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@Riot Why is this allowed? (twitch vs eve stealth)

lolipopevelynn··49 votes·3,802 views

This picture should say it all.

https://imgur.com/a/2Clwm

his stealth radius is nearly half the range of eves, and he can burst ENTIRE TEAMS from a range of 850 (thats eight-hundred-fity) units... thats actually ridiculous that its even allowed. There is more to this story however. not only is the range lower on twitches stealth but twitch also gets stealth resets AND he is not knocked out of stealth like eve is. he has been like this for the entire season with not one nerf in sight, and the season is almost over...

Its flat out not fair. eves stealth gets butchered in the rework and Twitch is still running around just shitting on every living thing in sight from behind the safety of stealth. Even if you increased eves stealth range, why would you allow her to get removed from stealth upon getting hit by attacks, minions, and DoTs? especially when her stealth has is now tied to a lvl 6 ultimate? But wait, there is more! ontop of everything else i mentioned, twitch also gains bonus movespeed AND bonus attack speed from using his stealth... thats right, stealth + steroid on top of a steroid on top of another steroid. Did i mention it lasts for 14 seconds and resets even on assists?

So just explain to me why a champion, who gets 850 range, movement speed, + attack speed is allowed to have SIGNIFICANTLY LESS of a detection radius than a melee champion who only gets the benefit of invisibility when going stealth? its not like new eve has any significant kind of gap closer aside from her ult, but if you are using her ult to gap close you are putting yourself in danger, have zero escape, and you are not using it to assassinate anyone. she literally has to get in melee range to do anykind of damage to you. Twitch only needs to pop out of stealth, get that attack speed steroid and stand there and attack you with the highest attack range in the game that also pierces through enemies.

come on riot please...

79 Comments

Ra1uga12 votes

I'm more concerned about Rengar 's r in comparison to twitch q than eve stealth.

lolipopevelynn8 votes

{quoted}

I'm more concerned about Rengar 's r in comparison to twitch q than eve stealth.

rengar has incredibly increased movement speed and a huge gap closer when he ults. not at all comparable.

Ra1uga14 votes

{quoted}

rengar has incredibly increased movement speed and a huge gap closer when he ults. not at all comparable.

Twitch gets: 10 %-30% move speed, 10-14 seconds stealth with a 16 second cooldown, 30-50% more attack speed for 5 seconds. His ult gives him 300 more range, so effectively he has a rengar ult on his q.

Rengar gets: 725 range leap, reveal of nearest target, 40% move speed, and 12-20 seconds camoflauge on a 13-70 second cooldown. He also gets a free crit if he jumps on the nearest target.

It is very comparable. Look at what rengar gets vs what twitch gets and the relative power of both. Twitch's Q has a much lower cooldown for slightly less camoflauge, yet has a small af detection radius. Twitch does not give any indicator that he is nearby unless he walks into practically melee range.

Twitch q is much better than rengar r in just about every way. The two abilities are highly comparable. If you're gonna mention what rengar gets, you have to realize what twitch gets and the amount of times he can get it compared to rengar.

lolipopevelynn6 votes

{quoted}

Twitch gets: 10 %-30% move speed, 10-14 seconds stealth with a 16 second cooldown, 30-50% more attack speed for 5 seconds. His ult gives him 300 more range, so effectively he has a rengar ult on his q.

Rengar gets: 725 range leap, reveal of nearest target, 40% move speed, and 12-20 seconds camoflauge on a 13-70 second cooldown. He also gets a free crit if he jumps on the nearest target.

It is very comparable. Look at what rengar gets vs what twitch gets and the relative power of both. Twitch's Q has a much lower cooldown for slightly less camoflauge, yet has a small af detection radius. Twitch does not give any indicator that he is nearby unless he walks into practically melee range.

Twitch q is much better than rengar r in just about every way. The two abilities are highly comparable. If you're gonna mention what rengar gets, you have to realize what twitch gets and the amount of times he can get it compared to rengar.

rengar hops out of his stealth before getting detected and gets more movespeed. there is literally nothing wrong with rengars stealth dude lol. you literally CAN NOT make rengars ult any better than it is right now because he would become stupid broken as is evident in his history. what problem do you find with a 725 range leaping gap closer, 30 second stealth on an insanely short CD, getting true sight on the closest enemy within 4000 units, and 40% move speed? rengar has zero problems assassinating someone with his ult.

if you really wnt to compare all we have to say is that rengar can hop on twitch and 1 shot him with item 3147 and item 3031 and call it a day. thats why you cant compare the two. eve doesnt have that luxury, she lost her move speed active. the only way she can even get move speed is if she hits a target with her stupidly short ranged E. rengar doesnt need to get into melee range with his stealth, he can hop at you from further than most ADCs can attack. eve NEEDS to get in melee range first.

The Ultimator9 votes

hops out of his stealth before getting detected

Unless he ults pretty damn close to you, you'll be able to see him coming from a mile away with that 4k range indicator when he ults.

Ra1uga2 votes

{quoted}

rengar hops out of his stealth before getting detected and gets more movespeed. there is literally nothing wrong with rengars stealth dude lol. you literally CAN NOT make rengars ult any better than it is right now because he would become stupid broken as is evident in his history. what problem do you find with a 725 range leaping gap closer, 30 second stealth on an insanely short CD, getting true sight on the closest enemy within 4000 units, and 40% move speed? rengar has zero problems assassinating someone with his ult.

if you really wnt to compare all we have to say is that rengar can hop on twitch and 1 shot him with item 3147 and item 3031 and call it a day. thats why you cant compare the two. eve doesnt have that luxury, she lost her move speed active. the only way she can even get move speed is if she hits a target with her stupidly short ranged E. rengar doesnt need to get into melee range with his stealth, he can hop at you from further than most ADCs can attack. eve NEEDS to get in melee range first.

"nothing wrong" when a basic ability is better than an ultimate there's a problem with that. I listed very clearly his stealth does not last for 30 seconds. It goes for 20 at max rank. It's on a 130-70 sec cooldown in comparison to twitch q's 16 seconds.

Rengar can hop on twitch yeah thats true But in what world is that going to happen if they have literally anyone around to deny the crit? Twitch on the other hand, gets to oneshot ENTIRE TEAMS UNDETECTED.

Old rengar's problem was actually not his ultimate. His ultimate was a utility spell. The problem with old rengar is that he could build crit and do ADC levels of damage from stealth, but melee.

Old rengar ult+old rengar fero Q is very similar to twitch q+r. Rengar was just melee and fully invisible. Twitch Q also gave full invisibility, but for a shorter duration. Same for rengo r

Faustavian2 votes

....You realize Twitch's stealth cancels the second he uses an ability, attacks, or sweeper lens, right? He can't "ONE SHOT (OP PLS NERF QQ)" entire teams and be "UNDETECTED".

Ra1uga2 votes

{quoted}

....You realize Twitch's stealth cancels the second he uses an ability, attacks, or sweeper lens, right? He can't "ONE SHOT (OP PLS NERF QQ)" entire teams and be "UNDETECTED".

Yes he can, because twitch's R does not reveal him, and by the point he presses it he's in position to oneshot your whole team.

Faustavian1 votes

Oh yes, and if in the champ select someone had the bright idea of playing literally anyone who can either burst or CC twitch, he's fucked.

Because he can ≠ You have to let him

Ra1uga2 votes

{quoted}

Oh yes, and if in the champ select someone had the bright idea of playing literally anyone who can either burst or CC twitch, he's fucked.

Because he can ≠ You have to let him

Janna item 3504

LordGeovanni1 votes

item 3085 5%item 3087 5% he actually has rengar ult speed

LordGeovanni1 votes

feels bad man because leona W way better than Jax active R because she actually has some base hp even if its still not much.

Teridax686 votes

As mentioned in another post, Twitch's camouflage is currently by far the shortest of all three, so the issue isn't so much that Eve's reveal radius is too large (though she shouldn't be targeted by minions while camouflaged), but that Twitch's reveal radius is far, far too short, particularly since out of all three camouflage champions he has the longest potential range. The fact that there's also no consistency to the camouflage radius also bothers me, as it doesn't really give a clear picture of how close a camouflage champion can get before you can expect to detect them.

In the long run, though, I think camouflage is not a good mechanic, and exists to give some stealth champions a semblance of counterplay without actually addressing what makes their one-shot burst from stealth unhealthy (namely, their upfront burst). In Evelynn's case, though, her rework made her significantly healthier, to the point where I feel she would only need a few tweaks before being able to function on full invisibility, with no detection radius. Not only does the camouflage radius make no real thematic sense, but it only served a purpose when Eve's burst was all upfront and had no counterplay: now, however, Eve has plenty of counterplay, and her burst is mostly back-loaded, so the groundwork is already there to let her take her opponents completely by surprise.

Faustavian3 votes

You see, I'm okay with twitch's stealth range to be honest.

  • If eve gets caught from stealth she can ult out, giving her an option of escape by a complete reposition, so her detection is understandably bigger.
  • If rengo gets caught out, he can empowered roar and release his CC, and remove a lot of the damage just dealt to him. So he's got that medium range stealth
  • Twitch dies. Unless he is ridiculously fed off the rocks, Because face it, unless he's fed af, he's not one shotting anyone quicker than an assassin or bruiser or mage (both are squishy carries, it depends on who gets the jump on who) would straight up delete him. So he's given a bit more leeway with his only escape, which if he used it how most people are QQ'ing about, it's on CD since he apparently used it to engage, so he's up shit's creek without a paddle if the enemy has any sort of means to get onto him.

Eve's stealth IS thematic btw, since she LURES the people close to her, and then when they're close enough go full apeshit.

Teridax681 votes

The thematic component involves her luring enemies in while in human form, though, whereas her camouflage reveal radius shows her in demon form to enemies, so there is a thematic dissonance there. The lure is expressed in her charm, and I'd rather her charm broke stealth to reveal her (i.e. she'd show her human form and that would be the cause of the charm), than keep her detection radius.

Faustavian1 votes

She needs to break her stealth to activate her charm, so there's that thematic. Stalking up and building to it.

And what of the bullets?

Teridax681 votes

Her charm doesn't actually break stealth, it simply leaves a directional indicator. As for the bullet points, I don't really agree, because as a ranged champion, Twitch is the least likely of these three to be caught in detection range. If he ends up there, he messed up, whereas Rengar and Eve need to get into melee range (and thus into detection range) in order to start fighting. Some other players mentioned this elsewhere, but if you are to compare Twitch and Rengar's tools, and factor in their itemization, Twitch effectively has Rengar's ult on a much shorter cooldown, and can do the same thing Rengar does, only from a much safer range and to the entire enemy team. Unlike the other three, he can also reactivate his camouflage upon getting a takedown, so he does, in fact, have a means of escape. This falls apart when he's behind, but currently that rarely happens, as it takes only a couple items for him to become a major kill threat.

Faustavian1 votes

I said to activate her charm, "proc" it.

And least likely may be true, do to his range, but a vast amount of champions have at least one ability to get ontop of him anyways. Most champions also have a means to get away from twitch if he gets the jump on them, so It's not necessary to give him the kill reset.

Rengo's ult -It reveals the nearest enemy champion (Twitch is fucked, regardless because he can see twitch in camo, too) -gives one 100% crit attack -gapcloser -escape -frighten off laners from harassing yours -fills up passive faster for your abilities to become empowered. -12-20 seconds of stealth -40% MS -Low CD for an ultimate

Twitch's Q -Gives attack speed almost equivalent to a phanom dancer (PD = 45%, Q@max = 50%) -Stealth for 14 seconds -10-30% MS -Resets on a kill or assist -escape -softcore gapcloser -escape

Both have their strengths and uses but they are not "better" than one another. It only takes a few items for MOST of the champion roster to become a kills threat, some don't even need that many items Blitzcrank for example. Rengo with warrior+Dusk is going to delete JUST as hard as a twitch with Runaans + IE, if he crits often.

Except Twitch has to buy the "opportunity" to crit, albeit he has a 50% chance to on every auto, Rengar doesn't have to buy that crit for his initial burst.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

I said to activate her charm, "proc" it.

Activating the charm requires you to strike the target, which breaks stealth by itself anyways.

{quoted}

And least likely may be true, do to his range, but a vast amount of champions have at least one ability to get ontop of him anyways. Most champions also have a means to get away from twitch if he gets the jump on them, so It's not necessary to give him the kill reset.

Twitch has a lot of upfront burst, though, and unlike assassins, who have to proactively seek out and chase targets, Twitch forces enemies to attack him via his pushing power, so as the game goes on there's increasingly little that can be done to stop him.

Rengo's ult -It reveals the nearest enemy champion (Twitch is fucked, regardless because he can see twitch in camo, too) -gives one 100% crit attack -gapcloser -escape -frighten off laners from harassing yours -fills up passive faster for your abilities to become empowered. -12-20 seconds of stealth -40% MS -Low CD for an ultimate

Twitch's Q -Gives attack speed almost equivalent to a phanom dancer (PD = 45%, Q@max = 50%) -Stealth for 14 seconds -10-30% MS -Resets on a kill or assist -escape -softcore gapcloser -escape

{quoted}

Both have their strengths and uses but they are not "better" than one another.

Except the cooldown on Rengar's ult is, at rank 3, over 4 times that of Twitch's Q, the latter of which can reset multiple times in combat, gives a steroid and has no global warning, which I don't think is really worth an extra 10% MS, 6 extra seconds of stealth, a reveal and a guaranteed crit (his ult no longer boosts his Ferocity generation either), particularly since Twitch himself crits frequently and doesn't put himself at risk when fighting. 130 seconds at rank 1 is actually on the higher end for ults, too, and 70 seconds at rank 3 is about average. Saying Rengar can beat Twitch because of the reveal has no relevance here, as Rengar is an assassin and is supposed to be strong against marksmen. Twitch, by contrast, has the advantages of both a marksman and an assassin, and makes no real tradeoff for either set of strengths.

{quoted}

It only takes a few items for MOST of the champion roster to become a kills threat,

Except marksmen are officially balanced around being a late-game class, so if they start hitting late game at around 2 items, and reaching a kill threat on par with mid-game classes like mages and assassins, something's very wrong. Blitzcrank is not a major kill threat unless he itemizes for it (and even then, that requires the legitimate sacrifice of his survivability, as with any other melee champion), and if Rengar on two items can only delete someone as quickly as a marksman on two items, then the balance of marksman is completely out of wack.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

Rengo with warrior+Dusk is going to delete JUST as hard as a twitch with Runaans + IE, if he crits often.

That's the problem. ADCs should not reach ever reach parity with assassin burst at any point in the game.

Jet Sett1 votes

See ADC positioning doesn't allow you to get caught in the first place if you're actually smart about it. His stealth isn't used to catch you out like a normal assassin, he positions in a place you don't expect so he can fire into your entire team while his team occupies yours. Most of the time if Twitch is seen during camouflage you caught him like literally any other ADC, but if he actually managed to stealth before you get close you're almost guaranteed to lose him because of the bonus move speed and small detection radius.

If we're gonna keep camouflage as is than we should have better/ and or more vision options to deal with it or we didn't make champions rely on it so hard. Stealth as a whole should be a mechanic you can play around, but instead Riot went backwards and made a brand of stealth that has LESS counterplay, and not to mention Control Wards have a smaller detection range than old Pink Wards and this is even weaker as a stealth deterrent.

There should be a way to reveal or see any type of stealth, especially for champions that rely on targeted damage instead of blind fire skill shots.

V3gan4 votes

because eve's camo gives health and mana and is a PASSIVE while twitch's q costs mana and isnt always up

BenParadox8 votes

Her Passive doesn't give mana anymore.

Warlord Scrap3 votes

Twitch loses an active ability to get stealth eve doesnt. Twitch has to sacirfice skill points to increase his stealths power eve doesnt. Eve can stay stealth theoretically the whole game after level 6 twitch cant.

lolipopevelynn10 votes

{quoted}

Twitch loses an active ability to get stealth eve doesnt. Twitch has to sacirfice skill points to increase his stealths power eve doesnt. Eve can stay stealth theoretically the whole game after level 6 twitch cant.

What are you talking about? eve cant use her stealth till level 6, so for 5 levels it can not be used. 2ndly i dont think you understand what "reset" means if you think he "loses an active ability".

{quoted}

And eve is perma invis regains health and gets empowered e whats your point?

She gets the health regen and empowered E without having to stealth... This means even before level 6 she gets that regen and empowered E. she just needs to be out of combat. stealth itself gives her nothing except invisi. have you played the champion?

Warlord Scrap2 votes

Eves stealth is her passive. Twitches is an active. Eve has 4 abilities plus stealth twitch has 3 plus stealth. Twitch needs to activate it while eves is automatic. They are 2 seperate champions. This is the kayn's e is broken because talon can only do this all over again.

Tormentula12 votes

that's not the problem

The problem is Evelynn's stealth is limited to her 6 and works on a kit that has no gap closer while also warning players she's near (usually with W mark).

Twitch is a ranged champion with tons of breathing room to flank and blow up an entire team with ranged auto attacks and gives no reaction time in knowing he's coming to fuck shit up. (since his r is self cast and autos are instant out of stealth rather then eve who's everything is her charm.)

tbh its less of an "eve is weak" issue and more of a "why is twitch still this bullshit by comparison" thread.

Warlord Scrap5 votes

Because adcs are and will forever be the golden boys of league. And this isnt a rant answer but marksmen are the one class that was never forced out of the meta. Theres no tank metas, no mage metas, no assassin metas, no enchanter sups only mage supps metas. Even at marksmens weakest they were still in the meta team comp. Any every time they seam to be getting phased out riot nerfs there competition. And tbh i dont see a way to ever balance adcs without making amother class bs levels of broken.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Because adcs are and will forever be the golden boys of league. And this isnt a rant answer but marksmen are the one class that was never forced out of the meta. Theres no tank metas, no mage metas, no assassin metas, no enchanter sups only mage supps metas. Even at marksmens weakest they were still in the meta team comp. Any every time they seam to be getting phased out riot nerfs there competition. And tbh i dont see a way to ever balance adcs without making amother class bs levels of broken.

its called nerfing the adc so they go down to the level of the other classes

overall the classes outside of adc are balanced

sure seach class has some outliers

for tanks Chogath is stupid broken for supports Lulu is a bit op mages don't really have any clear "op" champs anymore, they are mostly all even balance wise. certain mages are stronger than other because of the lack of diversity with mage items makes w/e champions that actually work WELL with the current limited choice better. assasins, well like mages thier purpose to to kill then enemy squishy.. the problem is, both mages and assassins are now getting killed my the adc's themselves. sure there are some outliiers like shadow assassin Kayn who has a dash aoe swipe that.. it stupidly broken. but for the most part assasin damage is fine.. it just every adc is op... and then on top all adc's we have shit like Twitch...

Warlord Scrap1 votes

By virtue of them being ranged aa theres no way to truly balance them without out and out gutting them

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

By virtue of them being ranged aa theres no way to truly balance them without out and out gutting them

its very simple... make it so they do constant damage per second.... and don't burst you down quicker than have the burst mages/ assains

adc should NEVER "burst your", their role is to provide constant dps through the entire fight. becuase they don't rely on cooldowns.

Warlord Scrap1 votes

damage outscales defenses though. Everytime a burst champ can legit one rotation squishes the community gets in an uproar. Becaue minus a few item passives adcs dps is the same against all classes they can burst down squishies. Short of lowering all damage and resistances across the board adcs ttk is going to be low.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

damage outscales defenses though. Everytime a burst champ can legit one rotation squishes the community gets in an uproar. Becaue minus a few item passives adcs dps is the same against all classes they can burst down squishies. Short of lowering all damage and resistances across the board adcs ttk is going to be low.

damage does need to lowered across the board, that would be the proper solution.. but UNTIL that time.. the only way to beat adc's IS for them to be taken down in 1 rotation

Warlord Scrap1 votes

but they were at the beginning of the season and assassins and burst mages were "broken"

LordGeovanni1 votes

Gut them then they will still be nessicary because they are the only ranged constant damage to towers even if mages can throw out 1 auto and do 3 times what an adc does to a tower in 1 auto and if that ever becomes the case they can just remove the magic damage to towers and adcs have a place again.

Warlord Scrap1 votes

Id actually be fine with this in theory this could possibly increase game time to make full builds the norm not exceptions again.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

How quickly we forget "ADC in 2017" memes. It's even got a year in it, so you can't say it was soooo long ago.

Just earlier this year, ADCs were relegated to providing some amount of AD damage that scales some along with some form of utility, which is why Ashe, Varus and Jhin were top dogs.

Ranged AD damage doesn't get phased out ever not because Riot nerfs/buffs competition etc, it's just a core of the game: you win the game by taking towers and eventually the nexus, and no one will ever be better at siege than a ranged champion that primarily builds AD and attack speed. Think of anytime you've seen some kind of cheese kill lane bot do well, or an ARAM where you get an entirely melee team; they often struggle with pushing and taking turrets, because it's way less safe to walk into melee range and attack something than it is from range. The only way you can completely cut out ADCs and make them absolutely worthless is if you change the fundamental goal of League of Legends.

Edit: just to make it clear, I'm not saying no adjustments are currently needed, but I don't see a version of this game where marksman completely leave the picture.

Warlord Scrap1 votes

im not saying they were as strong as they were now buy they were never pushed out of the game either. Almost every other subclass has been pushed out except marksman.

LordGeovanni1 votes

That was bullshit because the second assassins were reworked people were claiming adcs couldnt do anything while assassins only killed adcs if they were ahead and adcs still killed assassins and everyone else in every other situation. That was a result of people trying to play assassins in every position that wasnt adc so adcs had 4 people targeting them and no body protecting them and as they should when they have 4 people targeting them they should die when tanks dont even last long versus 2

Yara02 votes

Twitch also doesnt lose an ability because his Q also gives attack speed and movement speed............ Twitch has a better jungle kit then a champ actually designed as a jungler......... The only viable excuse i see for eves current state is riots gonna pull some stupid shit with the jungle again like the do every year and eve is designed around that. but i doubt it

LordGeovanni1 votes

wish an eve would stay stealth the whole game cause that would mean she did nothing that whole game as the only thing she can use without breaking stealth is w and she cant even proc it or she breaks stealth

Warlord Scrap1 votes

Your taking what i said literaly and not how its meant. Twitch cant stay stealthed because its timed. Eve can stay stealthed indefinately and can chosse when to break it as long as shes not detected.

LordGeovanni1 votes

yes but twitch has more range permanatly and can increase it even more temporarily while bypassing the weakness of basic attack are single target not aoe at the same time. both of those are ultimate class abilites seperated

Iręlía3 votes

All I know is that detection radius should be the same across all champs with camo. Also that Eve needs a lot of QoL changes.

Azazel Aerternum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Q The Keg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Org6omUE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-14T23:10:01.212+0000)

All I know is that detection radius should be the same across all champs with camo. Also that Eve needs a lot of QoL changes.

Evelynn is fine, I don't want them touching my Eve. If they look at her, they might nerf her. :/

KindredAndWolf7 votes

{quoted}

Evelynn is fine, I don't want them touching my Eve. If they look at her, they might nerf her. :/

Are you fucking insane? Eve is in the shitter so hard right now. Not viable at all above gold elo. She is so bad Riot is giving her reaaly shit knee jerk reaction buffs on the pbe right now. These buffs aren't enough, i guarantee you she will get more buffs and more changes in the coming weeks.

sketchy12 votes

id also like to add that eves charm also is a pretty big reveal because it

  1. takes a bit for the charm to ready 2)points to where she is.

and can anyone confirm if twitch can get spotted out by minions?

Ra1uga2 votes

{quoted}

id also like to add that eves charm also is a pretty big reveal because it

  1. takes a bit for the charm to ready 2)points to where she is.

and can anyone confirm if twitch can get spotted out by minions?

Twitch only is spotted by true sight/control wards/sweepers and nearby ally champs.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

Comparing totally different champions - Season 3 , Episode 9. I hate Twitch but I hate posts like this even more.

I can say too that Eve has hard CC and that her camouflage is permanent after lvl 6 , she also has an execution that instantly gets her out of the fight while making her untargetable. Your point?

Kaeblen2 votes

Yeah, that's not even close. Shouldn't camouflage be normalized for all champions (for clarity and consistency) and then buff/nerf them in other areas to get their power in line?

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