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Urgot (and a few other champs) would be way less of an issue if we removed conqueror's healing

Tychusfindlay918··7 votes·5,092 views

Riven Renekton and even Jax would be much less of an issue as well.

Conqueror is fucking nuts even after all the adaptive force nerfs it received because of the insane fucking healing potential it has. Unlike other vamp effects such as deaths dance and gunblade, conqueror doesn't suffer reduced healing when damage is being dealt through AoE. Conqueror's healing is also ALWAYS based on pre-mitigation damage dealt.

"When fully stacked, 10% of your damage against champions is converted to true damage and you heal for 10% of the pre-mitigation damage dealt."

I've seen champions, of which urgot is probably the worst offender (but by far not the ONLY offender), literally take almost zero fucking damage in fights because conqueror plus deaths dance alone provides a ludicrous amount of fucking damage mitigation that honestly puts tank items to absolute shame.

Conqueror need to have its adaptive force come back somewhat, and its healing needs to be 100% REMOVED. In essence, it needs to be partially reverted.

Urgot and Riven and what-not shouldn't be tankier than tanks in skirmishes (or really, ever) because they can stack bullshit-tiers of healing along with insane damage potential between conqueror (even more lulzy when you add bloodline) and deaths dance.

I would be completely willing to bet that conqueror would actually be healthier if all of its post-rework nerfs were reverted so long as the healing got axed (although it would be SUPER nice if we just axed the healing on conqueror and then started axing other damage sources in the game to make sure conq doesn't fall behind).

17 Comments

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Imagine conq being absolute ass and you still find r words complaining about it.

Riven has been broken before conq, she will be broken after conq. She has received so many direct and indirect buffs over the years while every other toplane bruiser got directly and indirectly nerfed. Yet we sit here and complain about a keystone noone wants to take anymore.

And the other two cases you find op are jax and renekton. Yeah.

imagine for once complaining about actual issues. Renekton who is still tied between two keystones which are absolute ass is now "stacking bullshit tiers of healing" yeah except for every mage instantly applying grievous wounds hence why you need to stack so much healing, defenses are worthless so you just try to draintank as much as possible.

Yes let's remove the healing remove conq alltogether. Nerf jax again, nerf renekton, nerf urgot.

So challenger is full of adc and mid mains again. Oh wait it already is. Scrolling through 25 top ranks 1-25 you find 10 mid mains, 10 adc mains, one jayce player top and four jungler.

Man this fuckin conq ruins the game. Everyone plays renek and jax to insanely heal and outtank every tank and win every game. Oh wait they don't.

What a fuckin community it's insane. I don't even blame the riot devs anymore. They just do what this stupid community cries the loudest about and even when bruisers as a class are pretty much dead and outpowercreeped you'll find the boards full of complains about jax and conq.

In under a year every toplane bruiser got direct nerfs, tiamat massively and unnecessarily nerfed, trinity/sterak removed because of conq so that conq gets triple nerfed into uselessness, reworked and triple nerfed into uselessness. Let's also not forget trinity/sterak got removed because it was said we get SoS and Atmas. What do we get? A shittier revamped version of SoS noone builds except like two champs for youtube clicks.

in the same time adc get buffed into absolute r word tier again, supports buffed, mages keep being broken, tanks buffed and junglers get a slap on the wrist.

Who wines the loudest? Mid, adc, jungle. Pathetic fuckin joke this community is.

Zed gets somewhat playable again OH DEAR GOD RIOT DO SOMETHING People still have the audacity to pick melee bruisers toplane OH GOD RIOT WHAT ARE U DOING HOW CAN YOU LET THIS HAPPEN Assassins exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Bruisers exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Mages and adcs dominate the game--> we are so opressed by these spear of shojin conq bruisers in every game. All these sylas bruisers and kennen bruisers and jinx bruisers and vayne bruisers. Everything is a bruiser.

Tychusfindlay9182 votes

{quoted}

Imagine conq being absolute ass and you still find r words complaining about it.

Riven has been broken before conq, she will be broken after conq. She has received so many direct and indirect buffs over the years while every other toplane bruiser got directly and indirectly nerfed. Yet we sit here and complain about a keystone noone wants to take anymore.

And the other two cases you find op are jax and renekton. Yeah.

imagine for once complaining about actual issues. Renekton who is still tied between two keystones which are absolute ass is now "stacking bullshit tiers of healing" yeah except for every mage instantly applying grievous wounds hence why you need to stack so much healing, defenses are worthless so you just try to draintank as much as possible.

Yes let's remove the healing remove conq alltogether. Nerf jax again, nerf renekton, nerf urgot.

So challenger is full of adc and mid mains again. Oh wait it already is. Scrolling through 25 top ranks 1-25 you find 10 mid mains, 10 adc mains, one jayce player top and four jungler.

Man this fuckin conq ruins the game. Everyone plays renek and jax to insanely heal and outtank every tank and win every game. Oh wait they don't.

What a fuckin community it's insane. I don't even blame the riot devs anymore. They just do what this stupid community cries the loudest about and even when bruisers as a class are pretty much dead and outpowercreeped you'll find the boards full of complains about jax and conq.

In under a year every toplane bruiser got direct nerfs, tiamat massively and unnecessarily nerfed, trinity/sterak removed because of conq so that conq gets triple nerfed into uselessness, reworked and triple nerfed into uselessness. Let's also not forget trinity/sterak got removed because it was said we get SoS and Atmas. What do we get? A shittier revamped version of SoS noone builds except like two champs for youtube clicks.

in the same time adc get buffed into absolute r word tier again, supports buffed, mages keep being broken, tanks buffed and junglers get a slap on the wrist.

Who wines the loudest? Mid, adc, jungle. Pathetic fuckin joke this community is.

Zed gets somewhat playable again OH DEAR GOD RIOT DO SOMETHING People still have the audacity to pick melee bruisers toplane OH GOD RIOT WHAT ARE U DOING HOW CAN YOU LET THIS HAPPEN Assassins exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Bruisers exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Mages and adcs dominate the game--> we are so opressed by these spear of shojin conq bruisers in every game. All these sylas bruisers and kennen bruisers and jinx bruisers and vayne bruisers. Everything is a bruiser.

Who the hell are you complaining about?

Didn't say shit about zed. Not a mid, adc, jungle main. AM a bruiser main No Riven wasn't broken before conqueror, her kit is shit gameplay health, but her numbers were shit enough that without the conq crutch she couldn't really excel Yes actually jax can hard out-tank tanks with spear + conq combo. Renekton can survive some pretty stupid shit, and urgot actually can stay topped off between DD + conq healing and damage mitigation during a fight.

Use brain, use eyes, I don't give a fuck about this wall of text shitpost.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Ofc you don't give a fuck cuz you have nothing to say. Another worthless cry about something that only exists in this imaginary boards world.

Saying riven was shit before the new conq shows how clueless you are. Go walk into some jax counterstrike so you have something to cry about tommorrow. No counterplay so broken nothing i can do. Wow urgot got overbuffed. Did you figure that out yourself? What a clever boy.

Tychusfindlay9182 votes

{quoted}

Ofc you don't give a fuck cuz you have nothing to say. Another worthless cry about something that only exists in this imaginary boards world.

Saying riven was shit before the new conq shows how clueless you are. Go walk into some jax counterstrike so you have something to cry about tommorrow. No counterplay so broken nothing i can do. Wow urgot got overbuffed. Did you figure that out yourself? What a clever boy.

" Saying riven was shit before the new conq shows how clueless you are. "

Reading what I said about riven in that way shows how uneducated you are.

Go back and re-read what I said about riven, this time use your brain.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Except Conqueror is still goddam good? Coming from a bruiser player.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Maybe the NA server has a different conq then.

It's the opposite of what it was before is what pisses me off.

Ad and 20%pen was useful for everyone. What most bruisers lacked was surprisingly a way to bypass armor. Trinity champs without hybrid dmg like jax (and even he got cucked hard without conq) sucked ass after the removal of trinity/sterak comp. BC is still a dogshit item held hostage by ranged opressors.

Now conq is a shitty nerfed to the dirt keystone that only benefits a chosen few who can abuse the healing shenanigans. This right there is what pisses me off: Conq is a dogshit keystone and mediocre on a few who can abuse it aaaand we call to nerf it even further because some bruisers dare to be playable.

Conq is definitely NOT goddamn good. Quite the opposite especially if you are not riven, hecarim (who honestly is more buffed by the Q buffs than conq because surprisingly he only saw play after his Q got a pretty massive buff) and who else? Olaf? Because i do play renekton and jax and both are MEH with conq. Jax can be kinda good if you get to stack your bloodline, conq, DD maybe i won't deny that but realistically that won't happen often in any competitive setting.

I just hate this double standard like you don't see guinsoos get nerfed or reworked because vayne breaks it. You don't see infinity edge nerfed because a few crit adcs are out of line. But we get conq reworked which was already supbar because of two or three abuse cases to then get it reworked into this garbage that is only abused by a few with their shenanigans and we immediately call for nerfs on it all while ignoring the reason why bruisers even go for these healing stack shenanigans and why riot encourages it (ever looked at the current wits end rework?) and even then there is barely any bruiser that is competitively viable at all (solo AND pro play) but yeah let's nerf conq further >.>

Maybe i'm just having a bad day and got triggered needlessly if so i apologize maybe i missunderstood the thread here or something.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the NA server has a different conq then.

It's the opposite of what it was before is what pisses me off.

Ad and 20%pen was useful for everyone. What most bruisers lacked was surprisingly a way to bypass armor. Trinity champs without hybrid dmg like jax (and even he got cucked hard without conq) sucked ass after the removal of trinity/sterak comp. BC is still a dogshit item held hostage by ranged opressors.

Now conq is a shitty nerfed to the dirt keystone that only benefits a chosen few who can abuse the healing shenanigans. This right there is what pisses me off: Conq is a dogshit keystone and mediocre on a few who can abuse it aaaand we call to nerf it even further because some bruisers dare to be playable.

Conq is definitely NOT goddamn good. Quite the opposite especially if you are not riven, hecarim (who honestly is more buffed by the Q buffs than conq because surprisingly he only saw play after his Q got a pretty massive buff) and who else? Olaf? Because i do play renekton and jax and both are MEH with conq. Jax can be kinda good if you get to stack your bloodline, conq, DD maybe i won't deny that but realistically that won't happen often in any competitive setting.

I just hate this double standard like you don't see guinsoos get nerfed or reworked because vayne breaks it. You don't see infinity edge nerfed because a few crit adcs are out of line. But we get conq reworked which was already supbar because of two or three abuse cases to then get it reworked into this garbage that is only abused by a few with their shenanigans and we immediately call for nerfs on it all while ignoring the reason why bruisers even go for these healing stack shenanigans and why riot encourages it (ever looked at the current wits end rework?) and even then there is barely any bruiser that is competitively viable at all (solo AND pro play) but yeah let's nerf conq further >.>

Maybe i'm just having a bad day and got triggered needlessly if so i apologize maybe i missunderstood the thread here or something.

"Now conq is a shitty nerfed to the dirt keystone that only benefits a chosen few who can abuse the healing shenanigans. This right there is what pisses me off: Conq is a dogshit keystone and mediocre on a few who can abuse it aaaand we call to nerf it even further because some bruisers dare to be playable. "

Lulz, so we're actually relatively on the same side.

Like I said in the OP, I'm totally open to the idea of giving it back all the adaptive force it lost if we axe the healing. everyone can use the force fairly well, only a few seem to be able to seriously abuse the healing.

Problem is that, unless if I'm wrong here, there's a lot of under the table double dipping between new conq healing and DD being moved from physical vamp to omnivamp (includes true dmg).

Not every bruiser can necessarily get full use out of DD (most can though), so those that excel with DD and conq get a little whacky with it, and those bruisers are the ones I outlined in the OP and perhaps 1 or 2 more, but certainly not the entire bruiser roster.

Darius, garen, etc. are clearly not having a great time right now.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

Imagine conq being absolute ass and you still find r words complaining about it.

Riven has been broken before conq, she will be broken after conq. She has received so many direct and indirect buffs over the years while every other toplane bruiser got directly and indirectly nerfed. Yet we sit here and complain about a keystone noone wants to take anymore.

And the other two cases you find op are jax and renekton. Yeah.

imagine for once complaining about actual issues. Renekton who is still tied between two keystones which are absolute ass is now "stacking bullshit tiers of healing" yeah except for every mage instantly applying grievous wounds hence why you need to stack so much healing, defenses are worthless so you just try to draintank as much as possible.

Yes let's remove the healing remove conq alltogether. Nerf jax again, nerf renekton, nerf urgot.

So challenger is full of adc and mid mains again. Oh wait it already is. Scrolling through 25 top ranks 1-25 you find 10 mid mains, 10 adc mains, one jayce player top and four jungler.

Man this fuckin conq ruins the game. Everyone plays renek and jax to insanely heal and outtank every tank and win every game. Oh wait they don't.

What a fuckin community it's insane. I don't even blame the riot devs anymore. They just do what this stupid community cries the loudest about and even when bruisers as a class are pretty much dead and outpowercreeped you'll find the boards full of complains about jax and conq.

In under a year every toplane bruiser got direct nerfs, tiamat massively and unnecessarily nerfed, trinity/sterak removed because of conq so that conq gets triple nerfed into uselessness, reworked and triple nerfed into uselessness. Let's also not forget trinity/sterak got removed because it was said we get SoS and Atmas. What do we get? A shittier revamped version of SoS noone builds except like two champs for youtube clicks.

in the same time adc get buffed into absolute r word tier again, supports buffed, mages keep being broken, tanks buffed and junglers get a slap on the wrist.

Who wines the loudest? Mid, adc, jungle. Pathetic fuckin joke this community is.

Zed gets somewhat playable again OH DEAR GOD RIOT DO SOMETHING People still have the audacity to pick melee bruisers toplane OH GOD RIOT WHAT ARE U DOING HOW CAN YOU LET THIS HAPPEN Assassins exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Bruisers exist---> GOD RIOT WHY Mages and adcs dominate the game--> we are so opressed by these spear of shojin conq bruisers in every game. All these sylas bruisers and kennen bruisers and jinx bruisers and vayne bruisers. Everything is a bruiser.

That keystone could litteraly have this kind of text only “10% of damage you deal is true damage” And it would STILL be one of, if not still be the best keystone in the game.

Ragnaveil3 votes

Idk, issue with Riven is DD. Conq's just additional healing. And wait, it heals for pre? ...That explains why Riven is bonkers. Jax although has been bonkers regardless ever since Conq got released.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

DD is extremely sleeper OP after the straight buff to heal off all damage instead of just physical.

The healing % needs to be cut down to like, 12% at most.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I mean, its 15% of the damage dealt, but for anything AOE its 33% effectiveness, putting it at about 5%.

Moody P4 votes

All of its best users do explicitly physical damage only though.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P4wxsxpa,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-01T20:06:35.925+0000)

All of its best users do explicitly physical damage only though.

Not when they run conqueror, which already heals them at 100% efficacy for the true damage converted damage dealt.

Unless the coding is in place to stop it, I have a feeling that DD double dips healing with conqueror.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

It does, since it heals from all damage, the true damage is included.

What's more is that true damage always applies as single target damage, even if applied in an AoE attack, meaning DD, Gunblade and Ravenous all heal for their full effect on all true damage dealt.

XJ999999999999991 votes

Yeah I made a thread saying the only thing they need to do is nerf/remove conquerers healing and I got downvoted lawl.

makes hecarim/reksai bonkers as well.

It's insane that it doesn't last 3-5 seconds when you hit 5 abilities. It lasts forever until you are don't attack anything for 8 seconds? What? That's insane. And oh, it ran out, and you can just stack it again? Literally broken.

It's telling when conqueror would still be used even if they reduced healing to 33% or flat out removed it. The fact you get raw AD/AP can make champions who have high ratios out damage runes such as electrocute. You gain AD/AP as you attack, not just when you obtain 5 stacks.

IAmTheLego1 votes

Yeah...not gonna solve the problem.

The issue here is Urgot at rank 5 w will have infinite machine gunning mode that he can rush item 3812 and item 3072 without the need for black cleaver as a 1st item.

They made his W ridiculous and the fact they made his e scale on ad and hp is just dumb. He will gain strong shield on engage while perma life stealing.

And that's coming from someone who mains Urgot as a 2nd role.

Predatorator1 votes

i like it on Skarner which is a pretty fair champion. conclusion is that these champions you mentioned have problematic kits. riven and jax overall

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