Graves is a better ADC botlane than Lucian

ı Sona ı·Jan 13, 2019·6 votes·3,050 views

Well, what reasons?

Both auto based passive

Both have dashes that also have an auto attack based effect.

Both have straight line ults

Straight line abilities

Both have small area damage abilities

EXCEPT

Graves gets armor with his dash that can keep stacking the more he dashes in a fight.

Graves straight line damage skill also has an extra T shape at the end for a wider area, and does a second wave of damage.

His small area attack is a slow and a blind that can be shot through minions, Lucians can be blocked by minions and provides no real CC.

Lucian gets a double tap passive, Graves auto attacks 2-3 times in 1 auto attack basically.

Graves' straight line ult turns into area damage at the end of it, while lucians ult only hits 1 target at a time.

Graves' ult is a giant burst damage while Lucian's is lots of little hits over time which is more easily mitigated with armor.

These all point to the conclusion that Graves > Lucian.

[sona-playing]

30 Comments

Bears Dont CareJan 13, 20196 votes

No.

LhuhzJan 13, 20193 votes

KFCeytronJan 13, 20193 votes

Highlighting the most egregious errors:

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-13T09:19:26.354+0000)

Lucian gets a double tap passive, Graves auto attacks 2-3 times in 1 auto attack basically.

The maximum total damage Graves can do in one auto is 140% of his AD (at level 1) scaling to 200% of his AD (at level 18), and that's if all pellets hit the target, meaning basically melee range.

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-13T09:19:26.354+0000)

Graves' ult is a giant burst damage while Lucian's is lots of little hits over time which is more easily mitigated with armor.

I'm gonna go ahead and link to a wiki page that explains how armor works.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Basically, it reduces damage by a percentage, not a flat value. Armor mitigates exactly as much damage from one hit for X damage as it does from two hits that each do X/2 damage.

Also, Graves has an autoattack range of 425 while Lucian's is 500, and Lucian's autos deal full damage at any range and can't be blocked, while Graves' autos will deal anywhere from 70%-200% AD depending on how many pellets hit and what level he is.

Once again, and possibly most importantly for lane Graves: his autos can be blocked. See a minion at low health in the middle of the pack that you'd like to autoattack to earn some gold? YOU CAN'T. This is why Graves is now a jungler.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 13, 20192 votes

Lucian is far better against tanks (due to his passive letting him proc BorK twice), has better effective range (Since Graves' passive requires him to be within basically melee range to hit all the bullets), is more mobile overall (due to the MS gain from whatever ability it was), and can actually auto past minions.

I lit your babyJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Lucian is far better against tanks (due to his passive letting him proc BorK twice), has better effective range (Since Graves' passive requires him to be within basically melee range to hit all the bullets), is more mobile overall (due to the MS gain from whatever ability it was), and can actually auto past minions.

_Lucian is far better against tanks _ Ultra mega facepalm. Lucian is worst shit in the game against tanks. i bet, adc janna willl kill tank faster, than lucian.

TormentulaJan 13, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=I lit your baby,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-13T09:31:24.664+0000)

_Lucian is far better against tanks _ Ultra mega facepalm. Lucian is worst shit in the game against tanks. i bet, adc janna willl kill tank faster, than lucian.

It all depends on itemization, anybody that rushes item 3153 item 3071 is pretty good for tanks. Ironically the janna statement falls flat because she couldn't proc Black Cleaver's passive like luc can.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 13, 20191 votes

inb4 AD Janna

I lit your babyJan 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It all depends on itemization, anybody that rushes is pretty good for tanks. Ironically the janna statement falls flat because she couldn't proc Black Cleaver's passive like luc can.

It's not depends op itemization, even with this stuff + last whispers he barely scratches tank's back.

Slam DùnkJan 13, 20191 votes

lucian is just a rework of old graves in a way lel

TormentulaJan 13, 20191 votes

Graves doesn't outclass lucian due to his passive and his basic attack range.

425 range in bot lane just isn't going to cut it, you could literally get poked out or kited by any other ADC in bot lane, and on top of this, Grave's basic attacks can be blocked by minions. Its why you don't see melees in bot lane, but when you do they usually have some kind of damage migitation, healing, or were just so stupid broken they can get away with it (irelia).

Grave's passive also makes it nearly impossible to freeze or have wave control, even last hitting requires a lot more effort.

DynikusJan 13, 20191 votes

His range is awful, he has bad poke in comparison, and his autos are blocked by minions.

ı Sona ıJan 13, 20191 votes

Of all the people saying Lucian is a better ADC than Graves, how many of you have actually done a 1 v 1 between Lucian and Graves?

Better yet, how many of you have actually played ADC Graves this season?

If you're saying Graves isn't a good ADC and haven't actually played him ADC to make that determination, you aren't making a fair argument.

Lucian can't poke you if he's blinded. Dashes out of it? Well since he dashed out of it to poke you just dash into him, get that double armor buff from True Grit, auto attack him in the face with full bullet blasts, q r done.

[sona-playing]

Bears Dont CareJan 13, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-13T10:12:45.900+0000)

Of all the people saying Lucian is a better ADC than Graves, how many of you have actually done a 1 v 1 between Lucian and Graves?

Sona are you trolling?

Better yet, how many of you have actually played ADC Graves this season?

Very few would ever consider taking graves down to botlane because his reduced range is a hindrance and tends to result in him getting poked out of lane. it is far safer to take graves into the jungle where he can get solo gold and exp, and make use of his powerful burst damage for ganks.

If you're saying Graves isn't a good ADC and haven't actually played him ADC to make that determination, you aren't making a fair argument.

That is a fallacy/ "You haven't done this therefore, how can you know whether or not it is good?"

I don't need to have a brick fall on my head to know it can kill me. Graves simply does not possess the tools necessary to handle other champions.

Lucian can't poke you if he's blinded. Dashes out of it? Well since he dashed out of it to poke you just dash into him, get that double armor buff from True Grit, auto attack him in the face with full bullet blasts, q r done.

[sona-playing]

Alternatively, why wouldnt he just abuse your cooldowns and continue poking you down until he gets to the point where he feels like engaging on you? Graves is not a champion suited to sieging like other champions.

ı Sona ıJan 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-01-13T10:17:09.165+0000)

Alternatively, why wouldnt he just abuse your cooldowns and continue poking you down until he gets to the point where he feels like engaging on you? Graves is not a champion suited to sieging like other champions.

Why would he just "poke" you? That's the nature of range and the bot lane. You're on one side, the enemy is on the other, and there are these things called "minions" in the middle. What happens when you "poke" someone? Then the minions attack the champion instead of the enemy, causing counter damage and pushing the lane to your side, where they have to worry about over extension and being ganked.

Being the nature of a 2 v 2 lane they also are threatened by the counter poke of the support as well. Nami? Fiddle? Brand? Soraka? All of them fine counter pokers and zoners.

Now that the "poked out of lane" argument has been made invalid, what else is the issue? I've found no fault in farming with Graves so far, but maybe its because I've taken the time to understand the nature of my own auto attacks to be able to last hit with them more aptly than others would choose to.

The fun part about being pushed near under turret is how easily you can manage the wave there since you can push back minions with auto attacks.

KFCeytronJan 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-13T10:12:45.900+0000)

Of all the people saying Lucian is a better ADC than Graves, how many of you have actually done a 1 v 1 between Lucian and Graves?

Better yet, how many of you have actually played ADC Graves this season?

If you're saying Graves isn't a good ADC and haven't actually played him ADC to make that determination, you aren't making a fair argument.

Lucian can't poke you if he's blinded. Dashes out of it? Well since he dashed out of it to poke you just dash into him, get that double armor buff from True Grit, auto attack him in the face with full bullet blasts, q r done.

[sona-playing]

Muh dude...

"1v1 me" isn't what makes a good ADC. Being able to actually CS at a reasonable rate is kind of key. And the rest of your argument there would be equally applicable to assassins. Is Zed a better ADC than Sivir, because as soon as you bait/waste her E you just WRQER and spam laugh?

Are you actually trolling? That's not like you.

LhuhzJan 13, 20193 votes

Graves cant lane on Botlane due to how his aa work if the enemy botlane has a brain.

HàrrowRJan 13, 20191 votes

It happened to me a couple of times that some bad Graves comes to gank me and i kill him without taking almost any damage by kiting around the minions, the same thing would happen in a normal lane, not to mention longer range bullies would demolish him, Graves going up against Cait/Zyra combo

LhuhzJan 13, 20191 votes

You dont need to go to a Caitlyn, hell a Vayne could lane bully Graves

HammermancerJan 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-13T10:12:45.900+0000)

Of all the people saying Lucian is a better ADC than Graves, how many of you have actually done a 1 v 1 between Lucian and Graves?

Better yet, how many of you have actually played ADC Graves this season?

It literally only works with taric against double melee

If you're saying Graves isn't a good ADC and haven't actually played him ADC to make that determination, you aren't making a fair argument.

Graves is a bad adc because his passive makes him miss cs regardless of skill, his autos cant target past minions and can be blocked

And his low range makes him terrible for teamfights as the 'consistent reliable damage backline

Lucian can't poke you if he's blinded. Dashes out of it? Well since he dashed out of it to poke you just dash into him, get that double armor buff from True Grit, auto attack him in the face with full bullet blasts, q r done.

[sona-playing]

ı Sona ıJan 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It literally only works with taric against double melee

Graves is a bad adc because his passive makes him miss cs regardless of skill, his autos cant target past minions and can be blocked

And his low range makes him terrible for teamfights as the 'consistent reliable damage backline

Only work with a Taric and Only works if the enemy is both melee bot? That seems a bit much. Doesn't sound true at all.

I'm not sure you're sure what you're saying about cs'ing. Exactly how do you imagine the nature of minion waves? They all focus the ones farthest in the back? I have on problem cs'ing, maybe it just requires more practice.

Dash in, double armor buff, blind, auto, auto, dash again for more armor, chase em down, r em to death. How about try it first as adc then judge.

KFCeytronJan 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=000700030000,timestamp=2019-01-13T23:45:33.427+0000)

Only work with a Taric and Only works if the enemy is both melee bot? That seems a bit much. Doesn't sound true at all.

I'm not sure you're sure what you're saying about cs'ing. Exactly how do you imagine the nature of minion waves? They all focus the ones farthest in the back? I have on problem cs'ing, maybe it just requires more practice.

Dash in, double armor buff, blind, auto, auto, dash again for more armor, chase em down, r em to death. How about try it first as adc then judge.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/graves

Highest WR role is jungle at 51%; lowest WR role is ADC at 45.9%. Graves ADC (current Graves, anyway) has been tried enough to demonstrate that it's bad, for the reasons outlined here.

ı Sona ıJan 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/graves

Highest WR role is jungle at 51%; lowest WR role is ADC at 45.9%. Graves ADC (current Graves, anyway) has been tried enough to demonstrate that it's bad, for the reasons outlined here.

Doesn't Akali have a questionable win rate? Does that make her bad? Gotta let go of these false metrics and actually do the ground work yourself so you have all the information in the conversation. That some people have lost more than won games with Graves ADC doesn't mean Graves ADC is bad.

KFCeytronJan 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=00070003000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-14T06:34:52.175+0000)

Doesn't Akali have a questionable win rate? Does that make her bad? Gotta let go of these false metrics and actually do the ground work yourself so you have all the information in the conversation. That some people have lost more than won games with Graves ADC doesn't mean Graves ADC is bad.

Yes, Akali is bad. She's also really annoying for many people to play against, though, so she's frequently banned. What you call "false metrics" (fake news?) are more commonly known as "evidence," and what you call "doing the ground work yourself" is more commonly known as "anecdotal evidence with a tiny sample size."

If you're going to dismiss anything that goes against your misplaced conjectures just so you can keep holding onto your faith in Graves ADC, there's no point trying to have a conversation.

ı Sona ıJan 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes, Akali is bad. She's also really annoying for many people to play against, though, so she's frequently banned. What you call "false metrics" (fake news?) are more commonly known as "evidence," and what you call "doing the ground work yourself" is more commonly known as "anecdotal evidence with a tiny sample size."

If you're going to dismiss anything that goes against your misplaced conjectures just so you can keep holding onto your faith in Graves ADC, there's no point trying to have a conversation.

They also say 70% of all statistics are made up or heavily biased (see what I did there). If you ask 100 people with chocolate allergies if they like vanilla or chocolate more, does that mean there is a growing trend of people preferring vanilla over chocolate? No, biased information.

Now, tell me about Graves ADC'ing you've been doing in the most recent patches to come up with a fair an unbiased argument after having studied the fact through actual trial and use.

KFCeytronJan 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=0007000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-14T07:40:49.186+0000)

They also say 70% of all statistics are made up or heavily biased (see what I did there). If you ask 100 people with chocolate allergies if they like vanilla or chocolate more, does that mean there is a growing trend of people preferring vanilla over chocolate? No, biased information.

Now, tell me about Graves ADC'ing you've been doing in the most recent patches to come up with a fair an unbiased argument after having studied the fact through actual trial and use.

I like how the statistics that disprove your idea are bad but you'd welcome significantly less valuable statistics (again, known as anecdotal evidence) that backed it up. The problem is that, yes, I occasionally play Graves in lane because I much prefer lane over jungle, and his low range and inability to consistently autoattack his desired target are major liabilities. It's not quite as bad in top lane because you're more likely to face a single melee champ there, but bot lane will have at least one ranged opponent and possibly two.

Given your interest in the topic, I checked out your match history and found that it has 38 ADC Graves games in the last two weeks. Here are some stats.

Wins: 21
Losses: 17
Win rate: 55%
Average CS/minute: 4.5
Average K/D: 0.68
Losses you attempted to carry (K>D): 2
Losses you caused (K<D): 15
Wins you carried (K>D): 8
Wins you rode (K<D): 13
Carry percentage: 26%
Carried percentage: 74%

As you'll surely point out, you do indeed have a strong Graves ADC win rate of 55%. However, you are almost always the weak link in a loss, and you're carried by teammates in nearly two out of three wins. 38 games may sound like a lot to you, but stats sites parse tens to hundreds of thousands of games per champion, and some of those sites (like u.gg) parse all games accessible from Riot's API. You're looking at a small run of lucky wins and seeing a reason to label everyone who disagrees with you as being bad at Graves and needing "more practice" with him.

ı Sona ıJan 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I like how the statistics that disprove your idea are bad but you'd welcome significantly less valuable statistics (again, known as anecdotal evidence) that backed it up. The problem is that, yes, I occasionally play Graves in lane because I much prefer lane over jungle, and his low range and inability to consistently autoattack his desired target are major liabilities. It's not quite as bad in top lane because you're more likely to face a single melee champ there, but bot lane will have at least one ranged opponent and possibly two.

Given your interest in the topic, I checked out your match history and found that it has 38 ADC Graves games in the last two weeks. Here are some stats.

Wins: 21

Losses: 17

Win rate: 55%

Average CS/minute: 4.5

Average K/D: 0.68

Losses you attempted to carry (K>D): 2

Losses you caused (K<D): 15

Wins you carried (K>D): 8

Wins you rode (K<D): 13

Carry percentage: 26%

Carried percentage: 74%

As you'll surely point out, you do indeed have a strong Graves ADC win rate of 55%. However, you are almost always the weak link in a loss, and you're carried by teammates in nearly two out of three wins. 38 games may sound like a lot to you, but stats sites parse tens to hundreds of thousands of games per champion, and some of those sites (like u.gg) parse all games accessible from Riot's API. You're looking at a small run of lucky wins and seeing a reason to label everyone who disagrees with you as being bad at Graves and needing "more practice" with him.

However, these statistics still don't accurately define contribution. If we looked only at kda and disregarded actual game influence, dragon control, ward placement, objective taking, then I imagine that infinite pushing tryndamere and sion's and yoricks are all being carried with the kda's they've been ending up with.

KFCeytronJan 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=000700030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-14T19:02:51.132+0000)

However, these statistics still don't accurately define contribution. If we looked only at kda and disregarded actual game influence, dragon control, ward placement, objective taking, then I imagine that infinite pushing tryndamere and sion's and yoricks are all being carried with the kda's they've been ending up with.

Notice that the champions you listed as focusing on objective control are not ADCs. The ADC's basic job is to deal consistent damage to the enemy team, generally leading to kills, and you aren't doing that as ADC Graves.

HammermancerJan 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OnafqYld,comment-id=000700030000,timestamp=2019-01-13T23:45:33.427+0000)

Only work with a Taric and Only works if the enemy is both melee bot? That seems a bit much. Doesn't sound true at all.

There are a few minor exceptions but the reason for this is simple, graves aa cant pass through any enemy units, so a silver adc can easily outtrade the graves

I'm not sure you're sure what you're saying about cs'ing. Exactly how do you imagine the nature of minion waves? They all focus the ones farthest in the back? I have on problem cs'ing, maybe it just requires more practice.

Auto attacks are not only slow but also have a reload mechanic, with graves mana costs being high in relation to his pool and regen.

Dash in, double armor buff, blind, auto, auto, dash again for more armor, chase em down, r em to death. How about try it first as adc then judge.

Ive got half a mil mastery on graves with multiple seasons of 55% or higher winrate adc is only better than support, both are trash

Hes a capable top laner due to his high base damage and ability to build duelist and bruisery items but he's just outclassed in lane against any ranged opponent because a behind graves will struggle harder than any adc.

Its extremely eastly to beat him in lane if you're on an adc as well

In a 1v1 a top lane graves will likely win against a lucian adc, but lucian wins laning phase and denies your team not only the graves who will likely be functionally an assassin or a bruiser based on his build/runes but also the support will be behind. This is why bot lane can be a balancing issue sometimes (like the adc metas)

Graves adc can only keep up after he has enough sustain to deal with the constant losing trades as someone simply stands behind their support or minions while auto attacking him, his spell damage heavily relies on level and his e relieas on level and cdr as well as a/s, it also scales with health

His q relies on delayed damage and proper angling, and is his oy damage tool other than his ult and autos

Graves makes for a worse adc than gnar, teemo, or jayce due to his range, unreliable damage, and early game mana sustain issues

He can fill the role of makeshift adc in the late game if his bot lane fails but he can't actually take the bot lane position efficiently

I hope I've explained this well enough

Inkling CommandoJan 13, 20191 votes

I haven't tried Graves bot but I did Graves mid and from what I have seen from Lane Graves there is two disadvantages from what I seen with him.

his autos attack the first thing in front of him, regardless if the intestinal target is behind them.
reduced damage against turrets.

2.5. you need to be point blank at the turret cause if you are at a distance attacking it a minion, or even a champion, can get in front of you and your shots attack the minion instead. and if you hit the champion the turret targets you.