Buff Thornmail?

Rainfall·Sep 25, 2017·7 votes·659 views

stacking armor is punishing itself,since the physical damage taken reduction barely changes after building 1-2 armor items. So since is getting nerfed why dont we add some armor scaling on ?

17 Comments

RalanrSep 25, 20173 votes

Why is everyone complaining about armor being useless? I don't notice it.

RainfallSep 25, 20172 votes

armor is not useless for most of the game,its just that lategame you might as well have 300 armor youre going to die pretty much instantly to any ad champion. Armor itself is not a stat that promotes players stacking it since it becomes less and less valuable the more you buy. Health on the other hand is a great stat to stack.

RalanrSep 25, 20172 votes

Yeah, that's why the tank update put more power into resistance stacking and less into health stacking.

As much as it sucks, durability is supposed to fall off late game. Especially when the enemy builds a LW item.

kasfasSep 25, 20171 votes

Is that so? Then why was riot so infatuated with making early game tank items less tanky in favour of scaling strength?

I see some hypocrisy here.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 25, 20171 votes

Because they were too tanky early on. Tanks are supposed to be strongest mid-game.

The Yetii RiderSep 25, 20173 votes

Armor stacking is "promoted" by the existence and prevalence of lethality. The more armor you have, the less and less noticeable lethality is. If, by buying two items, I can completely invalidate the runes and passives of three of my opponent's items, I'm happy to do so.

More importantly, marksmen are pretty much the only class that deal high damage to high armor targets in the late game. You don't "instantly die" to Darius, Illaoi, Renekton, Riven, Talon or Zed when you have 300 armor. In fact, the reason Kha'Zix is so powerful at killing tanks is that his isolation cooldown reduction makes his Q very repeatable, much in the way a marksman can repeatedly auto attack, and so Kha'Zix cannot burst tanks but he can stick to them and kill them over 10 seconds with his Q like a marksman can.

The idea that you "instantly die" to juggernauts, divers and assassins as a tank is ludicrous.

Armor also reduces the damage you take from minions, monsters, baron, dragon, turrets...stacking armor is well worth it. Try actually playing a tank instead of just theory-crafting.

kasfasSep 25, 20171 votes

That is true, but there is a prevalence of % armour pen and shred in this game which can nullify significant portions of a champions resistances, and becomes more effective the more tank items the champion buys.

And as an assassin, how can you possibly have good killing power against tanks? Aren't they supposed to be the weakness of the assassin class being unable to be bursted?

I have never said, to my knowledge, that a tank that builds armour gets insta bursted by everyone, but the expectation of tank items vs the reality is very dissapointing. By which I mean building armour should reduce an opponents physical damage enough that you can fight them with your base damage and do about the same damage. Without that the items just generally feel underwhelming and unimportant as purchases. (And yes I know you're going to point out cc and what have you, but that is a Teamfight contribution not a solo contribution which is where many people have and will continue to play tanks despite your misconception about their intended AND perceived solo capabilities. If you insist on having other classes function in teamfight without cc, give them more damage while in those teamfights in order to threaten people.)

Anecdotally, I've seen only 3 sions in my recent games (when it wasn't me playing him) all of which totally ignored building tank items and built ONLY lethality, which is a reasonable off meta build. However, while building damage they were tanky enough to act as a tank in teamfights much like Kled or jarvan. This displays to me at least the ludicrous power that a tank steroid must be in order for the champion to function with current itemization, and if the champions who were individually updated weren't shoehorned into building tank items due to having terrible ratios they would likely build the more efficient damage items, much like maokai after his initial update. Not only does this make tanking feel more a chore than something enjoyable, but it demolished build and play diversity amongst these champions who may have once built damage in off builds but now cannot due to having their damage power removed in favour of broken tank steroids that still fail in achieving power perception amongst players.

The Yetii RiderSep 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have never said, to my knowledge, that a tank that builds armour gets insta bursted by everyone,

Quote from your post in this thread, the post that I was replying to: "armor is not useless for most of the game,its just that lategame you might as well have 300 armor youre going to die pretty much instantly to any ad champion."

There you go. If, by "any AD champion", you meant "marksman" then you were wrong to say 'any AD champion'. If you meant 'any AD champion', then yes, you absolutely said a tank that builds armor gets insta bursted by everyone.

kasfasSep 25, 20171 votes

Except the problem is you're referring to an entirely different person who may not share the same exact opinions as me. That would be Rainfall, who is not me.

I really hate it when Riot makes you use icons for quests, specifically for this reason.

The Yetii RiderSep 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That is true, but there is a prevalence of % armour pen and shred in this game which can nullify significant portions of a champions resistances, and becomes more effective the more tank items the champion buys.

There are two items that function in this way. Two. One of them is item 3036 / item 3033 . That item is built on marksmen, and marksmen are SUPPOSED to kill tanks. If marksmen can't kill tanks, tanks never die, so that's not an issue.

The other item is item 3071 , and that requires time to stack up. Yes, it does get better the more armor you build, but if your opponent needs to focus on you for 4 seconds to stack their shred 6 times, that's 4 seconds that they're not killing a squishy damage dealer, so you're doing your job as a tank and you feel good about it.

And as an assassin, how can you possibly have good killing power against tanks? Aren't they supposed to be the weakness of the assassin class being unable to be bursted?

Which is why I said that tanks are usually pretty good against champions like Zed and Talon.

Kha'Zix is the exception, not the rule. You don't die to burst from Kha'Zix, you die to his diver-like stickiness and the extremely low cooldown of his isolated Q. You may only take 200 damage from each Q, but if he can follow you forever and Q you 10 times in 20 seconds, you're going to die eventually. It's not the same as other assassins who HAVE to get a kill in order to get a reset.

I have never said, to my knowledge, that a tank that builds armour gets insta bursted by everyone, but the expectation of tank items vs the reality is very dissapointing. By which I mean building armour should reduce an opponents physical damage enough that you can fight them with your base damage and do about the same damage. Without that the items just generally feel underwhelming and unimportant as purchases. (And yes I know you're going to point out cc and what have you, but that is a Teamfight contribution not a solo contribution which is where many people have and will continue to play tanks despite your misconception about their intended AND perceived solo capabilities. If you insist on having other classes function in teamfight without cc, give them more damage while in those teamfights in order to threaten people.)

Yes you did, pointed it out in its own post. Please refrain from lying when it's so easy to prove you wrong.

"Building armor should reduce an opponent's physical damage enough that you can fight them with your base damage and do about the same damage".

This....can happen. It's just hard to do that for an extended period of time against someone who has The Black Cleaver. And that's really the point of the item, to make divers and juggernauts a threat against tanks who try to stall them out. You can stall out a diver or a juggernaut as a tank, but you can only stall them for so long. Taking down one of these threats should require an ally, you should never be able to 1v1 duel as a tank.

Anecdotally, I've seen only 3 sions in my recent games (when it wasn't me playing him) all of which totally ignored building tank items and built ONLY lethality, which is a reasonable off meta build. However, while building damage they were tanky enough to act as a tank in teamfights much like Kled or jarvan. This displays to me at least the ludicrous power that a tank steroid must be in order for the champion to function with current itemization, and if the champions who were individually updated weren't shoehorned into building tank items due to having terrible ratios they would likely build the more efficient damage items, much like maokai after his initial update. Not only does this make tanking feel more a chore than something enjoyable, but it demolished build and play diversity amongst these champions who may have once built damage in off builds but now cannot due to having their damage power removed in favour of broken tank steroids that still fail in achieving power perception amongst players.

"Having their damage power removed in favor of broken tank steroids that still fail in achieving power perception amongst players"

Player perception is not important. item 1401 and item 3109 have been nerfed at least twice each this season since the tank update because they are ACTUALLY powerful. Truly, actually, observably powerful. Reflected in data and statistics. Riot can't balance around players' feelings, they have to look at the reality of the situation.

As for damage power removed in favor of tank steroids - why should tanks deal damage again? That's the point of a diver or a juggernaut. The point of a tank is CC and durability. Some tanks even get mobility as well. So they have to pay for all that power somewhere, and they pay for it in damage. Why on earth should a tank deal damage? What is the point of playing a diver if the diver deals as much damage as the tank? Tanks don't need damage. They get nothing out of it but nerfs to their tank stats. That's not fun for anyone.

kasfasSep 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OpXkVLLE,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2017-09-25T22:17:24.696+0000)

There are two items that function in this way. Two. One of them is / . That item is built on marksmen, and marksmen are SUPPOSED to kill tanks. If marksmen can't kill tanks, tanks never die, so that's not an issue.

This is where we differ. I don't believe it is the ADCs job to kill the tank. It is, in my opinion, the skirmisher's and juggernauts job to kill the tank. The ADC should get enough being the only source of ranged sustained damage for objectives and teamfights. As a class that should be their use, much like assassins are good at roaming and snowballing, divers are good at snowballing and duelling, control mages are good at aoe control and zoning etc.

There are always exceptions to the rule of course, many of which have proven in their own ways to be problematic but not entirely unbalanceable, like azir combining adc and control mage aspects.

The other item is , and that requires time to stack up. Yes, it does get better the more armor you build, but if your opponent needs to focus on you for 4 seconds to stack their shred 6 times, that's 4 seconds that they're not killing a squishy damage dealer, so you're doing your job as a tank and you feel good about it.

A significant number of users of this item have enough aoe or dot damage to still ignore the tank while targeting the carries. If it were % armour pen it wouldn't be as big of an issue, and in fact I would even like to see it buffed, however, being shred, it also increases the damage of the ADC (and other physical sources) to the tank unnecessarily.

Which is why I said that tanks are usually pretty good against champions like Zed and Talon.

I don't like to take a quick point here about assassins if I may, skip if you'd like.

Assassins are fine in my opinion, being a tank main and all, but there's one general problem I have with the majority of them. They have way too much damage early. I know that it's necessary because they often fight ranged champions mid who have ways to poke them out or cc them, but for melees toplane specifically but not limited to tanks their early is very oppressive.

Kha'Zix is the exception, not the rule. You don't die to burst from Kha'Zix, you die to his diver-like stickiness and the extremely low cooldown of his isolated Q. You may only take 200 damage from each Q, but if he can follow you forever and Q you 10 times in 20 seconds, you're going to die eventually. It's not the same as other assassins who HAVE to get a kill in order to get a reset.

If Khazix is following you for long enough to get 10qs on you and isn't afraid to fight you then there is a problem. A tank should not be a pushover to anyone who just happens to be near them. Khazix should be very threatened by a tank because his class in enteral should not be able to deal with champions who build armour items.

Yes you did, pointed it out in its own post. Please refrain from lying when it's so easy to prove you wrong.

Like I've said, not my post, not my account. Riot icons are dumb.

"Building armor should reduce an opponent's physical damage enough that you can fight them with your base damage and do about the same damage".

This....can happen. It's just hard to do that for an extended period of time against someone who has The Black Cleaver. And that's really the point of the item, to make divers and juggernauts a threat against tanks who try to stall them out. You can stall out a diver or a juggernaut as a tank, but you can only stall them for so long. Taking down one of these threats should require an ally, you should never be able to 1v1 duel as a tank.

I think it should be possible to have a short 1v1 against a juggernaut as a tank. Meaning about 1 rotation of spells when played well should win you the trade. I have no problem with losing to an extended fight with a juggernaut because more often than not there was a way for me to not get stuck in that drawn out scenario.

When it comes to divers, they should feel significantly more threatened by fighting a tank solo, as their damage should be mitigated more by resistances (less % pen) meaning they need to use their mobility to win trades. If a tank can outplay their mobility then the tank should win the trade.

"Having their damage power removed in favor of broken tank steroids that still fail in achieving power perception amongst players"

Player perception is not important. and have been nerfed at least twice each this season since the tank update because they are ACTUALLY powerful. Truly, actually, observably powerful. Reflected in data and statistics. Riot can't balance around players' feelings, they have to look at the reality of the situation.

Player perception is what drives the enjoy ability of the game. It's the perception of the people that drives them forward to keep playing. Ehy bother playing a game that you don't like? You wouldn't. Riots entire business is in the dealings with perception. If people perceive power, they latch onto it. Much like how noone likes sunfire cape despite it potentially being very powerful. People like to be acknowledged more often than not, and those that don't play passive supports.

Not to say that the statistics aren't important at all and in fact should be the driving force in what balances the game, but player perception should be the design factor of the game and it is still sorely lacking.

As for damage power removed in favor of tank steroids - why should tanks deal damage again? That's the point of a diver or a juggernaut. The point of a tank is CC and durability. Some tanks even get mobility as well. So they have to pay for all that power somewhere, and they pay for it in damage. Why on earth should a tank deal damage? What is the point of playing a diver if the diver deals as much damage as the tank? Tanks don't need damage. They get nothing out of it but nerfs to their tank stats. That's not fun for anyone.

Off builds. Tanks used to be able to build damage items as an off build and deal more damage while sacrificing tankiness. This is no longer available for any of the reworked tanks because of their terrible ratios. People used to build ap on the reworked tanks with their own play style but can't anymore due to the changes.

Basically, tanks can't build damage anymore because they have insignificant or uncomplimentary damage ratios and types. If any of them did they would rather use the far more efficient damage items with their now insane free tank steroids and be more effective.

JaspersSep 25, 20171 votes

What are they changing on Bramble Vest? Out of interest.

Bramble Vest is a superb item against certain top laners. It's just Thornmail is not a good item, to me anyway. I've found myself building Bramble Vest against champs and then never upgrading it until my last item.

The health is pointless and the Cold Steel on there is also unwanted as most the time you'd want to build Randuin's (or Frozen Heart) if you are going armour tank against crit/adcs and having 2 of the same passive is a waste.

I'd suggest removing the health, removing Warden's. Make it an armour only item with chain vest, slightly cheaper overall as it no longer has the health and second passive but give it a bit more armour. The increased armour will help the reflected damage.

Basically give it back to Rammus and Malphite .

DuskDaUmbreonSep 25, 20171 votes

It's -10 magic damage, and +100g.

DtimeDSep 25, 20171 votes

Fuck that

DuskDaUmbreonSep 25, 20171 votes

The damage reduction increases less and less, but effective health against AD (eHPvAD, I believe is the term) increases at the same rate. 100 armor doubles your effective health against AD, 200 triples it, 300 quadruples it, and so forth. If you have 1000 hp, and 100 armor, you have an effective 2000hp against AD (regen is another factor we won't handle right now, because it changes the values in a complicated way). Armor stacking isn't punished. Building only armor is, but that's because magic damage. The game's designed in a way that you can't just stack one stat and do well (normally!)

SpoofghoulSep 25, 20171 votes

well item 3075 is kind of weird

it has rly bad synergy with other armor items

lost stats when combined with item 3082 item 3143 And very very weak armor scaling on it's thorns passive

meanwhile it does give a bunch of things like grievous wounds cold steel and a decent chunk of armor making it like a jack of all trades

And since armor stacking is kind of useless as long as %pen and burst per second exists you might as well just stick to 1 armor item

And since grievous wounds is non negotiable it is always going to have to be thornmail

The Yetii RiderSep 25, 20171 votes

Then why did you reply to me? I put that directly in response to Rainfall. It was directed to him, I was speaking directly to him. No reason for you to say "I have never said X".