Really, what are ranged champions giving up by being ranged?

WoonStruck·May 11, 2016·24 votes·1,853 views

Now, before you downvote me, please take the time to look at these values and give your opinion:

Renekton starts with a base gold value of 9085.1872, growing by 532.54 per level.

Lucian starts with a base gold value of 9284.295, growing by 520.55 per level.

Calculations were made by simply taking the gold value of each stat, and multiplying it by the champions' base for that stat, then totaling.

Base attack speed is not yet factored in, as I do not know what would most accurately reflect it. Maybe base AD x base attack speed x 100 could be a good stand-in value? Give me your suggestions.

Range is also not yet factored in, as we have no accurate way to gauge its gold value at the moment. Keep in mind though, Lucian has 4x as much range.

If this doesn't say anything about range being an undervalued stat in champions' power budgets, it at least says Lucian's base stats are way too high.

I'll calculate for other champions as well, if other people want. Pretty confident the same conclusions will be met.

Edit: Keep in mind that this thread is for discussion, not proving a point in order to get Riot to gut range or anything.

100 Comments

SonaTitsAndAssMay 11, 20164 votes

generaly its scaling tankiness the idea is generally ranged are safer until it comes to melee then they should be dead

Critmaster GarenMay 11, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P90T6U0l,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-11T22:39:34.984+0000)

generaly its scaling tankiness the idea is generally ranged are safer until it comes to melee then they should be dead

but this often doesnt work. certin ranged champs can jsut get enough lifesteal together to facetank melees.

Graves being absolute cancerous bcause of this.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 11, 20163 votes

the key word in my sentence was "GENERALLY" here is a definition: generally ˈdʒɛn(ə)rəli/Submit adverb 1. in most cases; usually.

R31W1NGMay 12, 20162 votes

See you give us the definition, but you didn't actually use it correctly in the first place. The champs where what you said as the general case are Ashe, Caitlyn, Draven, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Urgot, and Varus. Every other Marksman doesn't really care about melee without disabling their AA. Your general case is 7 out of 21. The rest are quite happy just lifestealing or melting you(except graves, he out-tanks the tanks). Marksman are more nukable... Oh wait, riot lowered the nuker's nuke potential across the board.

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 20162 votes

just that all the marksmen you listed can facetank most melees just as well later on, especially draven.

AlwaysByMySideMay 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P90T6U0l,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-11T22:42:18.252+0000)

but this often doesnt work. certin ranged champs can jsut get enough lifesteal together to facetank melees.

being absolute cancerous bcause of this.

Graves can't face tank a Tryndamere, Darius, Yi, Jax, or Trundle unless he's ahead.

He's not a particularly good duelist as the game goes on, though he is very powerful early game.

Chaotic ReksMay 12, 20162 votes

Graves can't face tank a Tryndamere, Darius, Yi, Jax, or Trundle unless he's ahead.

can anyone else really either?

PartholonianMay 12, 20162 votes

Nobody ranged can, that's kind of the point. All the best duelists are melee, because ranged really do give up stats for being ranged and that hurts them when there's nobody to hide behind while using your range to still deal damage.

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20162 votes

Vayne destroys Trynd 1v1 assuming optimal play. Bronze vaynes that facetank 5 crits in a row aren't the balance point.

In fact she also destroys Yi, Darius, Jax and Darius.

Icestar1186May 12, 20162 votes

An ideal case lategame Vayne destroys everything. The counter to Vayne is to prevent her from having that ideal case. CC her, disengage/reengage, burst her down, anything to keep her from getting that ideal fight.

Frankly, however, "optimal play" is a misleading term. It means you won. If you didn't win, it wasn't optimal.

BluePolarizerMay 13, 20161 votes

For the case of Nasus vs. Vayne, for instance, it doesn't even matter what you do as long as the Vayne isn't AFK. You just won't be able to win that fight.

Icestar1186May 14, 20161 votes

Yes, in a vacuum. But what if, for example, a teammate stuns her?

BluePolarizerMay 14, 20161 votes

QSS and walk away.

Icestar1186May 14, 20161 votes

Still, people's reaction times are only so fast. And in a teamfight, it is entirely possible for there to be multiple CC abilities used, lots of AOE damage from the midlaners, etc. There are more variables than just Vayne and Nasus.

BluePolarizerMay 14, 20161 votes

sure but the topic was duelists.

A late game Vayne literally vaporizes most melees. I believe the only 2 melees that can destroy her are Talon with item 3074 item 3142 item 3078 item 3047 item 3147 item 3031 or she's isolated with a Khazix item 3812 item 1412 .

Icestar1186May 14, 20161 votes

Whether or not she vaporizes people wan never the question. I was just explaining that she is intended to vaporize you 1v1 and that the counter is to focus her as a group or win before she gets to lategame. Now, in the interest of not bumping a troll thread (OP admitted to trolling; see above), I'm going to stop replying.

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 20162 votes

not even a Warwick can facetank yi or jax later on, and trundle always is nasty, Graves however does not have to facetank, he can kite and heal up alot health while doing so

WoonStruckMay 11, 201610 votes

Scaling tankiness? Renekton has .1 more armor growth per level.

Only champions that deal significant magic damage benefit from the base stats of ranged champions, as they do not have MR/level.

Ranged champions (specifically marksmen) do not have significantly worse stats than melee, despite having the huge advantage of range. Mages are generally properly balanced. Ranged AD are not.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 11, 20162 votes

the adc with the highest level 18 armor is kennen at 88.1. the second "real" adc be quinn at 82. the lowest armor stat at level 18 is thresh with 16 (tho he is an isolated case due to souls) and 2nd lowest being gnar with 65.5. the highest level 18 armor is held by rammus with 104.5 and the 2nd highest is braum with 103. Also due to their kids depends on their value. for example a jax having the same base stats as rammus would be fucking crazy... and someone like renekton having the base stats of thresh be absolute trash. the reason for this is their spells for example renekton have a heal which inflates his health pool high above lucains. he also has cc and stat steroids. lucain does not have this he replaces the heal for rank in the q. the cc for a movement speed boost in w. he swaps the duobal instant jumps for 1 single jump which can have the cooldown lowered. and he swaps tank stats with aoe damage for a discouragement spell (that generally means he will use it to force people off objectives and not in a real teamfight)

WoonStruckMay 11, 20164 votes

Lucian also gets bonus AD value via passive when his base AD is already very high.

It goes both ways.

Range is not properly budgeted in champions' kits. At the very least, Lucian's base stats are over-tuned.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 11, 20163 votes

ok so heres the thing. if you want pure maths facts would you rather renekton be really strong and oppressive or lucain be really weak? also i said generally you picked 2 extreme examples. do all the top laners and all the adcs then compare them.

WoonStruckMay 11, 20163 votes

First off, I'm pretty sure people would rather Renekton be strong than Lucian. Lucian crowds out all other choices when he's strong. He's objectively better than other ADCs, kit-wise.

Its not top laners vs adcs. Its melee vs range.

More accurately, we should be doing melee ADCs vs ranged ADCs.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 11, 20163 votes

well the are alot of objectivly better kits i mean you ever seen tris when shes strong... i mean the top adc strong... shits a fucking nightmare id take lucain at his strongest any day over that. as for melee adcs vs ranged ones. renekton arnt an adc and an early game adc like lucain would clearly have better base stats then someone like yi or tryndamere who is about scaling.

put it this way. if ranged champions had no disatvantages at all... then melees wouldnt be picked... at all...

WoonStruckMay 11, 20164 votes

Melees generally aren't picked unless they're overloaded, support (including tanks and such top lane), or assassin.

How many melee AP do you see running around? How many fighters, bruisers, juggernauts, etc do you not see getting bullied out of top by ranged/overloaded champs?

If you aren't a tank or overloaded, you practically aren't going top right now. Renekton, who was the poster-boy for balance top-lane according to Riot, isn't even really viable atm.

PartholonianMay 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How many melee AP do you see running around?

You mean other than Ekko?

Kassadin was one of the highest pick/bans in history until his epic nerfs.

I see some Dianas, not a lot, but she's not unplayable by any means. Same for Rumble.

Elise is melee most of the time and AP all of the time.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You mean other than Ekko?

Pretty sure he falls under 'over-tuned'

Kassadin was one of the highest pick/bans in history until his epic nerfs.

Ranged vs Melee was relatively balanced last time he was pick/ban. Galio was actually a thing during a few points where he was pick/ban as well, if that's any indicator.

I see some Dianas, not a lot, but she's not unplayable by any means. Same for Rumble.

Diana is one of the biggest cases of 'over-tuned or useless' at any given point. She's also effectively an assassin as the game goes on, which only helps her viability as a melee. If you think about it, Ekko is a less situational, more over-loaded Diana.

Rumble isn't strictly melee due to his kit. He's a mid-ranged caster, like Vlad. His passive is generally only usable while trading in lane, and that's the only time he'd really ever want to be in melee range because its far too risky in most teamfights.

By the same token, I wouldn't exactly call Galio a strictly Melee champion either. The only melee thing about him are his auto attacks, which aren't central to his kit at all.

Elise is melee most of the time and AP all of the time.

Incorrect. She's only usually melee when in the jungle. Any time she's around champions, she's generally ranged until she all-ins, meaning she's making full benefit of the advantage of range until that moment (when she has the advantage and doesn't need that safety anymore).

All of the champions you described essentially get to ignore the fact that they're melee due to their specific kits, which is just beating around the bush, basically. Even Diana, due to having 2 gapclosers.

Most melees do not have that luxury. In general, unless they're forced to function via being overloaded, or they're effectively a support (tanks included)/assassin. Irelia and Xin were some of the first examples of being 'forced' to function. Ekko is the latest.

Finally, you'll notice that all of the champions you listed, outside of Elise who can effectively be considered ranged, were either pick/ban or considered garbage at any given point, only emphasizing the point that ranged do not generally give up anything significant for the extreme safety net of being ranged.

Vlad and Ryze are the only ranged champions I can think of that they're actively balancing around being ranged, because for some reason they want them to go top lane now, rather than easily balancing them for mid.

Icestar1186May 12, 20161 votes

There are few melee/AP champions that are not meant to be full tanks. Therefore, there are not going to be many running around.

When played against properly, a ranged toplaner will be annoying early game and lose to the tank/bruiser's superior CC and mobility late game.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

When played against properly, a ranged toplaner will be annoying early game and lose to the tank/bruiser's superior CC and mobility late game.

When played properly, a ranged top laner will pressure hard and get supplementary pressure from the jungler to take the tower early (and also invalidating the risk of hard pushing), and control the map for the rest of the game.

This is what happened with Graves. Its what happened with Ryze (specifically pre-rework). Its what happened with Lissandra. Early pressure translating into map pressure.

Why can ranged champions pressure so easily, you might ask? What core feature do these champions have that enable them to pressure so hard early? And what do they give up for that benefit, because it definitely isn't budgeted in their overall kits, since they aren't specifically early-game champions and balanced around that intrinsic pressure.

Icestar1186May 12, 20161 votes

If your jungler is able to gank, a squishy ranged champion is an easy kill - especially if they've been pushing and you are a tank with CC. Later in the game, CC can render all the damage they have completely useless. Melee champions usually have better kits than ranged champions as well - put Leona's kit on an ADC, for example, and you'll have a truly broken champion.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20163 votes

That's because 'squishy ranged champions' build pretty squishy. If I build Irelia or Maokai glass cannon, I'd die just as easily.

And range can render entire kits completely useless. Its the same kind of argument as 'CC counters damage'.

Melee champions used to have better kits. That was definitely a point.

Also, Leona is kind of a poor example. Take someone like braum. Put his kit on Thresh, with the advantage of being ranged now. Is Thresh any more potent with Braum's kit?

No, he's not really broken now. He's just better than Braum was because now he has range.

Icestar1186May 12, 20161 votes

That's because 'squishy ranged champions' build pretty squishy. If I build Irelia or Maokai glass cannon, I'd die just as easily.

So you are agreeing with me? I'm not sure what you are going for here...

And range can render entire kits completely useless. Its the same kind of argument as 'CC counters damage'.

So, like CC and damage, range is one of the many variables you need to play around. I don't see your point.

Melee champions used to have better kits. That was definitely a point.

Also, Leona is kind of a poor example. Take someone like braum. Put his kit on Thresh, with the advantage of being ranged now. Is Thresh any more potent with Braum's kit?

No, he's not really broken now. He's just better than Braum was because now he has range.

That's my point. Put a melee kit on a ranged champ and they're broken. They give up power in their abilities to have range. It seems like you agree with everything I'm saying except that range isn't broken.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So you are agreeing with me? I'm not sure what you are going for here...

Its the argument that bruisers and tanks, who are supposed to have better base stats to compensate for lack of range, actually have worse base stats than some ranged champions, pretty much with the exception of health, that's usually invalidated after the single auto attack you'd inevitably take for being anywhere close to them.

So, like CC and damage, range is one of the many variables you need to play around. I don't see your point.

This is exactly my point. You have to play around it, but it has an insane advantage in the fact that it is undervalued in a champion's 'power-budget'.

That's my point.

My point was that Braum's kit wouldn't be all that broken on Thresh. You'd just have the cheese passive that would be nerfed solely due to the fact that range is a huge advantage over melee. The argument that melees have significantly better kits to offset the advantage of range doesn't exactly hold up.

When ranged champions use something that was intended for melees and it gets nerfed...its not because melees have more powerful tools. Its because range is inherently far more powerful than melee, and users of range often do not give up enough to balance having that tool utilized at range.

For example: Red buff. A tool originally used by junglers for ganking. It was a 10/20/30% slow originally. People figured out this was broken on ranged champions, and it was subsequently nerfed on them. This was an objective that was intended for anyone to make use of; it even used to give ability power (fiddle sticks). So in this case, was it because it was intended for melees so it was too powerful for ranged, or because ranged is undervalued in just about every instance of balance?

Icestar1186May 12, 20161 votes

My point was that Braum's kit wouldn't be all that broken on Thresh. You'd just have the cheese passive that would be nerfed solely due to the fact that range is a huge advantage over melee. The argument that melees have significantly better kits to offset the advantage of range doesn't exactly hold up.

For example: Red buff. A tool originally used by junglers for ganking. It was a 10/20/30% slow originally. People figured out this was broken on ranged champions, and it was subsequently nerfed on them. This was an objective that was intended for anyone to make use of; it even used to give ability power. So in this case, was it because it was intended for melees, or because ranged is undervalued in just about every instance of balance?

You keep saying that melee kits would be too strong on ranged champions. I keep saying that that's the point. That's why those champions are melee. Riot accounts for that by not putting those abilities on ranged champions. The only problem happens when an item or something has an effect like one of those abilities that are kept out of ranged kits. That's why Red buff and Devourer were nerfed for ranged champions. And you keep saying that that doesn't matter; that range itself is some mystical power that makes things instantly broken. Don't believe that range is part of the power budget? Imagine how weak Ashe would be if she was melee. Or Lucian, or Draven, or any ADC. They would be like weaker versions of Yi/Trynd. They'd be pointless.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20163 votes

The point is not that melees have stronger kits. Its that range multiplies the effectiveness of anything. If this were exclusive to kits, you might have a point.

Range used Frozen Mallet better. They used red buff better. They used Trinity Force better. They've used IBG better. They've used Sterak's better. They've used Maw better. They've used GA better. They've used Banshee's Veil better. They've used QSS better, and even got an item catered to them that builds out of it. They used Baron buff better. They use just about every instance of lifesteal/AD better. They use pure AP better, because they have range as a safety net.

Are you going to say that 'melee have stronger tools' for all of those? because that's not the case. Range just makes everything better. Its not because melees have stronger tools. Some do, but not all. Especially if you start taking a look at ranged steroids vs melee steroids.

SlaktarTaskenMay 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P90T6U0l,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-11T23:02:04.103+0000)

well the are alot of objectivly better kits i mean you ever seen tris when shes strong... i mean the top adc strong... shits a fucking nightmare id take lucain at his strongest any day over that. as for melee adcs vs ranged ones. renekton arnt an adc and an early game adc like lucain would clearly have better base stats then someone like yi or tryndamere who is about scaling.

put it this way. if ranged champions had no disatvantages at all... then melees wouldnt be picked... at all...

Haven't really noticed melee's getting crowded out in all roles aside from tanks/tank-support have you (don't worry, just a matter of time)?

And the only reason choice tanks are even viable is because they have been tuned to incorporate absurd base stats, base damage and competitive utility due to how rampand ADC's have become, thud crowding out melee fighters even more.

How often do you see a figher who's name isn't Gangplank or Trundle in a competitive match? One is only viable due to absurd mechanics and scaling, the other is only viable due to building tank, the latter sentance also applies to juggernauts.

For gods sake, just look at the state of the jungle (the one place that used to be a safe place for melees to go), now totally dominated by ranged champs crowding out melee's.

Graves Nidalee Kindred <- Here's your entire list of S tier junglers.

But hey, melee still guud right?

SonaTitsAndAssMay 12, 20161 votes

yep nidalees ranged form isnt to apply the passive to fuck you up melee and graves doesnt do more damage close range. and as for MasterYi Shyvana they where so weak till a patch ago. and dont even get me started on Ekko Zed and Volibear all super weak right now

SlaktarTaskenMay 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P90T6U0l,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-05-12T23:34:23.743+0000)

yep nidalees ranged form isnt to apply the passive to fuck you up melee and graves doesnt do more damage close range. and as for they where so weak till a patch ago. and dont even get me started on and all super weak right now

Nice, bringing up overtuned outliers that just about everyone knows are retardedly overtuned. Zed Ekko

Also, regardless of their state in solo MasterYi Shyvana are never seen in competitive due to how incredibly easy they are for any coordinated team to just kite and cc lock to death. Volibear also tends to build straight tank and I'd argue his ability to do so while retaining relevant DPS is the only reason he's even viable in DQ, as tanks/offtanks goes he's weaker on the utility side and doesn't really have any strong engage or outplay potential outside of skirmishes.

As for ranged, Nidalee with her spears can easely make or break sieges due to her ability to half/three quarter-shot squishies with a single hit and incredible sustain, not to mention her ability to zone turret areas with traps.

Yes, her range is primarily used to set up her melee finishers during laning phase, but her melee aspects hardly scale as hard as her ranged aspect does outside of skirmishing scenarios and you will hardly see her running around trying to initiate fights in melee form once teamfighting starts, it's just a form she uses to mop up or escape later on, once again, due to the correlation and nature between melee and range, something you entirely seem to disregard.

Graves does more damage at melee ranges, true, but he still has the option finish people of at range, also, his max range AA's also hurt as once he completes items. How many true melee's do you see with a ~ 1000 range finishers? He also has one of the games most potent defensive steroids tied to his mobility. Hence, why he's a top tier jungler, regardless, he's undeniably a ranged champion despite attempts to portait him as melee, which frankly, is just absurd.

No mention of Kindred I see.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 13, 20161 votes

I am not gonna read all that but just google most played champions LCS your find out most of them are things like trundle gangplank poppy fiora ekko maokai gragus ryze and graves for top lane. so thats 2 ranged champions. for jungle its things like elise reksai lee sin nidalee gragus kindread and graves. while yes some of these champions do have both forms the form both elise and nidalee do the most damage in is melee form. And ill give you kindread.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20161 votes

i said generally you picked 2 extreme examples.

Two extreme examples? No, I used the two 'poster-boys' for balance in their typical roster.

Riot thinks Lucian is basically the standard of what an ADC should be able to do.

Renekton is the standard of what 'bruisers' should be able to accomplish.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 12, 20162 votes

im 500% past caring but please link me some quote for these statments

WoonStruckMay 12, 20161 votes

If you cared, you'd find them yourself.

Everyone that's been playing League for over a year or two knows about "The Renekton Bar" and similar cases among other classes, one of them being Thresh in support's case.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 12, 20162 votes

just say them iv been playing since season 1 im not gonna remember every tiny fucking detail of every post made

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

The Renekton Bar was a topic that came up constantly on the forums, in red posts, in patch-notes.

If you don't remember it, you likely won't remember anything worth discussing.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 12, 20162 votes

then just dont fucking talk. not everyone has time to read every tiny fucking detail on the forums.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

The Renekton Bar is not a 'tiny detail'. It was one of the most notable things for an entire season.

Its like if you missed Nasus Jungle being meta for two whole seasons.

Or if you missed that Cinderhulk was the go-to meta in season 5.

SonaTitsAndAssMay 12, 20162 votes

you keep saying "how can you not know these things" if your not gonna link them. dont reply. save us both some time

Icestar1186May 12, 20161 votes

If you cared, you'd find them yourself.

Essentially, you're saying it's our job to cite your sources. In any real debate, that would be laughable. If you're going to say something, it's your job to prove it.

WoonStruckMay 12, 20162 votes

This isn't a debate. Its a discussion. I'm stating things for input, and if you don't believe me rather than wanting to give that input, that's not my problem.

What would I gain by misleading you while upholding anonymity? I don't think I'm trolling, so why would I give out faulty information?

At the same time, I could ask for sources on any little thing I didn't want to believe as well. This is a casual discussion, not a debate. I didn't start it with the intent of everyone having their sources ready so they can argue every little point.

Have I asked for sources on 'ranged champions are generally squishier than melee'? Has anyone else? No. This is a discussion, not a serious debate. We're here to discuss opinion. Not throw researched facts back and fourth.

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20163 votes

I'd rather Renekton be oppressive TBH. He still falls off by his kit and range (melee) alone.