Thoughts and Discussion: Caitlyn

Stacona··1 votes·413 views

I do not make these posts off of direct current events, do not do these based off of solo queue games (reaction posts are dumb 99% of the time), I do these because I recognize some kind of issue with the champion; whether it is for the player or the one playing against the champion.

As far as Caitlyn goes, she wants the opponent to take their hands off their keyboard+mouse and just let her take the tower because nothing you can do about it AND she outscales you as a lane bully hyper marksman (that should sound broken because it is). Yes, Caitlyn has a mid game lull, but I feel balancing through mid game is a terrible way to balance since it is a transition period. I feel it is much easier to balance a champion through strong late game or strong early game, with the mid game champions still leaning towards late game or early game, but no where near with the extremes of lane bully or hyper scaler (Kog'Maw, Twitch, Jinx, Anivia, Karthus, Azir, etc. should be weak early because of their scaling - Draven, Renekton, Lucian, etc. should fall off in an ideal world since their early game are so strong).


We need to decide if Caitlyn should be a lane bully or a hyper marksman.

For the sake of my concept kit I will assume people want her to be a lane bully.

General rundown of what I be looking at for Caitlyn: ~ New Passive: ~ ~ ~ Attacking as fast as possible doesn't make sense for a sniper that wants to focus her shot for one super deadly shot. It makes more sense to give her something that has her laying in wait for one super deadly shot with huge range. This will help fix her overlap of lane bully hyper marksman by giving her a short range to reduce her scaling and really focus on her lane bully sniper ways and thematic (make sense in a bit).

~ Q is a pretty good ability, feels good to use and fair to play against. Also has the cool aspect of forcing Caitlyn to walk around the minion wave for maximum super physical nuke damage. Offers good wave clear, but not overpowering since its focus is in the first enemy hit single target damage (snipers should have focused damage from a distance).

~ W traps. As they stand currently they need a massive overhaul of changes. But having them trigger range and damage could work a lot more fairly if Caitlyn's base attack range is down, but what we have learned from her last rework is that 5 is far too many traps since a wall of traps removes their strategic placing element and instead just completely starves the enemy out of oxygen with nothing they can do about it. Rather have them about controlling the enemies' pathing and think twice before stepping in a brush for if they step in that trap they take a hurting of some serious pain. ~ ~ ~ Short end. Traps need to move back into being strategic areas of control and away from a wall of traps. ~ ~ ~ If Caitlyn keeps her traps the charge system will definitely stay, she should be able to pick up her tent and camp elsewhere easily enough.

~ On a personal level I hate dashes, but especially blinks since dashes can have a form of balance, but if you are going to give mobility spells like a dash, instant teleport, jump, etc. then it has to be draw a huge portion of power from the champion since they are much, much stronger than anyone gives them credit for (there are very few champions in the game that take in mobility has a huge portion of their power as they should). ~ ~ As far as E goes. The power of the dash and slow is more problematic giving a passive massive attack range with it just out of the gate which that range leads to some ridiculous scaling. I do feel that there is something we can do better for a retreat / escape ability for Caitlyn that does not involve giving her a mobility spell, but at the same time with the right changes elsewhere in the kit Caitlyn becomes a lot more manageable to deal with which means the dash+slow ability can just stay as is since her balance issues have been fixed for the most part.

~ Ultimate is very Caitlyn. It also has pretty decent gameplay to it with its channel time before firing and ability for other champions to block the shot as well, also it has a meaningful enough cooldown to it so it cannot be mindlessly spammed. ~ ~ ~ Only change I would do to it, potentially, would be move the damage more into execution range so it is not about getting free poke on any champion and more about killing a low health target that moved to far away to attack. This aspect would also place even more emphasis on teammates blocking the shot to save their ally rather than everyone taking a huge nuke of damage. Execution damage does add slightly more skill to a super long range point-and-click nuke as well since it becomes use for a reason rather than just use for free damage.

tl;dr : small scale changes with a brand new passive to feel more sniper themed and re-balance Caitlyn's kit to be about lane bully and not double dip into late game scaling as well


CONCEPT KIT BELOW! THIS MEANS TAKE EVERYTHING WITH A SUPER SMALL GRAIN OF SAND OR LESS!!!


Basic Attack Range: 450 units from 650 units (do not crucify me!) Attack Speed: 0.690 +2.5% from 0.543 +2% (no longer uber range so no need for super low base attack speed, giving a high attack speed at a very low range and her NEW! super range will have a very low DPS in a different light)


Headshot (Passive): Ranks: @levels 1/3/6/9/11/16 If Caitlyn stands still without taking champion damage for 2.5/2/1.5/1.25/1/0.75 second(s) then her next basic attack's current attack range doubles and deals 120% damage (250% vs minions and monsters), split between 50% physical and 50% true. Moving cancels a readied Headshot that has yet to be fired.

Headshot attacks can only damage structures if allied minions are nearby it.

Additionally, Caitlyn's basic abilities will also ready Headshot against their target.

Piltover Peacemaker (Q): Cooldown: 6 seconds; Cost: 50/60/70/80/90 mana; Range: 1250 units After a 1 second delay, Caitlyn fires a projectile in the target direction dealing 10/60/110/160/210(+80/105/130/155/180%AD) physical damage to the first enemy struck and readying Headshot against it for the next 1.5 seconds.

After hitting one enemy the projectile's width and damage are both reduced by 50% for every enemy beyond the first.

Yordle Snap Trap (W): Cooldown: 0.5 second; Cost: 20 mana + 1 Trap; Range: 900 units Passive: Caitlyn stores a trap every 40/33/26/19/12 seconds, up to a maximum of 2/3/4/5/6 at a time. Only 3 Yordle Snap Traps can be in play at a time.

Active: Caitlyn places a Yordle Snap Trap at the target location that arms after a brief delay, if an enemy champion walks over it then they are rooted for 1.5 seconds readying Headshot against it for 1.5 seconds. The same target can only trigger a Yordle Snap Trap once every 3 seconds.

90 Caliber Net (E): Cooldown: 16/14.5/13/11.5/10 seconds; Cost: 75 mana; Range: 1000 units Caitlyn fires a 90 Caliber Net in the target direction slowing down the first enemy struck by 99% for 0.75/1/1.25/1.5/1.75 seconds, dealing 60/80/100/120/140(+100%AP) magic damage, and readying Headshot against it for 1.5 seconds.

If the struck enemy was within Caitlyn's attack range then she knocks herself away to her current maximum attack range.

Ace in the Hole (R): Cooldown: 90/75/60 seconds; Cost: 100 mana; Range: 2000/2500/3000 units Caitlyn targets an enemy champion and channels for 1.5 seconds, then she releases a powerful shot that can be intercepted by other enemy champions, dealing between 100/200/300(+100%bonusAD) to 300/600/900(+300%bonusAD) physical damage based on the struck champion's missing health.


CLARIFICATION:

So basically this Headshot triggers in two ways, standing still for a required amount of time without taking champion damage (so a natural advantage for sitting in brush - cannot be seen, so cannot be hit essentially) and must remain standing still or you lose the empowered attack. The static cooldown is simply waiting out the required standing still time again, cannot keep firing super overpowered attacks for free, you can be attacking and gain Headshot's attack as long as you do not take champion damage (i.e. stand still, hit minions, get those minion last hits, and whenever the passive is off its cooldown harass your opponent).

The other way is landing your skill shots allowing for a one time Headshot attack within a short time window, this attack can only be used against the target you hit with the ability, but does not go away when Caitlyn moves unlike the standing still requirement for the passive - also does not share the same static cooldown (just technically that ability's cooldown).

Q+E changes: 90 Caliber Net (E) is emphasis on trigger Headshot and MASSIVELY slowing down the target for a short duration, with less emphasis on direct burst, and sometimes dashing if a target is too close you can hit the eject button to get out of there - also allows for a cool aspect of granting Caitlyn a super dash if she uses E+Headshot together since the range of the dash is based on current maximum attack range (a drawback is this does make it a lot more skill reliant since missing her E is a lot more punishing) - this change also helps make sense with the new found short attack range to not screw over Caitlyn with E's new CC emphasis and dashing only to her maximum attack range from the struck target rather than a static dash all the time.

Piltover Peacemaker (Q) is practically the same thing, with an adjustment to more single target damage and less area of effect damage to focus on its cool and unique element better - also damage reduced by a lot early for a lot more Qs early, equally out as it was before ~ish by rank 5. The biggest change is readying Headshot against the first target so now all 3 basic abilities ready the passive for the range and damage boost placing Caitlyn as a skill based sniper marksman bully rather than a brain dead champion to play. ~ Makes her more rewarding which in turn more fun to play in my opinion (fun aspect is subjective, but the rewarding aspect holds true for playing her well and feel terrible how she is now for not playing her well [its like feeling really good when you land your Dark Bindings on Morgana and really bad when you miss them all]) ~ Giving her real weaknesses and strengths should have her less frustrating to play against, i.e. be aggressive when she tries to charge up an attack and/or avoid her skill shots gives a fairness when against her. Other side of the spectrum rather than get free long range autos you jump be more rapid firing short range autos all the way to super powerful autos that deal the heavy hitting damage and literally sniping people off and really getting into the champion you are playing by yelling out loud BOOM! HEADSHOT! for either proper positioning to basic attack or landing your skill shots to kill your target - and if they are too far away and alone finish them off with Ace in the Hole (still need vision of the target obviously). ~ ~ ~ And of course Ace in the Hole is the exact same ability, just a lot less damage for full health targets to reduce free poke damage ability, and more damage for execution range to ensure execution. Makes it cooler having it as a sniper finishing off her target from a very safe distance rather than 50-80% of a squishy's health in the late game all the time.




Well that is about all I have to say on the subject matter for now. Just wanted to showcase something that can move Caitlyn into a fairness to play against while keep her lane bully sniper aspect, fix the underlying issues then we can easily tune her power numerically between every patch without worry of ruining someone's gameplay experience.

I tried to keep things fair for both sides of the coin, ensure something that is fun for the Caitlyn player with the question "If I played this kit would I enjoy my time?" and honestly I would, and the other side of "Am I going to insanely frustrated and feel helpless to do anything when playing against this champion?" ideally this should feel like she does her job of bully me in lane, but not in a bull shit matter (I say ideally because that is the goal we are striving for, but hard to say for sure without actual gameplay, she cannot be worse than what she is now to play against).

16 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

her traps only let her place 3 traps at once til she has 3 points in it currently and it already has a delay to arm the trap of 1.1 seconds

Yordle Snap Trap TARGET RANGE: 800 COLLISION RADIUS: 67.5 COST: 20 MANA RECHARGE TIME: 45 / 32.5 / 20 / 12.5 / 10 Yordle Snap Trap PASSIVE: Caitlyn periodically stores a charge of Yordle Snap Trap, up to a maximum amount stored at once. MAXIMUM TRAPS: 3 / 3 / 4 / 4 / 5 ACTIVE: Caitlyn sets a trap at the target location that arms after 1.1 seconds and lasts up to 90. After the maximum amount of traps is laid down, deploying another immediately destroys the oldest one. Enemy champions who step on a trap set it off, Root icon rooting them for 2 seconds, during which they take increased damage from Headshot.png Headshot, grant True Sight icon true sight of themselves for 9 seconds, and become immune to Yordle Snap Traps for 4 seconds while they remain in the area. Headshot.png HEADSHOT DAMAGE INCREASE: 30 / 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 (+ 70% AD)

Stacona1 votes

I know what her traps do now, the change is really just removing 5 traps in play at a time so they become tactical placements rather than a wall of traps. I said this in the main post and you should read the entire thing carefully.

ModEchoing1 votes

Then you have your tank disarm the trap instead.

A wall of traps is not that daunting an obstacle given that doing so removes Caitlyn's ability to combo allied CC with her traps without losing a trap in that wall. Even then, the radius is small enough that you can get through the traps just fine if you're careful with your move commands.

Your proposed change removes one of Caitlyn's unique strengths relative to other ADCs. It is a bad idea.

I feel obligated to mention that a 450 attack range on an ADC is the worst possible thing you could do. Headshots are not adequate compensation, and your intended changes would move Caitlyn away from standard ADC play patterns to outright suicide by making her unable to CS safely and efficiently and encouraging her to stop moving in the middle of hectic fights where she really, really needs to keep moving.

You need to play more Caitlyn. None of what you're suggesting indicates you have much experience with her, or the ADC role in general.

Stacona1 votes

It makes her skill reliant with 450 range, because if you stand still you get 900 range (1200 with RFC, it would double that passive too) or land your skill shots and you become rewarded with 900 range against THAT TARGET. The standing still boost is any target.

At no point is Caitlyn trash tier with these changes, it just makes her not severely overpowered / broken, she becomes manage-able to play against by giving her a real weakness. Trust me she will be able to bully out anyone in lane with this change, just her scaling might receive a massive hit in an ideal world which was the purpose of this. Either Caitlyn is a hyper marksman or a lane bully, but both is too much and one of them has to go.

Also Caitlyn becomes MORE unique since she actually has to play like a sniper, right now she is just straight up stronger than everyone else and is super obnoxious to play against with no weaknesses. How is this any fun or fair to play against?

Vekkna2 votes

450 is the range of Morgana's autos. lel

Stacona1 votes

And? Caitlyn's attacks a super fluid to use also per passive gives her 900 range and can double RFC's bonus range for 1200 range total for that auto. The change is simply for super range to either be patient and line up your shot, via standing still and not taking champion damage OR you land your skill shot making Cautlyn not a brain dead champion to play and actually require skill, this emphasizes her unique sniper concept really well which her current kit does not do that.

ModEchoing1 votes

You don't have time for patience in League of Legends. Even if you did, your new Headshot does less damage than live Caitlyn's Headshot once she picks up crit items.

Thematic emphasis also shouldn't come at a cost to fun gameplay. Standing still may be perfectly fine for a sniper in a FPS from a safe vantage point, but in a MOBA, standing still as someone without any health or survivability items is suicidal.

Would recommend you avoid calling Caitlyn a braindead champion for the implications of people that do play her. There are plenty of expressions of skill in Caitlyn's kit that you're overlooking because you can't get past a wall of traps and her 650 AA range. Go buy her and play some games with her.

ModEchoing1 votes

Rapid Firecannon caps at +150 range, so that statement's wrong.

Having 450 range does not make a champion skill reliant. It makes them terrible at being an ADC as they can no longer safely autoattack. Since you're nerfing Caitlyn's traps and messing around with the E, this also cuts her utility such that her fallback pattern takes an even bigger hit.

Making an ADC stand still and do nothing to get bonus damage would make them trash tier, yeah. Even if it's just 0.75 seconds, it leaves Caitlyn open to easy skillshots that would get her instantly killed since she cannot afford to build defenses. You also nerfed Headshot's damage anyways - without the bonus multiplier from crit, Caitlyn's DPS plummets, all for the sake of getting 900 AA range on one shot. This means Caitlyn's a pale imitation of an APC in play pattern, except even worse since if someone gets on her she's now stuck with 450 AA range.

I neglected to address this in my first post, but the changes to her E make it incredibly inconsistent. Because of how it's worded, the self-knockback happens AFTER hitting the enemy. This would be clunky as hell already, but gets exacerbated because you just removed Caitlyn's out-of-combat or emergency mobility. Since she has to hit SOMEONE to knock herself backwards, no target means no knockback. Knocking her to the max extent of her range...does nothing. You just moved 450 units because you gave her 450 AA range. Anyone with a gap-closer or Flash or whatever is going to jump on you and kill you easily. If you happen to have Headshot up for some insane reason, you rocket 900 units away and exit the battlefield completely. This is bad because not only are you no longer in range of anyone after your headshot, you are now no longer in range of your allies, meaning any mobile assassin will quickly finish you off now that you've kindly separated yourself from your team.

Unique isn't inherently a good quality. A champion that self-destructs at 50% HP to hurt everyone nearby, friend or foe, is unique, but that'd also be pretty terrible. Making an ADC stand still is unique, but still terrible.

Caitlyn's also not stronger than anyone else. If you've been paying attention to the patch notes at all, you'll note Riot's been dinging her attack speed over and over to slow her down. Caitlyn's got a Q that falls off by late-game since her AAs deal more damage, and outside of Headshot, she has no actual steroids. She's also got an ult that immobilizes her in a lengthy channel, requiring good timing and positioning as opposed to other ADC ults. Contrast with Ashe's incredible team utility, Jhin's own long-range attacks, Miss Fortune's wide AoE damage, Jinx's snowballing, and Graves' burst damage. They've all got things Caitlyn simply cannot do.

I'd recommend you stop complaining about champions you don't play. Go play Caitlyn for several games, you'll find out her weaknesses firsthand.

Vekkna1 votes

And besides all of those reasons, they already have this fantasy playing out with Jhin's ult (immobile sniper) and rework (pre- re-rework) Kog'maw (immobile artillery turret).

I do think there could be a place for an artillery marksman similar to Sgt. Hammer in HoTS, but that's not what OP is describing at all.

Stacona1 votes

Caps at 150 bonus range normally, but when you have a multiplier that doubles your range then that too gets doubled. It doubles current range, not base range.

ModEchoing1 votes

No, it literally caps at 150 bonus range. Look it up on the wiki.

Unless you're trying to imply that Rapid Firecannon's bonus applies first, THEN your version of Headshot's range boost. I suppose that would be correct then.

You haven't answered any of the other points, though.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

but in your long drawn out post you changed nothing

you want her not to be able to place 5 traps she cant til she maxes the ability so it isnt an issue in lane

you want an arm time IT HAS THAT

Stacona1 votes

She can STORE multiple traps at a time, the maximum traps on the field at a time are reduced to 3 from 5. I am fine with placing traps down and then repacking and setting up camp elsewhere with the remaining charges, the problem is just having the 5 traps on the field at a time is waaay too many.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

but she can only place 5 when she maxes E

not right away in lane where the issue is the most obvious

Vekkna2 votes

I do play Cait and agree with some of the premise here, just not any of the "solutions." The empowered headshot on E is completely unnecessary, though it does make for some really fun plays.

As for the traps, I personally think they should apply a bleed and slow based on % missing hp, and range proc but without the free headshot and root. The idea being that traps wound an enemy, and Cait chases to finish them off.

Another idea is to add significant power to the traps but allow them to be triggered by minions or killed by auto attacks. If you do that, you can get away with things like making them invisible in brush, longer duration, or dealing good damage.

Stacona1 votes

The idea for my kit is link her range to a skill element since the free long range right out of the gate is too oppressive and offers zero interactivity for the opponent to do anything to stop it. Link the attacks with skill shots or a specific action that can be dealt with in some way and it makes Caitlyn less frustrating to play against since the opponent won't feel helpless.

The opponent dying to Caitlyn should feel like they got outplayed rather than complete bull shitted. Plus making Caitlyn more skillful and sniper themed makes her more rewarding to play as. The passive range got gutted by 200 units here to showcase that Caitlyn needs some kind of effort for her damage and to say that she SHOULD full off decently hard as the game goes on and fight her where she does not have the area under her control to compensate for powerful lane bully ways. Other option is we completely redo her kit so that she is a hyper marksman rather than a lane bully.


Also I think of the traps as the enemy steps in a bear trap allowing Caitlyn the time needed to set up her shot and take out her target.

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