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Over the years, we have less and less choices and freedom in the game.

Sujiren··97 votes·3,876 views

I have been playing this game since season 3. A lot of champion reworks happened since then, and one pattern I noticed is that every reworked champion is forced into fullfilling one particular role, and is not allowed to do anything else. Example, old master yi could be played ad or ap both builds being fun post rework only the ad build is viable, same thing happened to many other reworked champions, like Sion, Poppy, Galio, Gangplank. Reworks effectively destroyed half of their kits.

Now this rune change is coming. It's cool that there will be more keystones, but at the same time you are taking away our options to customize our champions. What about movement speed quints Hecarim? A full armor rune page for Malphite? A full lethality rune page assasin? Sure why not, becaus we, choose how we want to play our champions.

Part of the games fun was how every single game could be played in so many different ways, from builds, to runes and masteries. to champions, to summoners using them.

If the game is about choices, why are we loosing them over the years?

101 Comments

Crede77740 votes

Originally, Riot rejected implementing a system with dedicated roles because they wanted players to be able to choose how to play the game. Want 2 junglers? Great. Want to go three people mid? Awesome.

However, it became obvious that the meta of 1 top, 1 mid, 1 jungler, 1 adc, and 1 support was by far the most consistently competitive and efficient choice.

So now there is the queue system where you select your preferred roles and it slots you accordingly.

With runes and masteries, they're doing away with choice because again players identified the most effective combinations. To quote a Rioter about the current state of Malzahar, if you aren't taking death fire touch on him, you're just "playing him wrong." This is true. If you don't spec 18-12-0 on Malz with DFT as your keystone, you are at a significant disadvantage.

With well over 100 champs to choose from, it's natural that they get pigeonholed into doing one thing well. This makes balancing much simpler and even across the board.

RIP Tahm Kench2 votes

About the enforcement of a 1-1-2-jungle meta, let me just describe a ranked game I had recently where a duo mid/jungle tried to break the meta.

It was Mordekaiser jungle and Leona mid, they started out the match with Morde doing a simple red to blue clear. Afterwards once they were both level 2, they tried to invade me (as Aatrox) at my red. I was level 3 because I was doing a full clear, and my mid laner came and we got a double kill.

After that, they tried doing a series of 3v1 ganks and seiging at top. They pushed into the tower and were promptly destroyed by me and mid out leveling them and ganking from the side.

Basically, in trying to do a leo mid roam and a Morde jungle and cover for each other's weaknesses, they were both left under leveled. We would have crushed them in 20 minutes, but on our team was an Ezreal who picked terrible fights, chased, and wouldn't group; and he dragged the game out to 35 minutes.

Dr Poro6 votes

Well that's just one game and an example of bad performance. The tactic isn't doomed to fail. If your first roams are successful, you can snowball incredibly. But yes, they are less likely to succeed. That's why it's not meta. I think when you play with randoms, it's better to follow the meta. It feels bad to lose the game due to 2 players trying out some random stuff. Keep those shenanigans for 5v5 premade.

KoKoboto32 votes

The new rune system is a huge upgrade. I think the amount of variety in the new runes outweighs or at least is equivalent to the old rune system. You can't go full out into one stat as hard anymore but you can do other things like reduce ultimate by potential 20%, overcap on CDR while still being efficient, get a ton of item CDR, go into debt, and other stuff. Biggest point is that the pages aren't so cut and paste anymore. I easily see numerous builds for supports and etc aside from the same 0/18/12.

They haven't showed all the runes yet as well, maybe you'll be able to get a a bunch of lethality and armor or stuff. Maybe they'll add a gold gain one.

We have pseudo gold ones with magic boots and store credit. There's a potential 50 out of combat movement speed rune as well.

Glory ln Death5 votes

{quoted}

You can't go full out into one stat as hard anymore but you can do other things like... go into debt, and other stuff.

Sweet. I love going into debt!

Spice POWAH2 votes

Debt: The pinnacle of fun experiences. : ^)

I Main Swain4 votes

see i dont like that, i loved the simplicity of the old rune system and how straightforward and binary it was. when you introduce as much complexity into the game as the new runes are (especially considering there are semi forced paths) there will always be clear dominant choices that enormously impact the game. long story short, if you ask me its going to become just one more balancing pain in the neck. part of why i love the simplicity so much is the same reason i love minecraft so much. look at minecraft its so blocky and ugly and basic, and BECAUSE of that you can do so much fun crap that if they tried to make it prettier and more complicated would be harder and harder to implement. honestly i think its going to be something that everyone is just always going to disagree on. there will always be the people who like the shinier and more specific runes and there will always be people like me who love the old simple and reliable runes.

LordGeovanni1 votes

most of that stuff is in inspiration where you trade damge to do crazy shit like lux having a 13 second super long range 500 base damage with 100% (though i think its 120%) ap scaling basic skill. oh aoe not to mention the passive interaction.

KoKoboto1 votes

Well you can actually go into Domination / Sorcery / Inspiration and maybe Precision once we see more of it's key stones runes. So I would not say most of that stuff is in Inspiration, if that were the case the new rune system would not be as great.

Domination| Blood Moon's Call / Stormlord's Mandate Sorcery | Meteor / Spellslinger's Surge Inspiration| Summoner Specialist / Hextech Freezer Ray

Depending on play style and the game I see all of these choices being viable.

voidterror116 votes

You're honestly pretty stupid if you think AP Yi was removed because Riot wanted to limit choices.

LordGeovanni1 votes

i didnt fight this ap yi but there was an ap yi build that focused on his w healing that isnt good anymore

Slack King13 votes

AP yi was either complete cancer or trash. AP trynd is either cancer or trash. AP tristana was just cancer Tank ekko was so fun to play against right? Tank Fizz was so much fun, glad we have choices. Man I remember tank Katarina, that was some fun stuff right there.

This game isnt about choices, its impossible to balance a champion around being able to build them anyway you wish and succeed.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slack King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Oxy3B3LM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-09-14T18:56:09.349+0000)

AP yi was either complete cancer or trash. AP trynd is either cancer or trash. AP tristana was just cancer Tank ekko was so fun to play against right? Tank Fizz was so much fun, glad we have choices. Man I remember tank Katarina, that was some fun stuff right there.

This game isnt about choices, its impossible to balance a champion around being able to build them anyway you wish and succeed.

You're talking about all-AP builds on AD champions. Of course they're wonky and imbalanced! There are many other builds for them besides that one that are actually creative and interesting. Sorry, I mean were.

Por ejemplo: many seasons ago you could build multiple tank items on Tryn and Yi and be moderately successful. Heck, you could build NO crit items and still pull it off. OP's saying you can be much less creative with builds now; I wouldn't say AP yi, tryn, trist etc. fits in that category of "creativity" so much as "taking the wins and running".

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Thing is, Tryn and Yi not building their normal squishy selves, is negating a huge point of their design, and counterplay. CC the Master Yi doesn't mean shit when he's building like a Tanky diver, and not the Skirmisher he is. Tank Yi, aka Titantic Hydra Yi, was not healthy design.

LordGeovanni1 votes

and thats fine but dont nerf what people found to be viable and worked to make viable into being straight up unviable like in the case of tank ekko (which is actually bruiser ekko which was one of his intended in design build options although not ad bruiser but an ap version of ad bruiser like dianna used to have the option to.) tank ekko was broken but ap ekko was broken also all because his 3 hit passive had too much base damage and a slow for no reason when he already had a slow on his q.

SzGamer22712 votes

You've been choosing base stats for your champion. Now you're going to be choosing multiple keystone-strength buffs and one super powerful buff that makes current keystones look weak by comparison. You're not going to be able to say "I want lots of extra base movement speed on Hecarim" but you are going to be able to say "these runes are gonna be really great for running people down at maximum possible speed as Hecarim".

Glory ln Death4 votes

Like a 15 second Ghost on your boots with a fairly low cooldown and no build-up requirement. Which also gives you bonus damage to your next attack or spell on a champion.

SzGamer2273 votes

And a free pair of Boots at 10 minutes that also gives you 10 additional MS.

If you had plans for playing full movespeed Cass though, you might might have an issue. [cass-cry]

LordGeovanni1 votes

you gave me visions of Jax being good again and of old sion with botrk atamas 3x120ap sion

i cant move wtf1 votes

I know, it sickens me that Riot is giving us this many interesting and impactful choices.

Glory ln Death11 votes

Uuuuummmmmm.....

Sion Viable in Top, Support, Mid, Jungle. Tank builds, AD/Lethality builds, AD/Crit builds, AP builds, Enchanter support builds, etc.

Yeah, no. Sion is definitely not pigeonholed into one role or playstyle.

Madsin253 votes

As a avid lover of AD sion it is true he is viable either tank or AD/lethality. However this is bound to change any day with how the game is going.

His AP has not been that great since the abyssal sceptre was changed. His crit build is hilarious looking but is just garbage compared to lethality.

LordGeovanni1 votes

if viable means you can play it but its troll yea he is viable in all those stuff and not just as a tank who spams his q.

2Charmnot2Charm8 votes

old master yi could be played ad or ap both builds

I miss being deleted by his 100% ap ratio alpha strike when i was new to the game, same with ap trist lets bring those two back into the game please /s.

AleksaTeemo3 votes

Dont act like they didnt have counterplay.And you gotta admit it was fun.

TzQGRUST397 votes

Their counter play was to not let them survive past 10 minutes lol.

AleksaTeemo2 votes
  1. Make sure she can't kill you pre-6. I played AP trist a lot, and i know that if they let you get a few too many auto's off after each E, then a simple W E ignite + autos combos was devastating .
  2. Rush early magic resistance. Tristana is a 1 trick pony, if she can't 1 shot you, she has nothing left.
  3. Perhaps start flask, to negate her E damage.
  4. Consider stacking 2-3 dorans for the health
  5. Orianna is a very good counter to trist, if trist presses E, you press E too, and you soak up the damage. Trist E 13 sec cd. Ori E 5

Most important tip: Ap tristana is all about the laning phase, in teamfights she is borderline useless. She relies on her jump to do damage, as a simple DFG E ulti combo is unlikely to kill the adc. If she decides to jump into the team, the jump is slow and clunky and she can probably be bursted down before she even gets the combo off. Poke comps are extremely effective against ap tristana.This was basicaly the counter to ap tristana.

1374342 votes

You are talking about post rework AP Trist (which is manageable/weak and hence why no one plays her AP anymore). Old AP Tristana was strong and annoying because she had a point and click DoT that applied grievous wounds with good base damage and 100% AP scaling, along with her ult nuke that had 150% AP scaling versus today's 100%.

Poke comps were not super effective against old AP trist, as she could just whittle you down with her E (the aforementioned DoT) that you could only dodge by staying out of her range. You wanted all in teams against old AP trist.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

That does not make sense.Ap tristana(and tristana in general) is very good against all in team comps duo to her W being the longest jump in the game+its a reset.And no,i was talking about the AP tristana that everyone was complaining about.The one who really deserved the hate was ap lulu,she was the lane bully+extremly strong in the mid game and in the late game while she falls off she still has utility.

ArtumisPrime1 votes

Except for the fact that you were talking about getting AAs in with her E, which is a new Trist thing. The old one didn't have that mechanic at all. I question whether you even played old Trist.

AleksaTeemo1 votes

Um,no.I was talking about the reset when she kills enemy champion or gets assist.Ik her E got reworked.

Bârd8 votes

Sion still has multiple playstyles.

Tank is the normal one.

Full AD is pretty sick.

AP is pretty great in the laning phase, but it's pretty dead otherwise.

Gangplank be real: old GP didn't have multiple "Viable" builds. He had one build that was OK and a thousand meme builds.

He was so utterly garbage that he was pretty much useless no matter what you built. AP GP, Tankplank, Manahoy, none these builds were actually good, it's just that it was funny to be useless in different ways.

Automated Riven5 votes

Crit plank was always viable. Or at least as viable as it ever was. It came in and out of favor like everything else.

Bârd3 votes

Yeah, but it was the only Viable build he'd ever had, with the exception "Tiamat GP", but that was kinda just cheese.

4th3t0s3 votes

{quoted}

He had one build that was K and a thousand meme builds.

ftfy

Blåbæret6 votes

This is called streamlining the game. It's one of Ghostcrawler's core design philosophies which he has started to implement into League.

Every time I make a thread about it, I get downvoted. So ya, enjoy the destruction of once a great game with GC steering the wheel.

Spank the Fox9 votes

Game was already like this before GC.

Blåbæret1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Oxy3B3LM,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2017-09-14T21:48:01.179+0000)

Game was already like this before GC.

Whatever you tell yourself to sleep at night, buddy.

I Main Swain5 votes

ive been so confused ever since they started doing all the jungle changes in season 4 and all the other stuff theyve done since to "increase diversity" because literally all of it has really just reduced it. less champions are viable in each role, off meta stuff is 100X harder to pull off than it was when i started, and all the reworks seem to be taking this simple, straight forward kits that because of their simplicity have a lot of different ways you can play and making them much more complicated and thusly making their potential play and build paths more narrow. take the rune and mastery changes for example. both of those they said were for the sake of diversity and yet they literally require you to do them in specific ways. yes there were ways before that were clearly the best but heck if i wanted to i could build my rune and mastery pages however i wanted. im going to miss going full ap runes on veigar just because i freaking want to.

SzGamer2274 votes

First, before you say that fewer champs are viable in the jungle, keep in mind that we just had an emergence of Ezreal jungle.

Second, simple champs actually don't have a lot to ways to play. For example, the only way you can play a 100% auto attack reliant champ is to decide when and who you run up to and auto attack.

Third, you're trading base stat customization for a system that consists solely of high-impact runes that are all more or less as powerful as present keystones are. You're not going to pick and choose exact numbers of bonus stats, but overall there is going more impact on gameplay and customization.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

keep in mind that we just had an emergence of Ezreal jungle.

Yet the moment that a mage gets taken botlane, ADCs get sweeping buffs to make sure that they're always optimal.

Madsin253 votes

I agree. The tank rework destroyed all of their ap builds and cemented them into being tanks.

AP varus, AP kog, AP MF I believe are the only decent "AP option" champs left and i'm expecting them to get gutted anyday now to solely AD.

They are even destroying AP malph here soon.

Automated Riven4 votes

I agree. Except that ap varus is the only one of those three that isn't utter trash. And he is still trash.

Melledoneus3 votes

There isn't even a good major rune for Shen.

Yet.

Shuyin1782 votes

Grasp is a nice rune for him because it gives him sustain and a bit more duel potential.

Glory ln Death1 votes

And is AOE.

VasilisGreen3 votes

Everything done to this game after season 5 is stupid. But what can we do about it?

Titanium704 votes

amen!

Season5 was - for me - before the juggernaust walked right over the meta the best state League ever had. (playing since Season 2) Build and Champ diversity was at its peak back than teamfights were actual fights and both early and lategame champs were completely viable! Loved it.

GigglesO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=2 Lazy 2 Type,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Oxy3B3LM,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-14T13:58:17.782+0000)

I have been playing this game since season 3. A lot of champion reworks happened since then, and one pattern I noticed is that every reworked champion is forced into fullfilling one particular role, and is not allowed to do anything else.

I'm still trying to figure out why post rework morde has basically the lowest base hp/armor in the game...

4th3t0s3 votes

His passive and the sustain added to his w. Having played him a lot, I appreciate the gimmick, but it becomes just another stat check issue when having to lane against him, I'm talking pre-rework Yorick levels of bad. I mean, at least Yorick is gated by mana.

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