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i think you should drop the true damage conversion on infinity edge.

Critmaster Garen··3 votes·1,786 views

i dont know if the true damage mechanic should be replaced with something else, but it doesnt seem healthy.

why not make it additional bonus armor penetration on critical strikes instead?

its like marskmen got quadrupel compensated for the lost 50% bonus on critical strikes.

  • 20% to 50% more crit in their standart builds, depending if they "just" bought one or two zeal items with i.e. before
  • 10 more ad
  • 20% true damage conversion

and then there is the last whisper change, which will make them penetrate about an additional 30 base armor.

marksmen really dont need more damage against fighters and tanks. they just need a nerf of their burst to squishies

the price increase on crit items had to happen anyways, since zeal items just were too cheap for the longest time, which caused marksmen itemization to be 500 to 1000 gold cheaper than that of other carries, which made no sense considering that marksmen outscale everyone.

18 Comments

Hethalean2 votes

Nay! They should continue to add true dmg to everything! lol

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Nay! They should continue to add true dmg to everything! lol

i think doing something like yasuos ult, and making it 30% bonus armor penetration on crits or something like that makes more sense.

giving marksmen true damage conversion on their crits seems like the nuclear option to me, since it doesnt just bypass resistances, but also % damage reduction like item 3047 item 3143 and abilities in champion kits.

Eedat2 votes

They really don't get double critical in their build until a third crit item because IE doesnt give any crit now

So if you have Shiv + IE you now have 60% crit as opposed to 50% but the items now cost more too. The true damage passive is much less effective against squishies too. All in all they're losing burst against squishies

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

They really don't get double critical in their build until a third crit item because IE doesnt give any crit now

So if you have Shiv + IE you now have 60% crit as opposed to 50% but the items now cost more too. The true damage passive is much less effective against squishies too. All in all they're losing burst against squishies

the tue damage kicks in at around 60 armor already.

so its already going to fuck over fighters and deal more damage than the old infinity edge around mid game. so yea. the entire point was to nerf the adc 2 item power spike.

against a lot of champions (not just tanks), its actually become stronger.

TheSandQrator1 votes

After running some numbers, you would take more damage from a new IE crit than an old one, at 125 armour (post armour reductions), instead of 60ish. (Assuming other values, i.e. attacker's AD, defender's armour, stay the same.) Here's the maths that I ran, please feel free to take a look.

I'd like the break point to be a bit higher than that, as that's often a champion's base armour @ level 18, plus one finished armour item (not counting Ninja Tabi), but there's not much they can do about that without actually hitting critical strike's base multipliers.

If it would have broken even at 60 armour I'd have thrown a goddamned fit, that's a huge buff to the rightclickers and nobody is allowed to like that ever.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

After running some numbers, you would take more damage from a new IE crit than an old one, at 125 armour, instead of 60ish. Here's the maths that I ran, please feel free to take a look.

I'd like the break point to be a bit higher than that, as that's often a champion's base armour @ level 18, plus one finished armour item (not counting Ninja Tabi), but there's not much they can do about that without actually hitting critical strike's base multipliers.

If it would have broken even at 60 armour I'd have thrown a goddamned fit, that's a huge buff to the rightclickers and nobody is allowed to like that ever.

ill take a look at this, but id still like the change to bonus armor penetration to keep % damage reduction abilities worthwile.

these abilities are often very short windowed in champion kits, and theyre supposed to absorb a lot of damage. the change to bonus armor pen would have a similar effect without impacting these abilities.

there are a couple of fighters who are reliant on them and who shouldnt just have them partially invalidated. Irelia Warwick Garen on top of my head.

TheSandQrator1 votes

Yeah, I'd only noticed your other post regarding true damage punching through other mitigation factors that isn't just more raw health and shields, those factors hadn't even crossed my mind, thanks for pointing it out!

Nut on my Butt1 votes

It's basically the same concept, just different numbers tuning and making it true damage instead of armor pen makes the impact more visible for players.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daddy Issues,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnsEj7x6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-03T16:51:40.438+0000)

It's basically the same concept, just different numbers tuning and making it true damage instead of armor pen makes the impact more visible for players.

true damage bypasses % damage reduction. bonus armor penetration would only reduce the effectiveness of armor stacking. there is a big difference.

champion abilities that are supposed to reduce a lot of damage are less effective. also item 3047 passive and item 3143 are a lot less effective against adc.

Vid the Strange1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnsEj7x6,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-05-03T16:55:31.029+0000)

true damage bypasses % damage reduction.

The other 80% of their damage, which is still physical damage, does not.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vid the Strange,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnsEj7x6,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T17:00:15.903+0000)

The other 80% of their damage, which is still physical damage, does not.

it still gives them a baseline damage buff against fighters everyone with more than 62 armor, and makes champion abilities that are supposed to largely reduce incoming damage for short windows a lot less effective.

like youre still going to get hit for 600 to 800 true damage by a 4th jhin shot with the new items, even if you have 90% damage reduction like alistar or parry it with a garen w. this is a bit over the top imo.

i dont know about you, but i dont feel like getting hit by a darius ult worth in damage every 10 seconds, and 200 true damage on every other shot.

im not even kidding with those numbers. people have tested it on the pbe, and those numbers are achievable.

TheSandQrator1 votes

I'd actually not even thought about Ninja Tabi and Randuin's Omen being less effective vs IE-building rightclickers, huh. Let's not forget about Phantom Dancer and maybe even Death's Dance as well.

... That's actually more significant than I thought it would have been. It negates the countermeasures against them a little bit. Hmn.

saltran1 votes

I don't have the source from a Rioter that said that Randuin will reduce the same dmg with the new IE, something like Randuin reduces the dmg FIRST and the dmg that goes through has 20% as true dmg.

Is a weird interaction indeed, similar for Tabis.

Vei1 votes

the percent true damage really isn't a big deal because its effectively true armor pen... but its only 20% of damage - .-

ReshiKillim1 votes

Just FYI, Rito's current intent is for Tabi's and Randuin's to both apply before Infinity Edge true damage conversion.

So Tabi's and Randuin's are actually more effective vs crit than live, as they stack additively, because the removed damage amp from infinity edge isn't reducing it to an effective -7% crit damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Just FYI, Rito's current intent is for Tabi's and Randuin's to both apply before Infinity Edge true damage conversion.

So Tabi's and Randuin's are actually more effective vs crit than live, as they stack additively, because the removed damage amp from infinity edge isn't reducing it to an effective -7% crit damage.

thats honestly even weirder. its like theyre swapping the rules of the game around to make way for this mechanic. because so far in every other instance, true damage ignores % damage reduction.

they could accomplish the same with just turning the true damage into bonus armor pen, without making fighter defensive tools or tabi or randuins less useful.

ReshiKillim1 votes

It makes sense to me, mechanically speaking. Since it goes > Take X damage > Is it a crit Y/N > If yes, double the amount > Damage is a critical strike > Apply Randuin's reduction > Damage source is a basic attack > Apply Tabi's damage reduction > Calculate critical damage after reduction > Convert 20% to true damage. Or something like that.

Though that's probably my experience with modding talking.

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