Sejuani Aftermath, Cinderhulk's Fall, Devourer's Rise, 'Double Nerfing'

RocketRelm·Aug 11, 2015·86 votes·12,167 views

We all know that Sejuani was obnoxious when Cinderhulk was at it's peak, being the champion that synergized with the item the strongest. Sejuani surged on a lot of popularity and power, but as the hype surrounding Cinderhulk faded and Devourer rises up, everyone stopped playing Sejuani almost entirely. I don't think I've seen a single Sejuani except when I've played her since patch 5.11. She was nerfed after the Cinderhulk was placed in a more reasonable spot, before people switched over and partly on the back of imagined extra strength.

Despite being nerfed down herself solely because of Cinderhulk, Sejauni hasn't received any compensation. Further, because of her classification as a Trample Tank who wants to dive the enemies, rather than a Support Tank, she isn't being compensated for the armor changes which directly hurt her itemization.

Can we expect Sejuani to see any compensation for the 'layered nerfs'? Do we think she is in a healthy state at the current moment?

114 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 11, 201555 votes

Can we expect Sejuani to see any compensation for the 'layered nerfs'? Do we think she is in a healthy state at the current moment?

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

Jeddy017Aug 11, 201510 votes

since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

Yeah because when a meta that they actually fit with comes along,they will be stronger than they need to be.

manbearswineAug 11, 201531 votes

{quoted}

Yeah because when a meta that they actually fit with comes along,they will be stronger than they need to be.

If that meta ever comes along.

Face it,tanks have been strong for what? 3-4 months? now assassins being shoved down our throats again. See you in 3 years sejuani.

NvrGivUpAug 11, 20155 votes

I just think that Sated Devourer is a really, really strong and a little bit overpowered. Kayle and Shyvana are obnoxious. Tanks aren't godlike right now, but I think they wouldn't be as weak if the Devourer stuff isn't as dominating as it is in it's current state. -just an opinion; I might be wrong. Don't kill me.

manbearswineAug 11, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I just think that Sated Devourer is a really, really strong and a little bit overpowered. Kayle and Shyvana are obnoxious. Tanks aren't godlike right now, but I think they wouldn't be as weak if the Devourer stuff isn't as dominating as it is in it's current state. -just an opinion; I might be wrong. Don't kill me.

If you look at it you'd notice that it's not just devourer junglers being strong,they are followed by carry junglers,tanky junglers are already doing poorly even compared to their non devourer counterparts,and that is even on winrate(something tank junglers generally beat carry ones when balanced,as they are easier to play),so honestly I think it's unlikely they will even be good if devourer was nerfed(does it even have nerfs on pbe?).

Then you take into account the armor nerfs which will easily hit tanks the hardest,where do you think that will place them? This is classic riot balance,shove carry junglers and assassins into the meta,then say tanks/squishy mages aren't supposed to be strong in that meta,too bad it's the meta 90% of the time.

Silents429Aug 11, 20152 votes

This isn't an upcoming assassin meta? If it was tanks would still be favorited, we moving to sated junglers.

manbearswineAug 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This isn't an upcoming assassin meta? If it was tanks would still be favorited,

What you mean unlike the 10 prior assassin metas where tanks were shit?

we moving to sated junglers.

Carry junglers like eve elise reksai(and lee in competitive) are still doing well,tanks are just dead again,and will be even more so with the armor nerfs.

You need to understand that assassins are riot's buttbuddies,unlike everyone else they balance them around their counters.

Silents429Aug 11, 20154 votes

Tanks weren't shit during the assassin meta. And now we have more tools as tanks for dealing with situations then previously.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tanks weren't shit during the assassin meta. And now we have more tools as tanks for dealing with situations then previously.

Tanky were very much shit before cinderhulk,aside from some occasional overbuffed guy in top lane(like maokai).

Silents429Aug 12, 20151 votes

No they weren't we just had less viable tanks then we do now.

Any of them became fine after the first jungle clear, the problem a lot of them had was if they got behind at all it was near impossible to catch up. Cinderhulk fixed those problems.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No they weren't we just had less viable tanks then we do now. Any of them became fine after the first jungle clear, the problem a lot of them had was if they got behind at all it was near impossible to catch up. Cinderhulk fixed those problems.

No,we had no viable tank junglers,maybe amumu in solo q,that's it.

and there problems where much deeper than going behind in the first clear,there was just no reason to pick her,cinderhulk gave a reason,and then was nerfed.

Silents429Aug 12, 20151 votes

Are you talking about Sejuani ?

Because a lot more happened to her besides the Cinderhulk, she got a swing of buffs before the Cinderhulk came out making her viable again, because everyone was worried the Cinderhulk would get her nerfed like it did.

She still works fine too.

Otherwise Pre Cinderhulk, as I said, Jungler Tanks could clear, they were just at massive risk from the enemy constantly, and if they got behind they stayed behind. Cinderhulk + The sweep of Tank buffs we got put them into a tank meta, and tanks are still fine.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Are you talking about ?

No,aside from gragas(who was ridiculous before) they are all done.

Because a lot more happened to her besides the Cinderhulk, she got a swing of buffs before the Cinderhulk came out making her viable again, because everyone was worried the Cinderhulk would get her nerfed like it did.

She still works fine too.

Really doesn't.

Otherwise Pre Cinderhulk, as I said, Jungler Tanks could clear, they were just at massive risk from the enemy constantly, and if they got behind they stayed behind.

And what makes you think that changed?

Cinderhulk + The sweep of Tank buffs we got put them into a tank meta, and tanks are still fine.

Yes,that's why basically nobody plays them anymore,clearly they are doing great.

God,why do people think that calling shit champions good boosts their epeen,can someone explain to me the logic behind that?

Silents429Aug 12, 20151 votes

I think at this point you are dead set on tank junglers no longer being a thing for reasons that make no sense. An Assassin meta is going to stop them?

Yes,that's why basically nobody plays them anymore,clearly they are doing great.

God,why do people think that calling shit champions good boosts their epeen,can someone explain to me the logic behind that?

Why do people call good champions shit based on if they are popular? A good portion of Season 5 was a tank meta, it's being shifted out as expected, like every other meta, it will come back to a tank meta again like it always does.

And I base these changes off of not only me memory, but the fact I main jungle tanks.

And between both of us I seem to be the one who actually knows why tanks got stronger, They nerfed all the jungle monster damage, buffed the gromp, buffed tank junglers, and added a cinderhulk, but all everyone remembers is the cinderhulk part which is why everyone thinks tanks are dead now because Cinderhulk is getting nerfed.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think at this point you are dead set on tank junglers no longer being a thing for reasons that make no sense. An Assassin meta is going to stop them?

Okay how about you go to champion.gg and tell me who the most popular junglers are. here's a link to save you some effort: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Why do people call good champions shit based on if they are popular?

Because apparently people can tell the strength of champions.

A good portion of Season 5 was a tank meta, it's being shifted out as expected, like every other meta, it will come back to a tank meta again like it always does.

Not really,carry jungler meta and assassin meta are riots favorites,and keep getting intentionally pushed,otherwise I would have been fine with it.

And I base these changes off of not only me memory, but the fact I main jungle tanks.

Which would've been a great argument if you weren't in bronze(to be clear maining a role gives you a good understanding and makes your word weigh more,just not as much as the skill gap between us makes it weigh less).

And between both of us I seem to be the one who actually knows why tanks got stronger, They nerfed all the jungle monster damage, buffed the gromp, buffed tank junglers, and added a cinderhulk, but all everyone remembers is the cinderhulk part which is why everyone thinks tanks are dead now because Cinderhulk is getting nerfed.

I think tank junglers are dead because they are already not good,not because cinderhulk is getting nerfed. Their previous issues were a shitty clear and being constantly under the shadow of the opposing jungler,any meeting with him would turn out not in your favor,which also limited your options quite a lot,while you didn't even outscale him too much,definitely not enough to justify losing all the early pressure he has,cinderhulk helped a lot as it both increased your clear,gank pressure(you brought damage in ganks),and made you less vulnerable to the opposing jungler while also making you outscale him harder.

Silents429Aug 12, 20151 votes

Your judging it based on playrate not whether or not they are good. You are basing the entirety of your information off of popularity, when it holds no merits, obviously Jungle Tanks are being played we are changing metas, and further changing them by reworking the AP and AD itemizations and some champions in such a short time frame.

Popularity =/= Champion Health

Which would've been a great argument if you weren't in bronze(to be clear maining a role gives you a good understanding and makes your word weigh more,just not as much as the skill gap between us makes it weigh less).

Oh my god you are actually going to be one of those people.

Spizzle9000Aug 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If that meta ever comes along.

Face it,tanks have been strong for what? 3-4 months? now assassins being shoved down our throats again. See you in 3 years sejuani.

What assassins being shoved down our throats?

Zed's getting a fairly small buff, LeBlanc is getting a buff (although I'm not sure how large of one). Are there other assassin buffs I'm unaware of?

And, the item 3930 meta seems to favor bruisers, not assassins.

manbearswineAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What assassins being shoved down our throats?

Zed's getting a fairly small buff, LeBlanc is getting a buff (although I'm not sure how large of one). Are there other assassin buffs I'm unaware of?

Kassadin. Look,it's not just that,how many assassins are weak now to begin with? Rengar is being retarded,ahri is ridiculous,yasuo is very strong,riven(open for debate whereas she's an assassin or not) is dominating,so does vayne(once again,arguable).

And then you also remember that armor is getting nerfed.

And, the meta seems to favor bruisers, not assassins.

It doesn't,these guys melt faces fast,so naturally you would want someone to melt their face first...someone with a lot of burst... It's true that some of these guys are bruisers,but you don't expect too many assassins in the jungle,assassins are generally mid lane.

Honestly,with that and the lee buffs,I think it's awfully obvious that they are just setting up worlds to be full of flashy #lcsbigplays made by assassins(and lee/thresh/etc).

Spizzle9000Aug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin. Look,it's not just that,how many assassins are weak now to begin with? Rengar is being retarded,ahri is ridiculous,yasuo is very strong,riven(open for debate whereas she's an assassin or not) is dominating,so does vayne(once again,arguable).

And then you also remember that armor is getting nerfed.

It doesn't,these guys melt faces fast,so naturally you would want someone to melt their face first...someone with a lot of burst... It's true that some of these guys are bruisers,but you don't expect too many assassins in the jungle,assassins are generally mid lane.

Honestly,with that and the lee buffs,I think it's awfully obvious that they are just setting up worlds to be full of flashy #lcsbigplays made by assassins(and lee/thresh/etc).

Kassadin needed a buff. I haven't even seen him used since URF. Rengar does a lot of damage, but he's a glass cannon.

Ahri is fairly strong, I suppose, but she's more of a burst mage than anything.

Yasuo is strong, but he is also fairly squishy, easily countered, and extremely difficult to play well.

Riven has always been too strong and mobile.

Vayne is quite OP.

I imagine the armor nerfs are for the fighter rework? I dunno.

Assassins are kept strong because watching a bunch of tanks perma-stun each other is fucking boring. That was the tank meta. The devourer meta is almost as bad; just watching Xin Zhao's e onto you and kill you in 2 seconds (even though Xin Zhao is generally built as a bruiser). The devourer enchantment could use a nerf, I agree.

And, as I said earlier, who would want to watch LCS if it's just a bunch of tanks stunning each other and never dying? That's boringgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin needed a buff. I haven't even seen him used since URF.

No,he doesn't,he already sees competitive play as is,just because people refuse to understand that an antimage is supposed to be a counterpick doesn't make him underpowered.

Rengar does a lot of damage, but he's a glass cannon.

Yeah,yeah,it's ok to be a completely retarded joke of a champion because you are squishy. I wish they gave vayne 700 range in ult.

Ahri is fairly strong, I suppose, but she's more of a burst mage than anything.

The difference between a burst mage and an assassin comes down to mobility. Ahri is hyper mobile,so definitely much more of an assassin than a burst mage.

Yasuo is strong, but he is also fairly squishy, easily countered, and extremely difficult to play well.

He counters as easily as he is countered,so that's far from a justification,and being hard to play doesn't entitle anyone to free elo.

Riven has always been too strong and mobile.

Yes,that is a trend with assassins,it's not like zed is weak right now,the moment assassins fall off slightly riot buffs them,and riven isn't very different on that regard.

Vayne is quite OP.

Seriously? she is the least stupid of this bunch by far.

I imagine the armor nerfs are for the fighter rework? I dunno.

a major point of the OP is "why doesn't sejuani get's the same armor compensation supports do",sejuani is no fighter.

Assassins are kept strong because watching a bunch of tanks perma-stun each other is fucking boring.

"MY OPINION IS THE ONLY OPINION" Oh right,I forgot about that. Assassin meta is fucking cancer,having to pick a bunch of point clickers to deal with their retarded mobility is obnoxious and turns the game into a game of reflex,and what tanks exactly perma stun each other? strongest tanks in the cinderhulk meta were nunu(no stun),gragas(mini knockback on his dash) and sejuani(stun on a large cd ult,mini knockback on dash),where exactly is the permastun here?

That was the tank meta. The devourer meta is almost as bad; just watching Xin Zhao's e onto you and kill you in 2 seconds (even though Xin Zhao is generally built as a bruiser). The devourer enchantment could use a nerf, I agree.

At least xin has limited mobility.

And, as I said earlier, who would want to watch LCS if it's just a bunch of tanks stunning each other and never dying? That's boringgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg.

Having a bunch of assassins facerolling everything? that's fucking laaaaaaaameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Spizzle9000Aug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No,he doesn't,he already sees competitive play as is,just because people refuse to understand that an antimage is supposed to be a counterpick doesn't make him underpowered.

Yeah,yeah,it's ok to be a completely retarded joke of a champion because you are squishy. I wish they gave vayne 700 range in ult.

The difference between a burst mage and an assassin comes down to mobility. Ahri is hyper mobile,so definitely much more of an assassin than a burst mage.

He counters as easily as he is countered,so that's far from a justification,and being hard to play doesn't entitle anyone to free elo.

Yes,that is a trend with assassins,it's not like zed is weak right now,the moment assassins fall off slightly riot buffs them,and riven isn't very different on that regard.

Seriously? she is the least stupid of this bunch by far.

a major point of the OP is "why doesn't sejuani get's the same armor compensation supports do",sejuani is no fighter.

"MY OPINION IS THE ONLY OPINION" Oh right,I forgot about that. Assassin meta is fucking cancer,having to pick a bunch of point clickers to deal with their retarded mobility is obnoxious and turns the game into a game of reflex,and what tanks exactly perma stun each other? strongest tanks in the cinderhulk meta were nunu(no stun),gragas(mini knockback on his dash) and sejuani(stun on a large cd ult,mini knockback on dash),where exactly is the permastun here?

At least xin has limited mobility.

Having a bunch of assassins facerolling everything? that's fucking laaaaaaaameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Well, I dunno. I guess they do want him for LCS big plays.

Rengar. He's not the most mobile assassin out there. While he has some of the most burst, he's more vulnerable to cc than others. Tired of him ulting you? Buy a damn pink. At least Rengar doesn't have a short cd on a dash that lets him dodge every attempt to lock him down with cc.

True; her q does grant a bit much in mobility.

Yasuo is hard to play. That's kinda the opposite of free elo. Free elo is playing a champion that's completely OP and easy to use. Yasuo is high risk, and high reward.

Zed isn't weak, but it's not like this buff will make him totally OP and have zero counterplay. Did I mention there's this thing called a QSS, Zhonya's, armor, and cc? With the delay on his ult being reduced to .5 seconds, there's still time to cc him. Most Zeds want to apply their burst to make sure it will kill before going to their shadow.

I don't see any of the other champions on the list doing % max health true damage and having a 6-2 second cd on something that not only makes their auto-attacks stronger, but allows them to escape any skillshots (that can also stealth her during her ult).

Well, I don't know why Sejuani is not getting armor compensation.

But, it's not just MY opinion. Not many people would watch competitive play if it's just a lot of unkillable tanks slowing, knocking each other back, knocking each other up, stunning, and snaring each other. This isn't necessarily starting assassin meta. It's just giving small buffs to some assassins (and when I say permastun, I also mean knockups and knockbacks because they also prevent you from taking any actions for a period of time.

Xin has limited mobility. As does Zed. His w still has a 14 second cd at max rank, and, even with cdr, that's still more than enough time to kill him or lock him down.

Zed's ult has a delay on the shadow swapping. He's one of the more mobile champions, but at least he requires effort.

Having assassins facerolling everything. That's not how assassins are played in the LCS. If they simply facerolled, they would be dead before they could burst down a level 1 Master Yi. Facerolling is most easily accomplished when you're a tank. Like Sejuani back during the Cinderhulk meta. Cause you're unkillable and have cc and an escape (not all tanks have a kit like that). If you scroll down a bit, you'll see Nintendude say that he believes Cinderhulk reduces the amount of skill required to play as a jungler. A shit ton of health kinda does that. Assassins don't have piles of health so in competitive play, they cannot afford to make mistakes. Tanks can.

http://na.lolesports.com/articles/feel-burn-cinderhulk-tactics-nintendude-and-karsa

Clearly we have different opinions on cinderhulk meta and assassin meta that cannot really be changed, so, I suggest we leave the topic alone.

manbearswineAug 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well, I dunno. I guess they do want him for LCS big plays.

Rengar. He's not the most mobile assassin out there. While he has some of the most burst, he's more vulnerable to cc than others. Tired of him ulting you? Buy a damn pink.

Enough with this garbage,just stop listening to bronzies which tell you this excuse. It doesn't work. The range of the warning is too short,there isn't time to react,by the time you drop the pink ward you're already dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGDFOeuVlM

Look at it,mark appears,0.25 seconds after you are dead,dropping a pink ward,reacting to his position,using cc,you will be dead first.

At least Rengar doesn't have a short cd on a dash that lets him dodge every attempt to lock him down with cc.

It really doesn't matter if you're already dead.

Yasuo is hard to play. That's kinda the opposite of free elo. Free elo is playing a champion that's completely OP and easy to use. Yasuo is high risk, and high reward.

No,he's not,yasuo is hard to play MECHANICALLY,his decision making is binary for the most part,he is still free elo,you just need to commit to learning him MECHANICALLY,you can still have shit decision making and positioning,it won't matter.

Zed isn't weak, but it's not like this buff will make him totally OP and have zero counterplay.

It doesn't change the fact there are about 100 champions who deserve a buff way more than he does. The issue is that riot is playing favorites with assassins and shoving them down our throats,not how large the buffs are or whether or not they are deserved.

Did I mention there's this thing called a QSS, Zhonya's, armor, and cc? With the delay on his ult being reduced to .5 seconds, there's still time to cc him. Most Zeds want to apply their burst to make sure it will kill before going to their shadow.

Did I mention there's splitpushing and the need to build items which will help you against things which aren't zed? Everyone stack armor...why is vlad 20/0?

I don't see any of the other champions on the list doing % max health true damage and having a 6-2 second cd on something that not only makes their auto-attacks stronger, but allows them to escape any skillshots (that can also stealth her during her ult).

So what? kog shreds hp faster,from a larger range,and at least her dash has a 2 sec cd,I can't say the same about kalita or yasuo,she also actually has drawbacks,her kit is entirely low ranged and she offers no poke or waveclear for her team.

Well, I don't know why Sejuani is not getting armor compensation.

Cause #lcsbigplays

But, it's not just MY opinion. Not many people would watch competitive play if it's just a lot of unkillable tanks slowing, knocking each other back, knocking each other up, stunning, and snaring each other. This isn't necessarily starting assassin meta. It's just giving small buffs to some assassins (and when I say permastun, I also mean knockups and knockbacks because they also prevent you from taking any actions for a period of time.

And I stopped watching it because I find the lack of counterplay of assassins and idiotic shit like lantern ganks disgusting,you see an "outplay",I want to throw up.

Xin has limited mobility. As does Zed. His w still has a 14 second cd at max rank, and, even with cdr, that's still more than enough time to kill him or lock him down.

Too bad zed also has his ult,which is actually a double dash,oh,and builds botrk as core...often followed with yomumus.

Zed's ult has a delay on the shadow swapping. He's one of the more mobile champions, but at least he requires effort.

Oh boy a 1 second(soon to be 0.5) window to do something to him...as long as his w is down ofc,and with the speedboost from botrk...yeah,lots of room here.

Having assassins facerolling everything. That's not how assassins are played in the LCS. If they simply facerolled, they would be dead before they could burst down a level 1 Master Yi.

Except that they do that all the time,roaming with assassin doesn't take much skill,if your opponent doesn't see you 2 miles away,they will get facerolled to death.

Facerolling is most easily accomplished when you're a tank. Like Sejuani back during the Cinderhulk meta. Cause you're unkillable and have cc and an escape (not all tanks have a kit like that). If you scroll down a bit, you'll see Nintendude say that he believes Cinderhulk reduces the amount of skill required to play as a jungler. A shit ton of health kinda does that. Assassins don't have piles of health so in competitive play, they cannot afford to make mistakes. Tanks can. http://na.lolesports.com/articles/feel-burn-cinderhulk-tactics-nintendude-and-karsa

Oh please,assassins can afford 50 mistakes,they don't have the health,they have mobility,that's even better. But that's not it,if you actually read what he says,it's not that they are easier to play because they are tankier and more forgiving(they aren't more forgiving),it's just that they have less pressure early game,so you are punished less for failing to apply said pressure(and I agree with him for that),the issue is that this immense pressure of carry junglers early game also shoves out about half of the champion pool,and I would say devourer junglers are even easier than tank junglers due to that.

Clearly we have different opinions on cinderhulk meta and assassin meta that cannot really be changed, so, I suggest we leave the topic alone.

Except that you are biased(you play a lot of assassins),and I'm not(I rarely play tanks) and am mostly a support main(who hates tank supports).

Assassins are cancer.

Spizzle9000Aug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Enough with this garbage,just stop listening to bronzies which tell you this excuse. It doesn't work. The range of the warning is too short,there isn't time to react,by the time you drop the pink ward you're already dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGDFOeuVlM

Look at it,mark appears,0.25 seconds after you are dead,dropping a pink ward,reacting to his position,using cc,you will be dead first.

It really doesn't matter if you're already dead.

No,he's not,yasuo is hard to play MECHANICALLY,his decision making is binary for the most part,he is still free elo,you just need to commit to learning him MECHANICALLY,you can still have shit decision making and positioning,it won't matter.

It doesn't change the fact there are about 100 champions who deserve a buff way more than he does. The issue is that riot is playing favorites with assassins and shoving them down our throats,not how large the buffs are or whether or not they are deserved.

Did I mention there's splitpushing and the need to build items which will help you against things which aren't zed? Everyone stack armor...why is vlad 20/0?

So what? kog shreds hp faster,from a larger range,and at least her dash has a 2 sec cd,I can't say the same about kalita or yasuo,she also actually has drawbacks,her kit is entirely low ranged and she offers no poke or waveclear for her team.

Cause #lcsbigplays

And I stopped watching it because I find the lack of counterplay of assassins and idiotic shit like lantern ganks disgusting,you see an "outplay",I want to throw up.

Too bad zed also has his ult,which is actually a double dash,oh,and builds botrk as core...often followed with yomumus.

Oh boy a 1 second(soon to be 0.5) window to do something to him...as long as his w is down ofc,and with the speedboost from botrk...yeah,lots of room here.

Except that they do that all the time,roaming with assassin doesn't take much skill,if your opponent doesn't see you 2 miles away,they will get facerolled to death.

Oh please,assassins can afford 50 mistakes,they don't have the health,they have mobility,that's even better. But that's not it,if you actually read what he says,it's not that they are easier to play because they are tankier and more forgiving(they aren't more forgiving),it's just that they have less pressure early game,so you are punished less for failing to apply said pressure(and I agree with him for that),the issue is that this immense pressure of carry junglers early game also shoves out about half of the champion pool,and I would say devourer junglers are even easier than tank junglers due to that.

Except that you are biased(you play a lot of assassins),and I'm not(I rarely play tanks) and am mostly a support main(who hates tank supports).

Assassins are cancer.

If Vlad is an assassin, then yes. And, clearly you must be biased, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time debating all of this. After all, what are assassins the bane of? Bottom lane.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If Vlad is an assassin, then yes.

No he just deals magic damage.

And, clearly you must be biased, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time debating all of this. After all, what are assassins the bane of? Bottom lane.

Bot lane,squishy mages,top lane,jungle,other assassins,you name it.

Assassins are mostly the bane of carries(other mid laners and the adc),sure they are so retarded that people hate them all around,but that's not bias.

DeusVultAug 12, 20152 votes

Aka, when Riot tries to balance "popular" champs into a meta that they are bad in just because of High ELO plays and LCS.

Then, said champ/champs continue to see play over other champs who should be better than them in that meta, the meta shifts because Riot changes jungle/items again, and the buffed champs become insane gods for a patch or too.

Like the Lee buffs that are currently on PBE in a patch that will also see major nerfs to armor items

Xela SyabAug 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

Repertoir, thank you for responding first off, I feel like either the balance team or the item team on live at riot games aren't communicating together which is why we keep getting flavor of the month metas because of item changes. Lets propose that the item balance team makes a Cinder support item that builds from item 3751 + item 3097 and now every tanky support buys the item and has push capacity and free aoe damage in teamfights. Would the live team just nerf every tank champ that uses the item, nerf the item, or just both so they can push for another meta?

RetillinAug 11, 20157 votes

It's not just that Devourer Junglers are so much better. The on-hit it procs (esp with BotRK) just destroys her. By the time she is getting tanky enough for a team fights, a Devourer Jungler will have already hit his power spike and keep climbing in power. Really the problem is (shockingly) Devourer. This is what, the 3rd or 4th attempt at such an item. And none of them have been balanced at all.

ProfirixAug 11, 20153 votes

I think her first clear is far too dangerous. I can barely complete 3 camps before I have to back and I am incapable of purchasing the first machete upgrade.

God forbid someone decides to invade you during your second or third camp. Its almost always a guaranteed first blood in their favor. She definitely needs something to increase her durability during the first couple of clears in her jungle. After she gets cinderhulk, she is still in a good spot.

Icestar1186Aug 11, 20151 votes

What path do you do? I can go Gromp>Blue>Red>Raptors>Wolves>Back without dying, but I am a bit more cautious against champs like Shaco who invade your jungle every game.

ProfirixAug 11, 20151 votes

I normally go Gromp>Blue>Red, but I couldn't kill red before getting too low. I modified my route to include scuttler after blue, and it was enough to get my machete upgrade - but the route is still too dangerous for a tank jungler. I normally use armor seals, scaling mr glyphs, hybrid pen marks, and either AS or AD quints to improve clearing speed. I might consider CDR quints since she is gated by W cooldown.

Icestar1186Aug 11, 20151 votes

I have MPen reds and scaling AP glyphs/quints. (yeah, not the best, but I only have 2 generic runepages). I also took the Bladed Armor mastery.

ProfirixAug 11, 20151 votes

I try to avoid AP runes on Sej. Most of it is wasted on her trash ratios. What are your masteries? 9/21/0?

Icestar1186Aug 11, 20151 votes

They're actually 0/30/0. Not sure that's ideal either, but there are so many good defensive masteries...

ProfirixAug 11, 20151 votes

Honestly, I don't think full defensive masteries is a bad idea. Since they moved the pen further down the offense tree, nothing really benefits Sej more than defense. Utility doesn't benefit her much either unless you really value the extra 20% duration on neutral buffs.

Icestar1186Aug 11, 20152 votes

Yeah, the extra buff duration isn't useful on most champions.

Not KatarinaAug 12, 20151 votes

Really? I'm usually able to do a full clear on Sejuani before I back for the first time. If I start on blue side taking Gromp is a bit risky, so sometimes I don't do it. Depends on my leash. Before you ask, my pathing is

Kruggs (no smite) > Red (smite) > Wolves (no smite) > Gromp (smite) > Blue (no smite) [Or skip Gromp and smite Blue if you had a bad leash]

RED SIDE: Gromp [smite] > Blue (no smite) > Wolves > Red (smite) > Kruggs

I run 4/23/3. Points in CDR on offence, and MS on utility. Most of the defence tree. Run AP/MR/Armor and sometimes AP/MR/Scaling HP

Khell DarkWolfAug 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

The incoming Cinderhulks are going to hurt.

It feels like a slap in the face not just to her but anyone that wants to try and scale into a later game mind set.

anyone trying to build beefy or tanky and is a jungler has to be able to do it cheaply and that where most of the old tank items came in.

Glacial shroud and the like being good starter items to break into their next tier items.

I would argue that the armor and mr item changes coming soon need to be tested on live without touching cinderhulk to see where the dust settles before jumping the gun on straight nerfing cinderhulk from 25% to 15% when the item changes are already going to knee jerk everything as is in the playing field.

Tank junglers fall out of favor at the moment because I see the issue being:

Players are just getting smarter at invading early and keeping you down a peg when they know your tank junglers are weakest
Junglers that typically get Devourer are decent enough in damage that they can clear well if not faster then other junglers
Speed clearing and going with anti-tank itemization early plus damage is becoming dominant in securing a victory (Ram Rod everything into players early and win)

Tank junglers and "tanky like" junglers can have a weak early game and clear which is fine, but don't take away what they want which is scale better as the game goes on I believe is one aspect of the message.

RocketRelmAug 11, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Khell DarkWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PJHonO1G,comment-id=00090005,timestamp=2015-08-11T19:14:14.354+0000)

The incoming Cinderhulks are going to hurt.

On the one hand, these aren't strictly Cinderhulk nerfs, because until you get a couple hundred bonus HP this doesn't qualify as a nerf. However, I feel like Cinderhulk is being deliberately under balled, and that a more reasonable change in this direction would be 375 HP, 20% HP, or something similar. I'm pretty sure one of Riot's "sub goals" for this Cinderhulk Change is to cut down on the Tank Scaling, so there's no getting around that part, but I don't think the tank scaling needs to be shaved 'that' much.

FemcelAug 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

You mean like what the balance team is doing with Lee Sin?

XonraAug 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

This guy needs to get a position at Riot as "How to properly respond to questions and concerns" Because I've not seen a response from this guy that I didn't go

"Well I was all riled up and ready to disagree, and now I'm just nodding and going man this guy has a great point".

Seriously great responses with good point that don't just come off as "because we wanted it that way" etc. Thank you soooooo friggin' much.

LankPantsAug 11, 20153 votes

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

It's not. Sejuani's also fell completely out of the meta in pro play where devourer is almost never seen.

She received a brutal nerf at a point where she was already falling away from play while the stronger tank jungler in Gragas was left completely untouched.

Also you seemed fine with nerfing her when the meta swung to favour her rather than changing what caused the meta to swing. (Cinderhulk) Why is this so different?

Karn BishopAug 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

Here is why i do not play her currently in list form!

Way too squishy early to justify the late game
Upcoming armor nerfs will eliminate her late game tankyness or delay it, which feeds into first point mentioned
Mumu does her job better at the moment with less risk of missing ult and better base stat stuff
Cannot defend herself vs GOOD devourer users like shyv, yi, jax and vi.
Loses her jungle to devourer junglers since points 1 and 2 make her unable to fight them thus further delaying her late game.

Seeing the overall theme here? her late game potential cannot be justified, its just too hard to reach at the moment and heck i'd probably say its about as hard to get to poppys late game as Sejs at the moment.

PapaGreg21Aug 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

If Sejuani did any less damage right now she would be healing the other team. You may as well remove her w from her kit at this point. I understand the previous AP nerf she had on her e so that she couldn't go glass cannon and burst people down but the multiple nerfs on her w from magic damage on 12% to 6% of her health just made her completely useless save for being a walking ultimate.

I think everybody understands that tanks shouldn't be doing lots of damage (though Nasus, Irelia, Volibear and a few others that build full tank seem to do just that), but they need to do SOME damage. She basically was given all the power of a support after those nerfs instead of a tanky initiator. If she was given a kit where she was primarily a peeler and was in a support role I could understand the horrible damage output but her kit asks her to be in the middle of the enemy team putting permafrost on everybody and doing sustained aoe damage.

She already has a really bad early game, long cooldowns on her good spells (q and r) and can't fall back on the overpowered cinderhulk anymore. Plus righteous glory, randuins and frozen mallet are all getting the nerf treatment which will only make her worse. Pro streamers tell their viewers not to pick her anymore and they're right. Nautilus, volibear, amumu, and gragas have all passed her by and the devourer champs have passed the forementioned tank junglers by (except for gragas.)

Do whatever research you guys need to do on her power levels but I think the nerf from 12 to 6% of health as magic damage was too harsh, especially if you are nerfing all the hp items as well. I think everybody would be happy with 8%. I don't know of any other circumstances where a champion was literally nerfed by 50% of their damage output because of an item that synergized too well with and was left that way even after that item was heavily nerfed.

TwëekAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted} However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

Isn't that all the more reason to give her some compensation? She was tuned to be in a more balanced state when the meta favored her. Now the meta does not favor her but she still has the same nerfs from when it did, leaving her even weaker than she was prior to the rise of Cinderhulk junglers.

Wouldn't pushing her to a more balanced state now and then tuning her if the tank-centric meta comes back be better than leaving her behind as a result of her previous nerfs? You guys preemptively nerfed Shyvana when devourer was released. The same thing could happen if some global tank buff was happening.

RogueWillAug 13, 20151 votes

She should be good at soaking damage, as she stands right now if her ult is on cd she can't do a thing since she can't itemize correctly anymore so she ends up squishier in comparison to other tanks at the same time her damage is really small and even most of her burst is gone so enemy just ignore you since you posses no real threat besides your ult....

GundayMondayAug 13, 20151 votes

She needs some extra armor early. item 3110 is a core item on her (usually build it second for the cdr, 100 armor, mana, and aura. That's getting nerfed next patch. She already gets beat up in the jungle early game even building straight tank with something like 5-25 masteries. A little extra armor would be nice. Maybe on her passive? Always feels like it doesn't do anything noticeable.

KilljoyXAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To this, I would ask if you think she's able to reliably perform her intended function(s) at the moment. If there's something she's supposed to be good at but just isn't, that's probably worth addressing. If there's something she needs to not be so bad at in order to have a fighting chance, that could also be worth addressing.

However, if it's just that the Devourer-dominated solo queue meta doesn't favor her at the moment, that's probably less a reason to adjust her, since we can sometimes get into trouble for buffing champions into a meta they don't really fit in with.

She is currently nearly straight up worse than amumu. Wherever you would pick her amumu does the same thing but with better bases, scaling, and defensive abilities.

She's not even passable any more and will only be getting much worse next patch. There are a lot of things you could do to make her better but there are really just 2 things which she really really needs to differentiate herself from other team fight junglers.

She needs lower CD's. Her abilities are on somewhat long CDs. You could make it so she gets a small refund if she hits anyone with an ability. Alternatively you could improve the CD scaling on her abilities. Specifically her ultimate. 100 Second CD on her ult post FH nerf means she will only have her ult half the time. Buffing it to 120/100/80 Seconds would go a long way to making her better. Improving her other CD's by 1-2 seconds would also go a long way to make up for the loss of FH.
Partial Revert the W nerfs. It was obnoxious with the Cinderhulk item but even a full revert of these wouldn't make her oppressive again. No reason to keep her down after the nerfs to what made her dominant. I mean you wouldn't gut fizz right at the same time as removing DFG would you?

Calibretto9Aug 11, 201511 votes

Sej is fine and does not need buffs. She's strong, effective in her role and still a powerful pick with Cinderhulk. Sated Devourer being overtuned doesn't require buffs to non-devourer using junglers.

KarKzzAug 12, 20153 votes

The problem is that they want cinderhulk to be mid game , and devourer late. BUT the devourer is better mid game than the cinderhulk. Devourer jungle are generaly godlike at 20 minutes (devourer + botrk + their inate strenghts.)