"Here at Rito, we don't want to remove something core to a champ"

Nucleophilic atk·Oct 11, 2014·10 votes·1,787 views

But we are going to remove the mana ratios on Ryze. I'll start by saying that I do not main Ryze (I have only played him once and it was because I was trolled into it by someone wanting to trade me that then decided not to. Dick head move there), so I have no hidden intentions here. Removing mana ratios on Ryze will completely kill him as a champ, identity wise as well as viability. The dude is known for being unique in that he can build mana for power. He also will now have to build like every other AP champion if he wants to do damage and will lose his tanky persona. If he wants to be tanky, he will do no damage. I didn't think playing against Ryze was overwhelming at all, all you had to do was shut up him down early since he is extremely item reliant.

42 Comments

HayaishiOct 11, 201412 votes

good, every time he's viable he kills every single melee champion that goes top lane.

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20142 votes

"OMG OMG!!!! A champion that counters something else.....I can't possibly be smart enough to maybe take a different champion top to counter their attempt at countering me." Countering =/= OP. Not too mention, have your jungler gank you only two times and Ryze is done.

DaishøOct 12, 20141 votes

have fun trying to gank a mana scaling tank that has a non skillshot stun and can burst you down if he wants to.

336KMlmYm9Oct 12, 20141 votes

He doesn't have a stun, he has a root, and it's very short duration for the entirety of the lane phase. During the early game he is neither tanky, nor is his damage particularly good.

Anyone who has an issue with Ryze during the laning phase is either bad, or only plays champions that Ryze counters.

AHeroNamedHawkeOct 12, 20142 votes

"OMG OMG!!!! A champion that counters something else.....I can't possibly be smart enough to maybe take a different champion top to counter their attempt at countering me." Countering =/= OP. Not too mention, have your jungler gank you only two times and Ryze is done.

Agreed Yasuo is the most balanced champion in the game

Just play Xin mid

CoolSpot2Oct 11, 20148 votes

So they said before nerf to AP YI , AP TRYN , AP SION , AP EVELYN , AP NIDALEE , AP GRAGAS .

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20141 votes

Well, I never came across an AP Tyrn, but the rest were easy to deal with. Except AP Yi was stupid OP lol. He needed to get erased since they wouldn't be able to nerf him enough to make him not OP but still viable.

redniwediSOct 11, 20143 votes

That exact thing you said there is what many say about Ryze. You can't use that argument just to be surprised when others use it in a context you don't agree with.

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20143 votes

It is what people say about Ryze that are countered by Ryze. Like I said, I don't even play the guy so I'm not concerned with him for that reason. I have never had trouble playing with or against him. He gets fed, he is good. He doesn't he is not. I don't get excited when I see one on my team and I don't say shit when the other team gets him. I actually haven't even seen him banned or picked in awhile. So, in my opinion, it is completely different. Every game had an AP Yi. He also could tank 4 players during his meditate. Apples and oranges, my friend.

redniwediSOct 11, 20141 votes

It's only apples and oranges because you're making it that way. The validity of the argument is one thing, which you are fully correct on, but the use of the argument is another.

People complained about a champion being OP for a while, then the champ got nerfed. The complaining draws attention to the champion in question, but typically the nerfs are earned. Ryze isn't just a strong top laner, he is an oppressive top laner. You can counter him sure, but the effort it takes to do so requires a level of play the majority of the community cannot accomplish.

And I'm not talking about your average Ryze player either. Someone who spends enough time to learn the small details of a champion should do better than a casual player, sure, but Ryze can dominate his lane in a way few unnerfed champions can accomplish. You can deal with Ryze in his live state, but you could also deal with AD Nidalee, AP Evelyn, and AP Yi.

There are different levels of "stupid OP", so comparing old AP Yi to current Ryze can't really be done, but the fact that both are on the scale is something that cannot be ignored.

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20141 votes

First off, I don't think that Ryze is OP in the slightest. That being said, I am not sure why you are fixating on that issue. The thread isn't about whether he is currently OP or not, it is about removing the core aspect of his gameplay. Could they not just nerf it if they felt is was slighty OP (which it isn't)? Given that he is not completely OP in the slightest, I don't really think a small nerf would make him unviable. The problem with AP Yi was that he was so strong, but nerfing him would have made him fall drastically. Ryze is not so strong as he is, and dropping the ratios a little bit, for example, wouldn't kill him either. But again, this thread was not started to discuss the strength of Ryze, merely the fact that Rito is taking away what makes Ryze, Ryze...and I'm not sure how you can argue against that.

redniwediSOct 11, 20143 votes

Ryze, at his core, is a spell spammer. This has been maintained. He hasn't always been the mana tank he is today, and so he doesn't always have to be one.

That said the key point to my last post was that Riot pays particular attention to champions that are stronger than they need to be. Ryze is a full pick or ban champion at worlds, if you haven't noticed. You might not see the strength of Ryze at your level of play, but so long as there is a level where he is oppressive nerfs will be needed.

AP Yi was oppressive at more levels of play than Ryze is currently, but oppressive gameplay is not something Riot wants at any level. They believe that removing some of his mana scaling will fix this by forcing him to build squishier in an effort to have the same damage output. You now have to choose between high damage or high durability, you can't just have both.

Starbox0Oct 12, 20142 votes

The thing is nothing was no changes were made after the end of Regionals where Ryze saw basically 0 play. There is nothing inherently oppressive with how Ryze plays. Sure you can harass, but at any point if you call for a jungle dive, he basically cannot do anything. Its during the World Championships where people are more careful about dives and aggressive plays that allows Ryze to survive until late game. In solo q, if a jungler camps Ryze, most likely Ryze will be shut down and useless. In a competitive match, running Ryze top lane requires a lot of preparation to make sure Ryze survives. It's not like AP Yi where there is 0 counterplay.

wolfaxOct 12, 20141 votes

The only reason a lot of those champions had AP scalings is because of super antiquated design from when the game started.

Why was Yi building mage items when he's a swordsman?

Same with Trynd.

Why was Sion when he's supposed to be the frontline juggernaut killing enemies with his massive axe?

101100111000Oct 11, 20144 votes

Keep the mana ratios, nerf the numbers.

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20142 votes

Yup. Very possible solution. Would address the issue of people somehow thinking he is OP, while keeping his core the same. I don't understand how they can't think of this lol.

Starbox0Oct 12, 20141 votes

Maybe even lower his base/AP ratios.

Nucleophilic atkOct 12, 20141 votes

Another possible solution. I feel like Ryze is unique in the aspect of how he is built, and this change will ruin that.

junglerboy16Oct 12, 20141 votes

Yeah, if anything, I'd nerf the AP ratios so that his late game Seraphs power spike isn't as strong. He is supposed to scale with mana primarily, not AP, and taking away his mana scalings will take away his identity.

Caustic CrusaderOct 11, 20142 votes

"just 2v1 him" isn't counterplay. Ryze could have you get ganked twice and then bam, he's back in it. Not to mention, Ryze himself isn't all that easy to gank with his W and ult speed boost. It seems like you don't understand the issue. Countering =/= OP, I agree, but Ryze is just impossible for almost anybody to fight when he's able to go top.

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20141 votes

There are many champions that counter Ryze mid. Why not just take them top as well against him?

ChargeItDownMidOct 11, 20141 votes

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Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20141 votes

I seem to be able to play against Ryze pretty easily with Fiddles top.

Caustic CrusaderOct 11, 20141 votes

There are many champions that counter Ryze mid. Why not just take them top as well against him?

Do you see nothing wrong with the fact that in order to fight Ryze at all, you're basically forced to eliminate and entire role from the game? There's so few bruisers who can fight him that he renders the choice of top laners into either like two or three champs, or forcing it to turn into a second mid lane.

Besides, the mana scaling isn't what I identify as what Ryze is meant to be. He's supposed to be a constant spellslinger. Mana scaling is just a second thing off to the side. They've also removed things from other champs in the past instead of making it more reasonable to deal with. Remember when Xerath had free MPen? That's about as iconic to his kit as Ryze's mana scaling the way I see it (as in, not very) and now that's gone. Or look at the Cassiopeia rework, which removed the ability to enjoy games as Cassiopeia

Starbox0Oct 12, 20141 votes

Melee's do have a role against Ryze. Irelia has a very favorible match up against Ryze. Her regen reduces the effectiveness of harass, and she will have kill potential past 5.

DaishøOct 12, 20141 votes

like who? im curious. cause Zed , Yasuo , Orianna , Veigar , Talon and more all have a hard time against ryze mid.

DaishøOct 12, 20141 votes

and who of these champs that counter him mid have a easy time top. Zed and Yasuo are the only 2 mids that can go top without having the hardest f*cking time ever, and even these 2 have a hard time against a ryze. Im curious?

Starbox0Oct 12, 20141 votes

Irelia , Jayce , MonkeyKing are all top laners that can easily beat Ryze 1 v 1.

336KMlmYm9Oct 12, 20141 votes

The point being that he's actually pretty easy to gank, as early game he doesn't have his ult for a speed boost and his root is only 0.75sec duration. And that he's extremely item reliant for damage. So if an early gank or two puts you ahead it's actually quite difficult for Ryze to come back. Unless his jungler camps your lane, but then your team should easily win mid and bot lanes.

ceaselessphantomOct 12, 20142 votes

I see a few people suppoirting this nerf talking about how he bullies top laners.

So in order to stop him from bullying people in lane we are going to nerf his late game power? Yeah that totally makes sense.

Meme KingOct 11, 20141 votes

woah i gotta look at pbe, this is gonna be good

ZaikyoOct 11, 20141 votes

Wasn't Ryze originally an extremely AP scaling champion originally? A long long time ago? Or am I misremembering?

Nucleophilic atkOct 11, 20143 votes

Lol, I have no idea. I do know, however, that they are just removing one more unique aspect of a champion, despite that they say the are against it.

336KMlmYm9Oct 12, 20141 votes

Yeah, but they completely reworked him to be a mana scaling champion and in doing so reduced his AP scaling heavily. If they are going to turn him back into being an AP champion he needs a serious boost to his AP scaling, likely to the point that a rework is required. If they're going to leave mana scaling only on his Q then they either need to up the amount of mana scaling on it, or give a smaller boost to his AP ratios.

He doesn't have enough CC to function as a tank. He doesn't have the AP to function as a mage. If he looses the ability to function as an tank/mage hybrid from his mana scaling then he's just not going to seriously contribute enough to his team to be a worthwhile pick.

Commando YiOct 11, 20141 votes

link?

ChargeItDownMidOct 11, 20141 votes

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Starbox0Oct 12, 20141 votes

Most AP casters have much longer range than Ryze. Any team that has a lot of poke renders Ryze useless because he should never get in range. His mana ratios help him put out meaningful amounts to damage from the mana build he needs in order to get into range. If he no longer deals meaningful amounts of damage, then there would be no reason not to run say Renekton, who is a heck of a lot tankier and provides cc.

Capitan RickOct 12, 20141 votes

its a dumb nerf, ryze was good cus he an op lane bully, prison, unload spells and run away, no possible response from most top laners. Dropping the ratios isnt gonna fix anything but ruin his late game scaling.

RaptameiOct 12, 20141 votes

Design does not matter. Balance matters.

ZanphyraOct 12, 20141 votes

I think they could have lowered his early bases a bit but increased his AP/ Mana scaling or increased bases at later levels to compensate. I hate laning against Ryze as in elos where they can kite at all as they become hell if you are melee. "don't pick melee champions" doesn't really work that well unless you pick after Ryze.

Overall I do think he is oppressive top but I don't think removing part of his identity is the correct way to nerf him.