When the twice nerfed Courage of the Colossus is still much better than Grasp

NvestmentPlanker·Feb 7, 2017·38 votes·2,680 views

I can't remember the last time I even saw Grasp of the Undying except for myself when I tried using it on Maokai after the second CoC nerf and Yorick (lol). Literally every tank/bruiser with hard CC is still opt'ing to use CoC or another Keystone because of how underwhelming Grasp is. Don't even get me started on Bond of Stone. Damage is an issue because every Keystone that favors damage gets preferential treatment and has been FORCED to be viable or overpowered while the right mastery tree has been left to waste. DFT, Fervor, Warlords, Stormraiders, TLD, and Windspeakers are all at least balanced if not overpowered. The right side of the mastery tree needs to be addressed again.

46 Comments

dunder killFeb 7, 201723 votes

The only reason you take grasp is if you're playing a champ that legitimately CAN'T use CotC

Yorick DrMundo Garen Olaf Nunu Illaoi Nasus item 3070

Even some of them are just abandoning the tree and going to Stormraiders

AnagsFeb 7, 20172 votes

I feel like grasp is better on Sion right now in lane personally.

NvestmentPlankerFeb 7, 20172 votes

Grasp might be better than CoC on Sion in lane, but CoC during teamfights in much better, and you could even argue that Thunderlords/Stormraiders would be a better option. I've heard of Sion's going Lethality builds and wrecking shit.

Raven RedeemedFeb 8, 20171 votes

I could see thunder lord's and lethality working as a cheesy build, but I think he will run into the same problems of AD J4 top: falls off late game when you can't one shot or when someone doges your spells. At that point Sion will probably die very quickly without defensive items. Sion's greatest asset is a kit designed to set up plays for the team, not himself.

dunder killFeb 8, 20176 votes

but that 1k+ shield on a 4k HP Sion late game though

Raven RedeemedFeb 8, 20172 votes

Grasp is indeed a better option for the lane since the enemy will be stunned when you get a shield from CoC (so it's mostly wasted), but CoC is optimized by champs like Sion during team fights and you probably won't be autoing much during the fights. Plus, CoC is nice for escaping because you get a shield when you stun-and-run.

NvestmentPlankerFeb 7, 20171 votes

pretty much every champ that uses Grasp as their main keystone doesn't get used often and most certainly is NOT meta. I love using Mundo but he is complete ass against the lane bullies that are toplane currently unless he gets his lane camped until he snowballs. Quinn, Jayce, Riven, Camille, Gangplank, Renekton, Maokai, Nautilus, Kennen, Rumble, and Sion are all better picks.

FireDrizzleFeb 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The only reason you take grasp is if you're playing a champ that legitimately CAN'T use CotC

Even some of them are just abandoning the tree and going to Stormraiders

Yorick is better with Warlords bloodlust becasue you heal off your pets. Olaf has a great attack speed steroid so you want fervour not grasp.

dunder killFeb 8, 20171 votes

https://na.op.gg/champion/yorick/statistics/top

Seems they actually have equal winrates

FireDrizzleFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

https://na.op.gg/champion/yorick/statistics/top

Seems they actually have equal winrates But there are only 170 games with warlords bloodlust, is that a releveant sample size?. I would expect people to take warlords more against ranged champs you can't trade with much, which may skew the results. Grasp seems weaker in general vs ranged champs becasue you can benefit from warlords working on the minions.

Glory ln DeathFeb 9, 20171 votes

Across map healing OP.

agbudarFeb 8, 20175 votes

Garen is better of with Thunderlord's especially since his E can proc it piss easy. makes his bullying unbearable. Olaf doesnt fervor or warlords make way more sense anyway? Nunu would probably want Deathfire since he can proc it easily with his snowball.

EedatFeb 8, 20172 votes

Most Garens still take grasp because TLD scales like crap when the only AD you're building is BC

Olaf actually does take fervor I think

Deathfire does practically nothing on tanks, but in the rare instances of full AP Nunu it might work

SH AzykanFeb 8, 20171 votes

even AP Nunu goes stormraiders

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Most Garens still take grasp because TLD scales like crap when the only AD you're building is BC

Olaf actually does take fervor I think

Deathfire does practically nothing on tanks, but in the rare instances of full AP Nunu it might work

most garens take grasp, because they dont know shit about playing the champion, and build the sunfire, cleaver, warmogs rush meme build on him.

his mains know to take stormraider or thunderlord.

Covert Ops GnarFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The only reason you take grasp is if you're playing a champ that legitimately CAN'T use CotC

Even some of them are just abandoning the tree and going to Stormraiders

colossus is still better

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The only reason you take grasp is if you're playing a champ that legitimately CAN'T use CotC

Even some of them are just abandoning the tree and going to Stormraiders

Yorick dft DrMundo grasp Garen stormraider Olaf fervor or warlord Nunu wtf is a nunu? Illaoi dft Nasus stormraider

only 1 single champion on that list takes grasp for the lack of a better keystone.

mind you, even the champions that take grasp dont neccesserily want it. its just the only keystone their kits even synergize with. like what else are you going to take on mundo for example? its not like the keystone is good, its more like a lack of alternatives.

if strength of the ages still existed, mundo would go for that instead with the current state of grasp. so would nunu.

TrestaniFeb 8, 20173 votes

You take stormraiders on Mundo now

Pale PirateFeb 8, 20173 votes

dft

https://media.tenor.co/images/88fdc9139083c7987bb2dd2dbe41afc7/raw

Seriously, it's stormraiders (preferred) or grasp.

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=0 oxros piratis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P02aLfs4,comment-id=000000050001,timestamp=2017-02-08T15:48:23.152+0000)

https://media.tenor.co/images/88fdc9139083c7987bb2dd2dbe41afc7/raw

Seriously, it's stormraiders (preferred) or grasp.

http://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi

look at the highest win % masteries. right... IM the noob.

dft has been the strongest keystone on her for more than a year now.

what the fuck is stormraider going to do for her? illaoi doesnt want to chase people out of her tentacle area. she engages on as many people as possible and then fights mostly stationary.

Pale PirateFeb 8, 20171 votes

The win ratio is still only 48.5%, and champion.gg isn't very reliable either. Very small sample too. Stormraider's is the preferred option in high elo, and all lcs games with Illaoi had stormraider's. It gives you the option to abandon a fight and it helps if you get in the situation where you need to kite backwards or around. Lastly, the cunning tree reflects her early game power.

EuthenaasiaFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P02aLfs4,comment-id=0000000500010000,timestamp=2017-02-08T17:24:38.306+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi

look at the highest win % masteries. right... IM the noob.

dft has been the strongest keystone on her for more than a year now.

what the fuck is stormraider going to do for her? illaoi doesnt want to chase people out of her tentacle area. she engages on as many people as possible and then fights mostly stationary.

I'm going to have to agree it's stormraider on illaoi.

ArazhelFeb 8, 20171 votes

Can you shed some light on stormraider Garen ?

I've tested it before but it feels like Garen's biggest issue is reaching someone, but once I get there I usually stick. Or do you prefer it for better teamfight mobility or disengage after trading etc?

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Can you shed some light on stormraider ?

I've tested it before but it feels like Garen's biggest issue is reaching someone, but once I get there I usually stick. Or do you prefer it for better teamfight mobility or disengage after trading etc?

q max on garen has become the standart for quite a while. simply because his spin deals so little damage early on, and scales with champion level more than rank.

his deals q the same damage as a full spin, only frontloaded in most situations. it scales in utility with rank, and after the addition of the armor shed to his e, it became even better to make use of the enemies reduced armor.

with all that in mind, stormraider is great early on for lane trades, where you go in with auto attack + q and then retreat with the movement speed buff.

later on on the game is much more useful than, say grasp.

it helps you stick through slows when you get in enemy melee range, and ive even had situations where i was stuck between 3 enemies, ulted one of them and then just ran the fuck out with the stormraider buff.

ArazhelFeb 9, 20171 votes

Ah thank you. I usually run thunderlords since it's relatively easy to proc and adds a decent amount of damage (after a few levels at least), but I'll do some experimentation with stormraider.

If I can reliably proc it with AA > Q I might use that instead of TLD depending on the situation. Late-game SRS seems more useful, I used TLD mostly to compensate for taking tp/ghost instead of ignite, but since I moved back to ignite I may no longer need it.

GudLunchHavFriesFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The only reason you take grasp is if you're playing a champ that legitimately CAN'T use CotC

Even some of them are just abandoning the tree and going to Stormraiders

Actually, as an avid Yorick player myself, his w, if the edge of the wall is placed on top of somebody INSTEAD of trapping them in the wall, its a slight displacement, and as such procs CotC Course that means to proc it you have to change the way you use your w, and its honestly kind of awful. Just wanted to correct you on that. Yorick CAN use CotC, its possible to proc it, its just so situational and awful other keystones are just better.

Sorry if this comments is kind of petty. I'm a sucker for taking things literally, so I had to step in. I apologize of this comment annoys anybody.

TLDR Yorick CAN use CotC, but even so its a bad choice on him specifically.

Glory ln DeathFeb 9, 20171 votes

Super useful for stopping teleport (and Shen ults). Half the time, they don't even try to hide what they're doing since "Yorick can't stop me, lol!"

GudLunchHavFriesFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P02aLfs4,comment-id=000000060000,timestamp=2017-02-09T17:52:02.372+0000)

Super useful for stopping teleport (and Shen ults). Half the time, they don't even try to hide what they're doing since "Yorick can't stop me, lol!"

OOOoh, I never thought of it like that. Good thinking. :D

Also I think this is the first time a popular boards user responded to a comment I made. I feel so honored. :OOOOOOO

I hope you and whoever is reading this has a gr8 day n stuff. My name is a acronym for a reason. XD

SpoofghoulFeb 8, 20171 votes

why on earth would you want grasp on yorick when warlords is better then 15 grasps combined

i mean his ghouls do work with lifesteal

SzGamer227Feb 8, 20172 votes

Grasp is kinda decent early game, and very underwhelming late game (60 health every 4 seconds with 4000 health, and only if you can land auto attacks reliably... base health regen is a better source of sustain and it works out of combat). Colossus is nigh on useless earlygame and good late game (used to be exceptional but now it's more in line).

So basically, if you want a better laning phase, you take Grasp and try to snowball off of an early lead. Other than that, you always take CotC for the late game power unless you can't inflict hard cc when the need arises.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Grasp is kinda decent early game, and very underwhelming late game (60 health every 4 seconds with 4000 health, and only if you can land auto attacks reliably... base health regen is a better source of sustain and it works out of combat). Colossus is nigh on useless earlygame and good late game (used to be exceptional but now it's more in line).

So basically, if you want a better laning phase, you take Grasp and try to snowball off of an early lead. Other than that, you always take CotC for the late game power unless you can't inflict hard cc when the need arises.

Grasp feels horrific. I feel sorry for tanks who are forced to take it because they need the legendary guardian or tenacity mastery keynote.

Fighters and tanky juggernauts that used to like grasp are finding more success just going something like fervor or tld or stormraiders which can be just as good if not way better early game anyways, and also have better scale, way better scale.

SzGamer227Feb 8, 20171 votes

I definitely feel ya. Illaoi's choice in keystones is pretty awful because she needs 18 points in Resolve for the Tenacity, but the only viable keystone is Grasp, which doesn't work well on an AD caster who deals most of her damage with tentacles. It's to the point where people are taking Stormraider's and Deathfire over Grasp even though she's an immobile juggernaut that needs to avoid cc to survive.

I'm a Darius main, so I'm glad that I at least get a choice in the matter even if I am stuck taking an 18 point Resolve tree.

General Esdeath Feb 8, 20172 votes

Because Grasp is only good for wet noodle fights like Malphite vs DrMundo

Proxy345Feb 7, 20171 votes

Grasp is good for champs that use AA enhancements and don't have instant CC,or that do have CC but its on a long ult cooldown. Its good for lane MonkeyKing since he has no sustain and can abuse it very well without being touched. All he has to do is E+Q.

NvestmentPlankerFeb 7, 20173 votes

But no Wukong will opt to use Grasp over CoC, Thunderlords, Stormraiders, or even Fervor. All of those Keystones are better on him. Thunderlords is obvious considering he has quick burst, Stormraiders due to his burst combo nature, CoC due to his ult in teamfights, and even Fervor is better because of his AS buff on E plus the stacks from Q and even ult. Grasp isn't optimal on hardly any champ. If it is optimal on a champ, chances are you rarely see that champ played.

SanKakUFeb 8, 20171 votes

I only play Wukong Support and I don't use Grasp or Courage, I use Bond. Works fine for me. I tried other keystones on him but didn't like them.

agbudarFeb 8, 20171 votes

grasp has been nerfed 3 times i believe.

SanKakUFeb 8, 20171 votes

There isn't a keystone I can't appreciate. If there was one, it would be Bloodlust rather than Grasp. Grasp adds damage while Bloodlust does not. I don't see why you'd compare Courage to Grasp. They are intending to do completely different things. Also, Courage is one of those cooldown keystones, like Decree and Surge. Considering all 3 cooldown keystones do completely different things, I don't get why you'd compare any of them to any other keystone.

Of course, I still find these pro Courage threads incredibly obnoxious considering that Courage is my least-used keystone. I use it on....maybe Udyr...haven't been playing him...and that's about it. Maybe I'll try using it on Warwick.

13900 EssenceFeb 8, 20171 votes

They are comparing courage to grasp because tanks always used to take grasp/strength of the ages, but now that strength doesn't exist and grasp is quite possibly one of the least efficient keystones right now, courage is a must-have on tanks with cc.

I even still see nunus that bring it just so they can pop the satchel charge plants in the jungle and get it.

SanKakUFeb 8, 20171 votes

Wow, I hadn't thought of using the plant to get the Courage. I'm actually thinking maybe Warwick can't get it with his suppression.

13900 EssenceFeb 8, 20171 votes

When I play warwick I take it anyways. I feel like building tank is the best way to go for him since he already has damage reduction in his kit without resistances, but if you stack resistances and a courage shield on top of that he gets really annoying.

Building attack speed/damage you output loads of damage, but he just gets popped really fast.

13900 EssenceFeb 8, 20171 votes

I miss when I could take grasp on gangplank for sustain. Now I'm stuck taking thunderlord's which falls off late game anyways, and doesn't really help my laning. It just helps when I ult other places on the map.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 8, 20171 votes

I would probably argue that Grasp isn't weak, Courage of the Colossus is just OP. Grasp feels too situational, Colossus is just so much more well-rounded.

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I would probably argue that Grasp isn't weak, Courage of the Colossus is just OP. Grasp feels too situational, Colossus is just so much more well-rounded.

actually grasp is the more generalistic mastery. it works on more champions than coc which only a handful of chosen ones with hard cc can take.

still grasp is absolutely terrible, because it adds nothing but a bit of mediocre damage, and the sustain is laughable.

id actually favour the mastery if it did add noticable sustain instead of damage.