

His passive doesn't even get a chance to act if he dies Mid Q. Which happens often.

a 2300 HP cap is a death sentence when you can't item out of it!

What assassins do you know build HP outside of maybe Fizz who builds item 3152 which if given the option would love to convert the HP of that to AP.

If anything his passive is amazing because it makes defensive items that give armor/mr into offensive ones as well.

Final point, Assassins do not build very much HP pretty much item 3071 and item 3152 are the most you will see. Him losing out on that HP is traded by gained more offensive options(due to buying stuff like with hp and armor/mr) and the passive out of combat regen he has(which is pretty insane).

IcyPepper1 votes

I mean they did provide context for it, and they did have a point.

Less overall HP will make Pyke's effective HP less with the same builds, and I think the raised base armor/MR is supposed to ensure that assassin-build Pyke's aren't squishier during the laning phase than they are now.

Illabethe1 votes

Have you ever played him? He gains no HP from items. At all. He gains AD. In other words, his base HP Is all he gets. All. he. gets. The armor/resist increase is so minimal it's going to get erased by the entire champ roster's penetration. It does nothing to make up for 170 lost HP on a champ who can't gain any.

IcyPepper1 votes

Have you ever played him? He gains no HP from items. At all. He gains AD. In other words, his base HP Is all he gets. All. he. gets.

Yeah, and?

Effective HP is the effective amount of damage you can take from particular sources based on the math between your actual HP and your defenses. Since he can't build HP, like you've said (and assumed I did not know for some reason?), his tank builds are going to be slightly less effective in addition to making him a little more vulnerable to true damage.

As an assassin, you should be doing your best to not take that much damage in the first place, so assassin Pyke players are going to deal a little more damage in exchange for being slightly more vulnerable to true damage while being relatively the same tankiness against normal damage types.

It's not that big of a deal, dude.

Illabethe1 votes

He's never HAD tank builds. They don't work! You don't get enough Gold as support and you can't farm fast enough as jungler. And we're in a true damage meta! The difference is Nil!

You don't understand how Pyke's kit works if you say not to take damage lol.

If he E's there is a 1 second delay before the stun. He can die in that 1 second.

If he R's there are about 10 ways to counter it and he can actually die before it hits, preventing it from hitting at all.

W cannot be used in close proximity of other champions. You die before you get even halfway out of vision.

His HP scaling was the only thing saving him from death 90% of the time (he might get out with 50 HP)

The only part of his kit that doesn't always get him killed is his Q. Which only sometimes gets him killed.

I average about 30-40k Damage taken a game, and some 19-20k heals. That is how Pyke plays. He cannot avoid taking damage and actually have a kit. That's why that passive is there. He has no sustain, no actual heals, and no tank items actually work on him or are valuable for the price because on any tank item, the HP > AD conversion sucks.

And if you look at my games, I generally usually die less than 3 times a game. 40k damage taken. Die 3 times....

He is not an assassin that avoids getting hit..... He's not even really an assassin. He's a catcher with cleanup that works about 30% of the time. Even if he builds lethality..... he's more of a fighter, because getting someone to an execute actually is a prolonged fight. You usually have to dance and use skill rotations a couple times to get a kill, because the first engage you almost die.

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