Riot Not Going To Give Armor To Ap Mids

Rainfall·Oct 16, 2017·113 votes·4,758 views

riot is not going to compensate ap midlaners for the removal of armor runes. i would like to thank riot personally for planning to give us another season of yasuo and zed permabanned from the game.

141 Comments

AhrisOct 16, 201718 votes

The fact that Mages arent getting any AP, CDR, and magic pen lost, with like barely any decrease in mr for ALL champs. Also the nerf to AP mages through the mastery nerfs.

No more double edged sword, no more damage boost that mages used to burst(more conditions for damage) Even Ahri's w r burst with thunderlords now means the nerf waa not even needed in the first place.

Riot is a horrible group of people.

GrievousFetusOct 16, 201752 votes

Lack of magic pen is compensated for by the lack of MR runes though.

Plus you got guise and sorc shoes buffed to 18 pen and Void staff is 40 goddamn percent now. Mages are stronger than they were before offensively but people just keep whining about "muh Mpen reds".

AhrisOct 16, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Lack of magic pen is compensated for by the lack of MR runes though.

Plus you got guise and sorc shoes buffed to 18 pen and Void staff is 40 goddamn percent now. Mages are stronger than they were before offensively but people just keep whining about "muh Mpen reds".

You wont be building void staff till 25 min into the game. You also wont build sorc until after you finish your core item.

In the end, Mages early was nerfed. Sure there are extra armor to all champs but that is negated by everyone getting extra ad.

In the end there is nothing new.

Also haunting did not get any magic pen. So in the end Riot did not even compensate for magic pen lost. Pen is only going to be most useful early, and that usefulness was nerfed. Is mages late going to be as strong as adc now? Nope.

GrievousFetusOct 16, 201726 votes

mages early was nerfed

Except for the part where the removal of MR runes is actually a BUFF even counting the complimentary removal of Mpen runes.

AhrisOct 16, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Except for the part where the removal of MR runes is actually a BUFF even counting the complimentary removal of Mpen runes.

So did every champ in game lose 8 MR which is the basic amount of magic pen mages utilize? Or even 20 for champs like Brand and Katarina?

In the end it is not a buff for the amount of Magic Pen lost. Also the fact that AD champs are getting AD and armor while APs only get HP really reflects favortism.

GrievousFetusOct 16, 201732 votes

so did every champ in the game lose 8 MR

every champ in the game lost TWELVE MR. Meanwhile mages only lost 7.8 Mpen. It's objectively a net buff.

wildfox99Oct 16, 20175 votes

you didn't count "precision" which gives magic penetration as well,even masteries got removed

plus don't forget that if they removed (for example) 10 armor and 10 lethality is still a buff for ad,because for negating those 10 armor you'd need lvl 18

AhrisOct 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

every champ in the game lost TWELVE MR. Meanwhile mages only lost 7.8 Mpen. It's objectively a net buff.

Oh 12? Didnt know. Thought was like 4 less or something. Guess i was wrong.

Also source? Just to be sure.

HalcyonDwellerOct 16, 20173 votes

Source is MR runes. They're going away. Thus, everyone loses MR.

AhrisOct 16, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Source is MR runes. They're going away. Thus, everyone loses MR.

So is Armor runes going away. So are Magic Pen runes. So are AP runes, So are CDR runes.

In the end, nothing much will change. Magic Pen removed means, even if you have low MR, you will do as much or less than before. Unless Riot gives base AP to every mage, than it will overall be a nerf.

It is clearly unfair when Riot gives AD champs both AD and armor and Mages are only given health per lvl.

HalcyonDwellerOct 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So is Armor runes going away. So are Magic Pen runes. So are AP runes, So are CDR runes.

So? That's irrelevant to the point.

In the end, nothing much will change. Magic Pen removed means, even if you have low MR, you will do as much or less than before. Unless Riot gives base AP to every mage, than it will overall be a nerf.

Net impact will still be more damage for mages. because enemies will have less MR even after Magic Pen calculations. It was standard to bring MR runes for pretty much everyone. Except for a few specific cases. Now that MR runes will be gone along with MPen runes, the net effect is less damage reduction against magic damage for everyone.

It is clearly unfair when Riot gives AD champs both AD and armor and Mages are only given health per lvl.

Riot has stated they will be giving AD to non-ad champions as well to help with last hitting and such. Claiming that they are unfairly giving it to AD champions only is kind of silly.

wildfox99Oct 16, 20173 votes

Net impact will still be more damage for mages. because enemies will have less MR even after Magic Pen calculations. It was standard to bring MR runes for pretty much everyone. Except for a few specific cases. Now that MR runes will be gone along with MPen runes, the net effect is less damage reduction against magic damage for everyone.

well,if your opponents have 12 less MR and you have 12 less magic penetration is exatly the same

Riot has stated they will be giving AD to non-ad champions as well to help with last hitting and such. Claiming that they are unfairly giving it to AD champions only is kind of silly.

actually they only buffed AD champion,as AP is a nightmare last hitting,and in any case AD would benefit in terms of damange output,AP wouldn't what if they add some base AP and non-champion take damage on hit based on your AP? or just adding 5 on hit damage vs minions to the doran ring (like the doran shield)?

HalcyonDwellerOct 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

well,if your opponents have 12 less MR and you have 12 less magic penetration is exatly the same

My mistake. Regardless, Ahris's complaint that "Mages will deal less damage" is unfounded.

actually they only buffed AD champion,as AP is a nightmare last hitting,and in any case AD would benefit in terms of damange output,AP wouldn't

I was paraphrasing. I heard they were adding last-hitting damage, not straight ad.

what if they add some base AP and non-champion take damage on hit based on your AP? or just adding 5 on hit damage vs minions to the doran ring (like the doran shield)?

I'm not opposed to such changes.

wildfox99Oct 16, 20173 votes

Ahris's complaint that "Mages will deal less damage" is unfounded.

i'm playing on pbe and i can say that is true (it's the pbe,ofc everything is unbalanced i know that,but the point is that his reasoning is right)

I was paraphrasing. I heard they were adding last-hitting damage, not straight ad.

they didn't do anything for compensating yet

AhrisOct 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So? That's irrelevant to the point.

Net impact will still be more damage for mages. because enemies will have less MR even after Magic Pen calculations. It was standard to bring MR runes for pretty much everyone. Except for a few specific cases. Now that MR runes will be gone along with MPen runes, the net effect is less damage reduction against magic damage for everyone.

Riot has stated they will be giving AD to non-ad champions as well to help with last hitting and such. Claiming that they are unfairly giving it to AD champions only is kind of silly.

Ap champs need last hitting because the mastery to help them do it is gone? Also the wave clear from the ap runes is also gone. Where is the buffs for this?

2Charmnot2CharmOct 17, 20172 votes

Riot already made a global buff to every player in the game doing 5+ damage to minions.

JorenciceOct 16, 201714 votes

{quoted}

every champ in the game lost TWELVE MR. Meanwhile mages only lost 7.8 Mpen. It's objectively a net buff.

Psh. 20 magic pen rune pages ftw.

Very Hard EngageOct 16, 20179 votes

not when you factor in all the raw % you lose from the tree itself. its more or less the same the same as before but any AD items that get bought by the enemy are more significant as mages lack the same opportunity.

no1 is talking about ap pen. were talking about giving everyone flat hp, thats what mages already struggle with due to lack of high AP build pathways. dealing a fractional difference does not create the ~200 to 400 damage difference a large AP build would offer against high HP targets who built full armor and no MR.

im telling you outright, mages are getting shafted here. any perceived compensation is too light due to the nature of hp vs ap. hp beats out ap.

you take someones full burst and you win on the spot because they're now helpless until their cooldowns are done.

because you now get to maul on them with auto attacks

pen has only ever been good on squishies with low values anyway. item counter builds offer ramping that cant be matched already.... and pen being downright mandatory as is to handle counterbuilds.

wildfox99Oct 16, 20175 votes

you lost 12 magic penetration from runes and maestries when enemies have 12 less mr,that's even

edit : as someone upvoted this i think someone could have missunderstood what i meant (because everyone is upvoting the ones which says AD didn't get buffed at all),i meant AP got even (+12 MP -12MR),but AD got buffed : lethality needs to scale so removing 10 AR and 10MR isn't the same (now they have what they are supposed to have at lvl 18 by lvl 1),even if it would be even still they got both defensive and offensive buff,when AP got only a defensive buff

don't forget then that actually there are no conpensation for the lack of savagery,actually as AP is really hard farming

you can downvote this guys (ofc without saying why you disagree),but the fact is actually on PBE yasuo,zed,talon and others are so OP and frustrating,actually you have to bann or pick them,that's not an opinion whoever is playing on pbe can say that,so what ahris is saying could be right at all

Romans VI XXIIIOct 16, 20175 votes

But ADs get Armor/MR and Lethality buffs? Seems fair

TortungaOct 16, 20172 votes

I think the mage changed are still coming, as compensating mages for the runes they lost is just a lot more challenging then AD champions. While you can just give every AD champ some more base AD, you cannot do the same for mages as it would look weird; You normally start with 0 AP/CDR/Magic pen (if you didn't had any runes/masteries).

The only way to compensate mages properly is to buff the abilities slightly from each champions, 1 by 1. That's just going to take some time.

I might be completely wrong, and they just said 'screw mages!', but as long as it's still on the PBE I will assume mage changes are coming.

KaìjuOct 16, 201712 votes

Didn't most mid layers take health because you didn't know if you were against an AD or AP? Everyone I know who lays mid said they always took health over armor.

wildfox99Oct 16, 201718 votes

nope,there are always vs AP (HP) and vs AD (AR) runes

Glory ln DeathOct 16, 20175 votes

And Riot could only give them compensation for 1 of those, so they gave them the stat that helps in both match-ups, rather than just vs AD.

wildfox99Oct 16, 20173 votes

yes but AR is more effective than HP when you are aganist an AD,so that's an indirect buff to every AD champion plus AD got both defensive and offensive stats,when AP only a defensive one

Glory ln DeathOct 16, 20172 votes

Yes, but health is more effective than armor when you're against an AP champion, and mid lane is AP ~70% of the time. As well, AD midlaners lose their MR and Lethality runes, which lowers both their defense and offense. With the AD buffs, they'll be about even with their current strength. Because of the loss of those stats, their early game will be weaker than it currently is against AP champs - they will take more damage because of the reduced MR and will, at best, deal the same damage as live to their opponent.

Currently, most AD midlaners take at least 9 Lethality from runes, plus 6 from masteries. That means they are completely negating Mages' 9 bonus armor from level 1, and scaling up even more through the game. Effectively, you have the same armor as before, plus extra health.

HeresyHorusOct 16, 20171 votes

As well, AD midlaners lose their MR and Lethality runes, which lowers both their defense and offense

Even if MR is reduced, Mages are still gated by their CDs and u can dodge their skillshots to make them deal 0 damage with them ...

on CD/dodge = 0 damage, whether u have 100 or -100 MR.

How can u dodge Lucian Sivir Quinn or any AD mid autos or reliable abilities ? ...

Do u see the difference now between lowering armor and lowering mr ?

[sg-ezreal]

Glory ln DeathOct 17, 20172 votes

Only Lucian from your example is a midlaner, and he's legit garbage outside of pro play right now (44% winrate). Nearly every other AD midlaner is melee and relies largely on skillshot abilities to poke and deal damage except during all-ins, so they have the exact same counter as mage skillshots.

As well, like I explained in the reply to wildfox99, mages are actually getting buffed when it comes to armor against AD midlaners. Most AD midlaners take 14.4 Lethality from runes and 6 from masteries, giving them 12 flat armor pen at level 1. Mages take 9 armor from runes, leaving them at a deficit of -3 armor. Once runes and masteries get removed, they end up with exactly their base armor, which is 3 higher than what they were working with before. Meanwhile, AD mids are only getting the AD and armor they lost from runes.

Yes, mages can miss their damage. But that isn't anything new. Lower effective MR on their enemies is still a buff. Saying it isn't a buff because it's not reliable is like saying that doubling the base damage and scaling on a skillshot ability isn't a buff because it can miss. This is two buffs for Mage vs AD in the laning phase - they will deal more damage to their opponents because of the lower effective MR, and their AD opponents will deal less damage to the mages because of their higher effective Armor.

Do you see the difference between knee-jerk reactions and careful analysis, now?

HeresyHorusOct 17, 20172 votes

Only Lucian from your example is a midlaner, and he's legit garbage outside of pro play right now (44% winrate).

Pick rates alone mean nothing, old Leblanc Talon Poppy Sion Urgot were beyond broken for years, yet they were massively underplayed.

Once they appeared in LCS or got picked by a famous streamer they ended up being a pick/ban in every match ... Ezreal too

Wait the same to happen to Quinn Sivir and other ADs like Gangplank Katarina mid ...

Also having bad win rates on an unpopular champ ( Lucian pick rate mid is 2.7 according to lolalytics ) in a team game doesn't mean that champ is weak.

He might have been stomping his lane so hard but ultimately lost cuz the rest of his team picked weaker champs or the rest of his enemy team picked stronger champs.

Too many variables to look at for u to come here and simply generalize all the shit up like u did ...

mages are actually getting buffed

AP Mages :

Lost AP from runes with no compensation.
Lost MPen from runes with no compensation ( only AP Assassins can make use of Sudden Impact ).
Lost Armor form runes with lesser compensation ( HP ).

ADs :

Lost AD from runes with equal compensation ( base AD + abilities ).
Lost ArPen with lesser compensation ( most AD & ADCs can use Sudden Impact, 10 lethality is better than nothing like what Mages got ).
Lost MR with greater compensation ( Nullifying Orb ).

Now, add those to the following to get the bigger picture :

Press the Attack + Last Stand + Nullifying Orb + / combo will be RETARDED.
Electrocute + Dark Harvest damage will be ADAPTIVE, this gonna be huge for ADs.
Only MPen got buffed ( no buff ), and no way u are going to rush as a Mage.
is going to get a nice nerf, a retard can predict it just by looking at Manaflow Band and we all know what resembles for Mages.
AP : AD ratio is heavily in AD favor, u didn't have to get + 3 items to more AP than what AD champs have in AD before, now u cant + have worse scalings + no DFG while ADs have better scaling + + Crits and rival most Mages even in Utility.
Yes, mages can miss their damage
ADs, in addition to their lost AD from runes, can still get more starting AD from second rune tree.

Do you see the difference between knee-jerk reactions and careful analysis, now?

Sure, i can see it very clearly ... [sg-ezreal]

wildfox99Oct 16, 20171 votes

don't forget even AD runes got removed,and lethality need levels for scaling, so removing 10 armor and 10 lethality for example gives them a nice advantage since they get what they would get al lvl 18 from lvl 1 so it's an indirect buff AP lost magic penetration runes/maestries but enemies loses MR as well,so that's even (exatly -12 MR but -12 magic penetration),but on top of that AD get a damage buff

Glory ln DeathOct 17, 20173 votes

Except it is not a case of -10 armor, -10 lethality. Mages are losing 9 armor from runes, and AD mids are losing 15 lethality from runes and masteries (9 flat armor pen at level 1). That is a completely neutral change. Mages will literally be facing AD mids with the exact same amount of effective armor as they currently are, plus they will have higher scaling health.

Meanwhile, mages are losing 9.5 magic pen at level one from runes and masteries, while AD mids are losing 12 magic resist. AD mids are not receiving MR or health buffs, meaning they will have 2.5 less effective MR than they currently have - a buff for mages.

As far as early laning phase goes, this is actually good for most Mage vs AD match-ups.

Edit: Hey, would you look at that - I did some more research, and it turns out that I was wrong! AD mids aren't losing 9 Lethality from runes and 6 from masteries! They're losing 14.4 from runes and 6 from masteries! Meaning 20.4 total Lethality lost, which is 12 flat pen at level 1!

So, again, mages are getting buffed by these changes, because they're actually starting the game with 3 more effective armor than previously!

SpecterVonBarenOct 16, 20172 votes

The counter argument to that is that most defensive mage items give health with only one giving armor. By increasing armor you would increase the effectiveness of the health mages already build and which is already the best way to deal with most mages.

Glory ln DeathOct 17, 20178 votes

Mages are getting an indirect armor buff.

Most AD midlaners (except for garbage ones like Lucian) take 14.4 Lethality from runes and 6 from masteries, giving them 12 flat armor pen at level 1. They are completely losing that. Mages built 9 armor, which they are also losing.

Take a mage with 20 base armor. They used 9 armor from runes, giving them 29. Now, along comes a Talon who has 12 flat armor pen at level 1. Against him, the mage only has 17 effective armor - 3 lower than their base.

Now, take that same situation in Season 8, after armor and lethality runes have been removed. The mage has 20 base armor. Now, the Talon has no armor pen from lethality runes, meaning the mage still has 20 effective armor.

Hey, would you look at that! That's 3 more effective armor than on live!

LauchmelderOct 16, 20174 votes

I take neither because I play like a b*tch. Gotta take the offensive stats.

ShaydroxOct 16, 20179 votes

I've read this a lot on the boards, and I was wondering why ap mids aren't getting armour too. But then I realised something else was happening too.

With the removal of masteries, we're losing a lot of percentage damage increases. I completely forgot to factor that in. And then I read this riot comment: "to TL;DR the problem with ~~some~~ context I have: We did some systematic DPS testing, and squishy vs squishy damage was noticeably lower than it was on live (somewhere from 10-12% lower) and so these Void/Lethality changes are a starting point to tune them back towards their "correct" spot."

Taken from: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/75rd7n/1011_pbe_update/do8cx7b/

Squishy damage vs other squishies is all around just worse. With that in mind, since both lethality and mpen are getting buffed, and I think Riot's making the right call by not giving armour/mr to midlaners, since their damage to each other is already lower.

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 16, 20178 votes

{quoted}

riot is not going to compensate ap midlaners for the removal of armor runes. i would like to thank riot personally for planning to give us another season of yasuo and zed permabanned from the game.

lol its sad because its true

hopeful4Oct 16, 20177 votes

If you were permabanning Yasuo and Zed this season you were doing something wrong

SB ArneemanOct 18, 20172 votes

Banning Zed is fine. At least in plat, most ppl playing him have him as one of their main champions so they play him decently. Duskblade makes him basically target oneshot you with R. He's also got one of the best lanes for an assassin. Yasuo players generally play over aggressive and feed so that's not a big problem though

Elemental LuxOct 16, 20176 votes

On the PBE I start with about 27 AP at level with 1 the dorans ring. That plus loss of MR runes is helps. Standard AP now is 35 at level 1. Don’t ignore the stats from your rune page and the loss of armor and mr runes to boost your power. I mean for example with master Yi, you start with 1.09 attack speed in the jungle on the PBE. His base ad got buffed so he does pretty good. Just be patient is all I’m saying.

Need Gold 4 TentOct 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elemental Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-16T16:41:27.051+0000)

On the PBE I start with about 27 AP at level with 1 the dorans ring. That plus loss of MR runes is helps. Standard AP now is 35 at level 1. Don’t ignore the stats from your rune page and the loss of armor and mr runes to boost your power. I mean for example with master Yi, you start with 1.09 attack speed in the jungle on the PBE. His base ad got buffed so he does pretty good. Just be patient is all I’m saying.

I was initially horrified they didn't give yi base attack speed, until I noticed my starting attack speed on pbe was roughly the same as my 29% page somehow. I think it's the machete.

AimléssOct 17, 20176 votes

The problem here is that every assassin is gonna get the magic shield rune, so ap champs, especially early game ones are gonna get outshined hard by the Zeds and Talons of the world.

FloofzOct 16, 20173 votes

Id just like to pt out no1 seems to mention that going sorcery or domination or even inspiration gives you like 20-30 base ap add dorans and that's 45... and that's without any actual runes selected that's base just for choosing said tree as ur primary ive had games level 1 coming out of the gate with 60ap its not hard. =P. Coming from someone whos played pbe magic damage is really really strong early game since no one has mr and the best u get is the 4 mr early from resolve which isn't that great. AD tends to feel lackluster early and AP mids have multiple rune options available in several trees to combat ad mids.

ModAcademy KaynOct 16, 20172 votes

Are AD mids getting compensated for MR Runes? If not, I see no problem.

PrinceOfStormsOct 17, 20173 votes

AD mids already have a ton more survivability than AP mids what with Hexdrinker being a hard counter to 95% of AP mids.

Yura May ZingOct 17, 20171 votes

Extra magic resistance? No not necessarily, but, they do have access to Nullifying Orb, which basically gives them a mini hexdrinker passive, that also happens to scale with their damage so yeah...

ModAcademy KaynOct 17, 20171 votes

I still don't see a problem. Most AD mids are melee anyways, I think they deserve a bit more breathing room, considering they're almost always in range of a mages abilities, with the addition of auto attack bullying.

PrinceOfStormsOct 18, 20171 votes

AD mids don't need more breathing room considering how many tools they have to shit on AP mids while the reverse is not true. AP mids also don't deal very much AA damage.

ModAcademy KaynOct 18, 20171 votes

Now what "Tools" are those? Mobility? Hexdrinker? I honestly think you're underestimating just how significant being Ranged is.