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Assassin Discussion

lolipopevelynn··8 votes·1,829 views

by heart i am an assassin player, so i am kinda looking forward to the day riot finally straightens this class out a bit like they did with juggernauts and ADCs. it should also be the day they FINALLY do something about stealth since if a champ has stealth then it usually means that champ is an assassin, and quite a few assassins have stealth.

since riot has stated that they wont get around to looking at assassins as a whole until mid or late 2016 i think we have plenty of time to actually give feed back on what a particular assassin may need and how badly they may need help (Khazix ) so that when it comes time for riot to work on the class they might get an idea of what we would want and perhaps prevent another needless butchering of a champion that no one really wanted( Mordekaiser) its a long shot since riot does w/e they want nowadays, but we do know they read, communicate, and listen to the community more so than any other game company aside from blizzard. infact i think they are may be more active at communication than even blizzard.

anyway, here is a list for all of the champions that the community views is an assassin.

Akali Elise Evelynn Katarina Kassadin Khazix Leblanc Shaco Fizz Zed Ekko Talon Rengar

from that list the ones that need to be worked on the most in terms of kit work are

Akali Khazix Shaco Evelynn Talon

i cant speak for all of these champions and say what they individually need or do not need, but ultimately it would all lead to a debate of "what is an assassin in LoL?". is an assassin a champion that goes full glass canon mode and blows up an ADC? if thats the case then any champion can do this.. its not exactly a hard thing to blow up an ADC or another squishy target. even full tanks that build zero damage items can do this nowadays, its not difficult. if its simply to blow up a squishy target and get out then does that make Diana LeeSin Jax assassins? do they HAVE to be glass canon in order to separate a Darius from a Shaco when it comes to blowing up said squishy target? or can assassins blow up ANY target, regardless of how tanky or squishy they might be, at the risk of there own life? Maybe an assassin can be champion that is like "hey, fuck you, i want you to die and i want you to die now and i dont care how much armor or HP you have. i may die in the process, but you sure as hell will die with me". i think that would certainly separate them from most champs, but would probably cause a ton of balance issues.

so what is an assassin in this game or what CAN an assassin be in this game? i think at the end of the day an assassin should be ALOT more than just pure damage. Ekko Zed are good examples. Ekko in particular brings alot more utility to the role than just damage and focuses on locking someone down and reversing time to kill a target. Shaco is champ that has alot of potential to kill a target not by damage, but purely outplaying someone with his clone, boxes, and Q. his kit could be fleshed out to reflect that more maybe. and then there are still assassins that focuses purely on damage to kill a target and nothing else such as Talon . his kit has alot of damage amplifications, but all nerfed to a point that its kind of does nothing, especially his passive.

so thats all i have to say on it for now. maybe other assassin mains can talk about what they feel makes an assassin an assassin.

27 Comments

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

Talon could really use some help out of all the other assassins he can't get out lol.the only other assassin that can't get out once going in is Akali and Rengar but rengar is on some other level honestly as he is much tankier than the other two.the only way talon and akali can get out is if they kill everyone close to them but because of that they get nerfed most of the time but mostly akali is the one getting nerfed.also i never understood why riot doesn't let talon ward hop with cut throat but thinks its ok for jax kat and lee sin to be able to, especially letting lee sin ward hop.talon was in a good spot with his silence because it gave you a reason to pick him besides Zed but then riot removed that. so now it's just better to pick zed over talon because unlike talon zed doesn't have to worry about mana and can have good clear and be able to escape almost anything with shadow and have an ult that's almost perfect for assassinations.

DonutChan2 votes

{quoted}

Talon could really use some help out of all the other assassins he can't get out lol.the only other assassin that can't get out once going in is Akali and Rengar but rengar is on some other level honestly as he is much tankier than the other two.the only way talon and akali can get out is if they kill everyone close to them but because of that they get nerfed most of the time but mostly akali is the one getting nerfed.also i never understood why riot doesn't let talon ward hop with cut throat but thinks its ok for jax kat and lee sin to be able to, especially letting lee sin ward hop.talon was in a good spot with his silence because it gave you a reason to pick him besides Zed be then riot removed that. so now it's just better to pick zed over talon because unlike talon zed doesn't have to worry about mana and can have good clear and be able to escape almost anything with shadow and have an ult that's almost perfect for assassinations.

This guy gets it

N3mO062 votes

{quoted}

Talon could really use some help out of all the other assassins he can't get out lol.the only other assassin that can't get out once going in is Akali and Rengar but rengar is on some other level honestly as he is much tankier than the other two.the only way talon and akali can get out is if they kill everyone close to them but because of that they get nerfed most of the time but mostly akali is the one getting nerfed.also i never understood why riot doesn't let talon ward hop with cut throat but thinks its ok for jax kat and lee sin to be able to, especially letting lee sin ward hop.talon was in a good spot with his silence because it gave you a reason to pick him besides Zed be then riot removed that. so now it's just better to pick zed over talon because unlike talon zed doesn't have to worry about mana and can have good clear and be able to escape almost anything with shadow and have an ult that's almost perfect for assassinations.

Rengar is tankier then talon because Rengar can just all-in using an ultimate of 150-120.70 sec, while talon has a garanteed close-gap/blink ( which is better and less counterable then a jump/dash) and an instant stealth Ultimate of 75-65-55 sec which can be used to escape after the kill.

Talon is quite good in this moment, one with the highest winrate between all ad assassins

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

wait but talon has lower pick rates then the other assassins lol as ive seen on Champion GG that means the only people who play talon are his mains

Troll for Trump1 votes

Talon is more fun to play then zed, I guess.. ESPECIALLY when he had silence. It felt way better to be like something from Assassin's Creed.

XeroKimo1 votes

He can't get out? Clearly he can, even if it means not killing the person you were about to go all in. That ult gives quite the movement speed and normally you'd have yomuu's too, if you're running storm raider, doing E AA Q R combo should be more than enough damage to proc storm raider's movement speed which farther increases the movement speed for escape purposes.

Also you can do an E AA Q W R if you want to use all your skills since I'm sure some people do E AA Q R W, but either way, Talon can get out.

If it's not in battle you're talking about, burning your ult isn't that much of a problem if you need to escape, I mean it's like on a 80 sec cooldown or so at level 1, and people obviously goes for cdr on him so by level 3 it should be like 36 sec cd or so

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

he needs the ult for damage its a waist all be it maybe worth it to live. most assassins have escapes that aren't tied to ults or have shorter cooldowns Katarina Leblanc Zed FizzKhazix and then there is lee sin that can do a lot of damage and have extremely good mobility have escapes that aren't on their ults and then Ahri who similar to talon and Akali Rengar KassadinDiana(diana is close enough to be an assassin) relies on her ult to have mobility but the thing is she has her range charm and true damage plus a speed buff and i would like to stress this but even if talon's ult is useful it's but still on a pretty decent cd compared to these people talon is good but he has too few tools to work with like the other assassins and his pool of tools got reduced by 1 ever since riot removed his silence

XeroKimo1 votes

Well I'm sure when I said when you're about to all in, you can E AA Q R. But I guess I never clarified that, just stay invisible while using R, if you have storm raiders, and I'm sure if you have yommuu's and popped it while going in, you should have a good amount of movement speed to get distance out of there, even if it's meaning you didn't get the kill on the person you're about to all in.

In the case you are planning to burn all your cd's in the all in, since I'm sure most people do E AA Q R W as it's faster to use all his skills in that order, you can switch it around to E AA Q W R, even if it means you have much longer time of being vulnerable.

And since you mentioned akali and Diana(Diana was primary assassin when she was released, and you can still very well play her like one)Those are the assassin that have basically no escape tool, they can only buy time to get allies to save them if they are close enough.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Talon could really use some help out of all the other assassins he can't get out lol.the only other assassin that can't get out once going in is Akali and Rengar but rengar is on some other level honestly as he is much tankier than the other two.the only way talon and akali can get out is if they kill everyone close to them but because of that they get nerfed most of the time but mostly akali is the one getting nerfed.also i never understood why riot doesn't let talon ward hop with cut throat but thinks its ok for jax kat and lee sin to be able to, especially letting lee sin ward hop.talon was in a good spot with his silence because it gave you a reason to pick him besides Zed be then riot removed that. so now it's just better to pick zed over talon because unlike talon zed doesn't have to worry about mana and can have good clear and be able to escape almost anything with shadow and have an ult that's almost perfect for assassinations.

i think champs like talon and akali are left the way they are because of there cloak. rengar has been a balance pain for a very long time now because of his stealth, tankiness, and damage. he has been a fighter, a brusier, an assassin, a tank... he also needs to be solidified imo.

but really what needs to happen is riot doing something about stealth in general. stealth really limits a champions potential by a large margin in this game. Evelynn being a prime example.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

for ev i think its a little different riot has no fuckin idea what they want ev to be.she has a patchwork kit with some themes that don't work together.like her Q she uses for DPS and an ult that makes her tanky lolz like what?she is an AP assassin but now her ap got gutted and her ad was allowed to live on.her ultimate makes no fucking sense on an assassin champion and why does she have an ability that's focused on DPS in the form of hate spikes.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

for ev i think its a little different riot has no fuckin idea what they want ev to be.she has a patchwork kit with some themes that don't work together.like her Q she uses for DPS and an ult that makes her tanky lolz like what?she is an AP assassin but now her ap got gutted and her ad was allowed to live on.her ultimate makes no fucking sense on an assassin champion and why does she have an ability that's focused on DPS in the form of hate spikes.

ya i think if they truly want eve to work as an assassin they need to rework her ult into something entirely different, maybe eve try to incoperate her passive into said new ult and also rework her passive.

Troy2426213 votes

Shaco is honestly fine as is. He has an extremely unique concept, a very unique playstyle and an incredibly devoted fanbase. He does what he does and he does it well, has counterplay and is a blast to play.

Also, he has a TREMENDOUS amount of damage, I don't know what you're talking about. He even has a flat % damage boost..

AyRe CoNteMpT3 votes

well i feel like the trait of being an assassin doesnt come with the ability to build full glass cannon to have enough damage to kill a squishy but it comes with the ability to reliably get to said squishy and deal your damage. all assassins have one thing in common and that is them being very hard to run away from while being exceptionally good at running away. assassins are characters that are naturally weaker (lower stats) but are fast and have high damage (-combos) to punish people who step out of line.

in short, their role is to punish mistakes. if you play perfectly against a perfectly playing assassin, you should (must) win 100% of the time because you dont step out of line and you are naturally stronger, but if you make a mistake you will instantly get punished for it.

this means, assassins are naturally hard to balance because how much weaker do they need to be and how strong does their punishing-ability need to be so they can punish strong but will loose if they dont.

that being said, i feel like assassins are in a very good spot right now IN GENERAL but many specific assassin champions are too weird of a mix between an assassin and something else so that it becomes impossible to balance them to a satisfying degree.

i would say rework half of all assassin-champions to be no assassins anymore and solidify the other halfs assassin-identity.

PS: the most beautifully designed assassin in the game is talon. he is a true assassin and he truly has all the weaknesses and strengths an assassin should have.

DonutChan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwFlXYzE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-06T18:32:06.731+0000)

all assassins have one thing in common and that is them being very hard to run away from while being exceptionally good at running away. Talon item 3070

in short, their role is to punish mistakes. if you play perfectly against a perfectly playing assassin, you should (must) win 100% of the time because you dont step out of line and you are naturally stronger, but if you make a mistake you will instantly get punished for it.

this means, assassins are naturally hard to balance because how much weaker do they need to be and how strong does their punishing-ability need to be so they can punish strong but will loose if they dont. Zed Zed

PS: the most beautifully designed assassin in the game is talon. he is a true assassin and he truly has all the weaknesses and strengths an assassin should have.

Maybe in Theme but in practice he generally Talon just gets pinkwarded and CCed into the ground after being camped early game because of his One-way-in style of attacking

Side Note: Whenever I see a Talon in ranked I instantly lock in Vi and just camp the shit out of him. There is basically nothing he can do since I pink his bush and just wait.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

the playstyle of assassins is, if played by noobs, very predictable (everyone below faker is a noob probably, when it comes to this).

it must be or they would literally have no counterplay. the strongest assassin in the game is probably rengar because he is the only real scaling assassin who doesnt rely on cheesing early on. aside from his kit and style of assassination being very boring to me, he is pretty well designed from his playstyle alone.

well, this is just how assassins work always. there is no middle ground or perfect balance to them because they are not supposed to be on equal footing. they dont win through strength but through deception. deception doesnt mean pressing one button and becoming invisible, it literally means using your brain to win.

since that is not a viable concept in the league community, assassins will never be successfull in soloQ unless very overpowered. basically you can say if an assassins winrate is between 45-49%, thats very balanced.

Best KhaZix Void1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwFlXYzE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-06T22:22:51.225+0000)

the playstyle of assassins is, if played by noobs, very predictable (everyone below faker is a noob probably, when it comes to this).

it must be or they would literally have no counterplay. the strongest assassin in the game is probably rengar because he is the only real scaling assassin who doesnt rely on cheesing early on. aside from his kit and style of assassination being very boring to me, he is pretty well designed from his playstyle alone.

well, this is just how assassins work always. there is no middle ground or perfect balance to them because they are not supposed to be on equal footing. they dont win through strength but through deception. deception doesnt mean pressing one button and becoming invisible, it literally means using your brain to win.

since that is not a viable concept in the league community, assassins will never be successfull in soloQ unless very overpowered. basically you can say if an assassins winrate is between 45-49%, thats very balanced.

the only time this is true is when the assassin is horribly designed. There are several assassin kits in this game that demonstrate a form of counterplay that's beyond stat sticking people to death.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

thanks for your explanation. now i understand everything.

DonutChan2 votes

I feel that Talon has very limited options against a player of equal skill level. Even fewer if they choose to do the smart thing and just rush an hourglass.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

im all for clarifying classes, good post

identifying types of sub-classes would be a good start, that is my suggestion to you

figure out the different ways that assassins do what they do best, and place them into categories like hour Riot did with the Juggernauts

Llanite1 votes

They have the speed and mobility to catch up with those silly mages/adc who shoot stuff from one screen away, but general does not have the strength in prolonged fights, or against tanky targets.

Dark Salt Thresh1 votes

So I'll address Shaco I'm a shaco main, and I have a very high win rate with him (though I play mostly in lower elos, so it doesn't count for much) And you are right, he does have a lot of outplay potential. He also has the most diverse item builds I've seen, between full damage, bruiser, and tank (I prefer the bruiser route), and sometimes AP I personally think he is fine where he is, but if I had to make one change, I would give his boxes a 2-3 hit counter, so they don't immediately die after placing them in a teamfight. It's not that I'm opposed to a rework,maybe I just don't like change too much, as another user said he has

an incredibly devoted fanbase

Shaco is pretty much the only reason I still enjoy this game (and I used to hate him more than anything)

esmeraldem1 votes

Just play Tahm Kench - Build a shit ton of health/armor/MR and you can still do assassin level damage. Pretty win win.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Just play Tahm Kench - Build a shit ton of health/armor/MR and you can still do assassin level damage. Pretty win win.

champs like tahm is an example of why assassins need to have there role more defined. riot is actually OK with tahms damage being the way it is while being so tanky at the same time... its pretty silly.

DREADN0UGHT1 votes

"Since a majority of assassin champs have stealth, if not all of them actually"

What. The. Fuck.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

"Since a majority of assassin champs have stealth, if not all of them actually"

What. The. Fuck.

i admittedly fucked up the wording on that. what i mean to say was that any champ who has cloak/stealth is more than likely an assassin or even ranged assassin.Twitch

Vayne is probably the only debatable one i guess. some see her as an assassin, some just a plane ADC/marksman with stealth. i say vayne is vayne, she is clearly both.

oh, and i guess Teemo too is also debatable... only Teemo knows what he truly is

HolyCrapItsMe1 votes

Well maybe we can start by dividing them into smaller groups, for example theres assassins that blow up entire five man teams under the right circumstances like Katarina and there are assassins that can 100% crush any squishy they come upon in 1v1 or can risk their lives to kill 1 target between a few, but have the means to kill and escape, like Zed

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Well maybe we can start by dividing them into smaller groups, for example theres assassins that blow up entire five man teams under the right circumstances like Katarina and there are assassins that can 100% crush any squishy they come upon in 1v1 or can risk their lives to kill 1 target between a few, but have the means to kill and escape, like Zed

that could work too.

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