Does riot just want mages to be absolute crap late game?

Dasdi96·Apr 12, 2016·12 votes·723 views

The item changes seem to be pointing in that direction. They are already fall of hard compared to ad champions past 30 minutes, why make it even worse?

15 Comments

Kai GuyApr 12, 20163 votes

There are 16 Mages up for reworks. 6 larger overhauls and 10 smaller ones, Also going by the adc rework i'm shure they are adjustments to Base numbers, Growths, And Ratios. Can i suggest ya just wait till they provide champion changes then we can make more informed assumptions as to what riot is trying to do?

MasterSomethingApr 12, 20162 votes

It's a given that most mages will have some form of crowd control, AoE damage, or instaburst combos that completely ruin fights. I'm not against mages, but I'm also not for mages being the dominant class.

Dasdi96Apr 12, 20167 votes

{quoted}

It's a given that most mages will have some form of crowd control, AoE damage, or instaburst combos that completely ruin fights. I'm not against mages, but I'm also not for mages being the dominant class.

Since when were mages the dominant class? Right now, mages are struggling due to how easy it is to itemize against them and the fact that they get hard outscaled by adcs.

MasterSomethingApr 12, 20161 votes

I haven't played a season where they were (started in season 5) and I would not want to. It is somewhat easy to itemize against them, yes, but the item pool is beyond limited. Tell me any other MR items that aren't Aegis, Hexdrinker (and maw), Banshee's, Spirit Visage, or Mikael's. Also, tell me which ADCs that aren't hypercarries outscale them? They do have more damage, but that is because they are focused on doling damage out the course of the fight unlike mages who dole damage out at the start of the fight on the ADC. If any mage is worth their salt, and they got a perfect combo off on an ADC, then the ADC should be dead.

NekusenApr 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I haven't played a season where they were (started in season 5) and I would not want to. It is somewhat easy to itemize against them, yes, but the item pool is beyond limited. Tell me any other MR items that aren't Aegis, Hexdrinker (and maw), Banshee's, Spirit Visage, or Mikael's.

uh..... item 3140 ---> item 3139 the single best anti cc item in the game.

and besides those you mentioned: item 3001 item 3174 item 3111 item 3091 item 3512 item 3026 item 3060 item 3190

so ad options vs ap --> item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 item 3111 item 3065 (increases lifesteal) item 3102 (good vs any kind of combo or range spell) mage options vs ad --> item 3157 you can't even get item 3047 as a mage because you are required to get item 3020 to deal any kind of damage.

MasterSomethingApr 12, 20161 votes

Ah, I forgot old QSS and its upgrade. You did get me there...

However, for your other items: Most of those are for tanks or mages themselves. Wit's End is probably the exception to this rule, kinda, but is only really used on Kog and WW. Yes, while Spirit Visage may be good for lifesteal, in terms of damage... it is lacking. Seeing an ADC with all the items you put in, the ADC won't do as much damage as he/she could have and could very easily fall behind in damage in fights, leading to getting slowly outdamaged in teamfights.

Also, let's face it- AP options vs AD would be abused endlessly. There'd be a rise of "tanky mages" that magically deal damage and resist everything ADCs throw at them.

NekusenApr 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Ah, I forgot old QSS and its upgrade. You did get me there...

However, for your other items: Most of those are for tanks or mages themselves. Wit's End is probably the exception to this rule, kinda, but is only really used on Kog and WW. Yes, while Spirit Visage may be good for lifesteal, in terms of damage... it is lacking. Seeing an ADC with all the items you put in, the ADC won't do as much damage as he/she could have and could very easily fall behind in damage in fights, leading to getting slowly outdamaged in teamfights.

the thing is that AD have way more ways to itemize against AP than the other way around, not only in the form of items like item 3156 and item 3139 (vs item 3157 ) but also better synergy with defensive items than mages do.

Also, let's face it- AP options vs AD would be abused endlessly. There'd be a rise of "tanky mages" that magically deal damage and resist everything ADCs throw at them.

i... don't see how this could be the case, currently ad has more than double the counter-resistances mages have and you are not complaining of abuses.

what we do see, is tanky-adcs abusing item 3053 which was meant for tanks/bruisers, item that counters the only counter adcs have: assassins.

mages are supposed to build more hp to survive tank burst, adcs instead, had lifesteal as a method of sustain and counter tanks which deal low burst while keeping them vulnerable to assassins, but with these new hp-ad items, adcs now run rampart in every lane.

MasterSomethingApr 12, 20161 votes

The hardest part about this argument is trying to make generalizations that won't be countered easily as making generalizations in this game is difficult- Each match is usually different. Mages have lots of AP HP items (notable ones being Rylai's eternal slow scepter and RoA), and ADCs are supposed to have lots of sustain items to counteract this, yes. Riot really can't stop ADs from picking tank items, however. Sterak's, if it was removed, would cause a lot of problems on some bruiser champions' builds. While the builds would slowly fix themselves and the meta would change, some champs really do need it (Illaoi comes to mind- If she cannot survive that burst in a teamfight, she's fucked). Black Cleaver is also an issue- They can't simply put "Melee Only" on it as melee AD characters can still abuse it. Riot was really unlucky people realized "Hey, I can use this item and never die while doing a ton of damage! Let me tell everyone!". They now have the issue of trying to balance stuff like Gage for tanks/bruisers, and to heavily discourage AD use.

NekusenApr 12, 20161 votes

{quoted} Sterak's, if it was removed, would cause a lot of problems on some bruiser champions' builds.

im not saying it should be removed, a single change could fix it issues: making it scale with bonus HP instead of total HP.

MasterSomethingApr 12, 20161 votes

That could potentially work, but remember to consider outliers like Sion or Udyr who could potentially abuse this item to death.

9L9L9L9L9L9L9LApr 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Since when were mages the dominant class?

Season 3

LankPantsApr 12, 20161 votes

Mages were utter garbage in season 3, the entire meta was Zed/Kat/Fizz/Kha'zix/Talon. The last time mages were truly dominant was S2, which was coincidently the best season.

Poop JellyApr 12, 20162 votes

This is what I've thought. They should be rewarded for landing their skills/combo, but they shouldn't be over-rewarded.

PacothegintApr 12, 20161 votes

What you are thinking of is Season 3. The season of mages and assassins, but to be honest I wouldn't mind a buff the the mages. They have just kinda been there and not really done anything for the past two seasons and that is a downer for me.