A worrying trend of recent chamion design

The Deckowner·Jan 17, 2017·72 votes·3,028 views

you can literally remove part of the new champions' overloaded kits and they still got more tools than older champions.

54 Comments

TheHappyReaperzJan 17, 201725 votes

So this is just another Camille is overloaded thread? Because the other recently released, such as Ivern or Kled, have kits, that if you removed something from them, would be severely under powered.

LooknookJan 17, 20179 votes

I would agree with you, there really isn't any extraneous ablilities or passives on those two champs. If you want to see overloaded look back at some of the original champs while the game was just starting. Older Champions used to be able to do some crazy things.

xeviJan 17, 20171 votes

SUMMONER'S RIFT FLASHBACKS

AnidanJan 18, 20172 votes

Back when TF was just Nature's Prophet with burst and a hard CC in exchange for less direct pushing and jungling power... old, bygone days.

RomtheguyJan 18, 20172 votes

Side note for those whom need it - Nature's Prophet/Furion is a Dota 2 champion with an actual global teleport on his W. ...Of course it has a fairly long cooldown!

SpoofghoulJan 17, 20171 votes

so ivern isn't overloaded then?

Head ConnoisseurJan 17, 20176 votes

{quoted}

so ivern isn't overloaded then?

ok

OverLOADED? Not at all. OverPOWERED? Probably.

SpoofghoulJan 17, 20172 votes

i guess overloaded is partially a matter of opinion

he has a very versatile kit with lots of tools and i think he is ''overloaded'' i dont have any problems with him though

not all overloaded is equally overloaded i guess

ModKnightsKemplarJan 18, 20171 votes

Versatile?

You call playing in literally only one role versatile? Are we even using the same dictionary?

Chembaron YamadaJan 18, 20173 votes

He doesn't say Ivern is versatile like in able to play many different roles. He means that his kit has versatile tools, so his skills can be used for many different purposes.

His Q is an engage and disengage for your whole team and deals damage. His W denies vision for the enemy team to set up ambushes, defend your team against poke in a siege situation, make it easier for your team to land skillshots (like Blitzcrank hook). His E can be used to slow an enemy down if he wants to escape, shield an ally against lethal damage, as a damage nuke combined with Daisy. His R is a meat shield for tower dives, peel for allies, can block skill shots for his team.

SpoofghoulJan 18, 20172 votes

versatile in my dictionary meant his kit gives a lot of tools to use

ModKnightsKemplarJan 18, 20171 votes

I have never heard it used in that context in this game.

Ivern doesn't have a lot of different strategies at his disposal. That's not different than saying that Taric has a versatile kit, because having a heal, a shield, and an ult for invincibility. AND HE EVEN HAS CC. And if THAT'S not enough, his passive gives him pretty insane sustained damage (it actually does. Most under-appreciated and underestimated part of his kit).

"Versatile" is a relative term. Saying Ivern is versatile implies that he is MORE versatile than the average in this game. And I just don't see it. Therefore, saying he's versatile (my opinion) carries absolutely no meaning, because all the other champs are just as versatile.

SwaggyMcGhee420Jan 18, 20171 votes

All he really has is utility, though. His base damage is ok, but isn't really anything special.

Wrathof300Jan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

All he really has is utility, though. His base damage is ok, but isn't really anything special.

Utility = versatility its all bout how you, utilize it. (Lol)

SwaggyMcGhee420Jan 19, 20171 votes

I mean it's not like he has tons of damage, healing, or peel though.

Rock MDJan 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

so ivern isn't overloaded then?

ok

Q - Morgana Q you can hop to.

W - make brushes for 30 seconds and get a little oomph in your AA's in brush

E - Sion shield

R - Annie R with a more conditional CC

He's strong because of his passive's counterjungling presence, but he's not really overloaded.

Towboat421Jan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohl6vx3n,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2017-01-17T20:59:20.823+0000)

Q - Morgana Q you can hop to.

W - make brushes for 30 seconds and get a little oomph in your AA's in brush

E - Sion shield

R - Annie R with a more conditional CC

He's strong because of his passive's counterjungling presence, but he's not really overloaded.

Extremly hyperbolic explanation,

Q- Doesent do NEARLY the same amount of damage or root for as long

W- The "OOMPH" is laughable and the brush making can easily back fire.

E- Doesent last as long doesn't do as much damage but maintains the slow regardless

R- Annies ult alright, if annies ult had any indication or warning that one could react to you know like a summon ult should be. not to mention he lacks an initial burst of damage that annie so graciously bestows upon whoever is in a flash + ult combo range.

The DeckownerJan 17, 20175 votes

By recent I am referring to recent seasons, not just recent days. Champions like azir, ekko, kindred, reksai and most recently camille all came out with kits that does way too many things and the older ones already got one or even multiple parts of their kit removed. This trend is basically:

make a champion with overloaded kit
ignore them until they dominate LCS
gut the champion and remove part of their kit
leave them in the guttedville

SociopathFriendJan 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohl6vx3n,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-01-17T21:11:20.902+0000)

By recent I am referring to recent seasons, not just recent days. Champions like azir, ekko, kindred, reksai and most recently camille all came out with kits that does way too many things and the old.

We have different definitions of overloaded kits it seems.

TheOneTrueBrandJan 18, 20171 votes

When Kindred came out, they were my favorite jungler. I loved the theme, I loved the gameplay, I loved the stacking passive mechanic. But then they heavily nerfed their Q damage and removed the heal, and since then jungle monsters have been buffed up several times so now Kindred simply can't hope to compete with this metas FoTM junglers, it just makes me sad.

MLDzXnRRRJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

When Kindred came out, they were my favorite jungler. I loved the theme, I loved the gameplay, I loved the stacking passive mechanic. But then they heavily nerfed their Q damage and removed the heal, and since then jungle monsters have been buffed up several times so now Kindred simply can't hope to compete with this metas FoTM junglers, it just makes me sad.

Kindred dominated LCS for many months, they rotate the pool of the viable champions. You can expect buffs some day. I'm glad that she isn't popular anymore, really toxic champion against melees.

TheOneTrueBrandJan 18, 20171 votes

What ranged champion isnt cancer to melee?

Slap a Frozen Mallet on any ranged champion and see how long it takes the melee to call the ranged champion cancer.

SH AzykanJan 18, 20171 votes

Ashe yes I can stack slows on my slows!!! (hey you said ANY ranged champion)

ReposerJan 18, 20172 votes

I mean, Ekko's a healthy champ at the moment, and has only been a problem when overtuned on release (Most champs get that or undertuned anyhow) and when the tank build was realized, and eventually nerfed.

AP Ekko has always been an acceptable kit, obviously barring release, and if you removed anything from his kit, he'd be shit on. Even with Tank Ekko, the only thing you could feasibly have removed would've been his Q, since that version of Ekko relied on using the passive slows and mobility more than anything.

Weasel KenseiJan 18, 20171 votes

Only on release? We had to deal with tank Ekko for MONTHS, many patches went buy before they put that beast down.

ReposerJan 18, 20171 votes

I mentioned the tank build immediately after that.

has only been a problem when overtuned on release (Most champs get that or undertuned anyhow) and when the tank build was realized, and eventually nerfed.

And even then, the tank build was in large part to itemization at the time, where a LOT of champs had abuse of tank items, it just helped Ekko out the most. AP builds, as said, have always been balanced bar release.

Yes we had to deal with it for a while, but there was a lot of bullshit for a while during that meta, and other metas in the past. It got nerfed, the kit's got weaknesses (AP always did ofc) that make it fair even with tank builds, and that's really it.

KorZodJan 18, 20171 votes

I don't think the question is power, just the amount of stuff going on. Old WW vs new, the new one has many more tools (gapcloser/passthrough closer, damage reduction shield with fear, the activatable W, scaling ult). Not saying its bad but there's just more stuff than the old one (everything in his kit is there in some way + more)

OrangesilkJan 17, 201712 votes

Chogath BARELY has a functional kit IF he manages to land an ability that anyone with three brain cells can walk out of.

SpecterVonBarenJan 18, 20172 votes

I played ONE game as Cho after they changed his W and I quit using him forever. He's just so useless now that the only way to reliably hit someone is with a flash R.

AckelopeJan 19, 20171 votes

i think the W change was warranted, it doesn't feel good to try and flash out at the last second, burn your flash, but still get hit by it for whater reason, but what they should've done was take the time to update his other abilities to more workable levels as well as modernizing his W. All they did was nerf him and just kinda leave him in the dust, really.

Tribbles FoxfolkJan 17, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohl6vx3n,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-17T15:33:33.038+0000)

you can literally remove part of the new champions' overloaded kits and they still got more tools than older champions.

Agreed. While it's not uncommon for newer characters in any game to gradually gain more and more abilities (well-known as Power Creep), this is just unreal now. Camille has an ungodly amount of power in EACH ability, let alone 4 + a passive, and could have easily had most of her kit cut in half.

Even then, she would STILL be beastly. It's Rek'Sai all over again.

Pale PirateJan 18, 20171 votes

Well, Rek'Sai was just a failed champion fantasy, or rather a fantasy they didn't look to enforce. I mean, why on earth would anyone build high damage on a champion with such strong utility.

Duke of SlothsJan 17, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohl6vx3n,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-17T15:33:33.038+0000)

you can literally remove part of the new champions' overloaded kits and they still got more tools than older champions.

It's not about how many tools a champion has, it's about if they can do what they are intended to do effectively. More tools can make balancing a champion easier believe it or not. When a champion has a simple kit it can lead to binary gameplay, look at a champion like Akali, she doesn't do nearly as much as Ekko. Which means that her entire kit comes down to if she can kill her target which has made her a balance nightmare.

SteelflameJan 18, 20171 votes

Yep. Akali in general is one of the worst characters in league. Shes the ultimate stat check, as an assassin to boot. If you can't kill her, you pretty much can't outplay her or escape her (especially during her original strong periods. More of the modern champs are overloaded enough to have something to get away from her if they couldn't flat out kill her, but back then? lol. As if.) Almost no champion in the game has enough raw mobility to run from an Akali on you if she's smart about her ult usage, thanks to 3 charges of a targeted dash on a very short CD, and a 4th blink that can get her over a few walls. Blast Plants are pretty good vs her though, you can easily predict exactly where she will land when she ults you, and they can make enough distance to prevent her from ulting to you again.

SpecterVonBarenJan 18, 20175 votes

Except Ekko is a HORRIBLE example because he's what happens when you put too much in a kit. You need to have a balance.

ReposerJan 18, 20172 votes

Said this above, but Ekko hasn't been a problem champ outside of the tank abuse, which was in large part to itemization favoring that change. But with a very slight retuning, AP Ekko is still healthy, and has, barring release number imbalance, always been healthy. He does a lot, but it all has a trade-off.

Something such as Ekko v Akali in terms of kit is actually something that favors Ekko in health, realistically. Akali is a 'kill or do nothing' champion that, as Duke says, is terrible to balance because it's almost always going to be under/overpowered, since all they can do for the champ itself is generally adjust TTK one way or the other.

Ekko can be balanced around having weaker stuns, weaker shields, lower dis-engage speed (Via Passive), less safety on ult (Heal, CD, etc) or of course, lower damage, which is generally what they try to keep on him, given that his kit is generally 'unreliable' compared to most assassins (kit-wise, balancing is a bitch for a lot of them right now).

MLDzXnRRRJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Said this above, but Ekko hasn't been a problem champ outside of the tank abuse, which was in large part to itemization favoring that change. But with a very slight retuning, AP Ekko is still healthy, and has, barring release number imbalance, always been healthy. He does a lot, but it all has a trade-off.

Something such as Ekko v Akali in terms of kit is actually something that favors Ekko in health, realistically. Akali is a 'kill or do nothing' champion that, as Duke says, is terrible to balance because it's almost always going to be under/overpowered, since all they can do for the champ itself is generally adjust TTK one way or the other.

Ekko can be balanced around having weaker stuns, weaker shields, lower dis-engage speed (Via Passive), less safety on ult (Heal, CD, etc) or of course, lower damage, which is generally what they try to keep on him, given that his kit is generally 'unreliable' compared to most assassins (kit-wise, balancing is a bitch for a lot of them right now).

His kit is still better as a bruiser. Now he is feast or famine like the other assasins. If he isn't fed, he is useless compared to any ranged mage.

ReposerJan 18, 20171 votes

I mean, compared to other assassins, he still brings useful stuff to a team, with his stun and slows, and he can make a great aggro-target, as long as he can ult in time.

It's pretty hard to get behind if you don't aggro (Assuming your laner or another laner isn't too fed to escape in any way) because of the kits safety, and at worst, aside from building bruiser/tank, you can help delay to get your build in time to ramp up, and with the powerspikes you have available to you, it's not super difficult to get back in the game as long as the enemy team doesn't get fed too hard.

That being said, there is a feast/famine pattern with him, but it is better than that of most other assassins. Lately a item 3092 build has cropped up which enables him to stay in the game, even without getting ahead, but I've yet to use the build myself, so I'm not certain of its strengths firsthand.

Wrathof300Jan 17, 20174 votes

Like someone said earlier, overloaded is defined differently from person to person. Obviously newer kits seem overloaded compared to older champions, the game is evolving. However to attain same level of cohesion in an effective combo with higher skill level the champion kit needs more. eg You say Camille is an overloaded character but replace any ability (excluding her ult) and her kit will fall apart similarly Pantheon a simple champion with a simple combo, replace one ability and the combo is no longer viable. The difference is the level of skill and utility/versatility that makes camille feel/look overloaded. Overloaded - unnecessary effects eg ekko's passive used to both slow and provide a speed boost Versatility - the options given to a champion on how an ability can be used or if part of their combo messes up. eg Ryze

SH AzykanJan 18, 20171 votes

unless the ability removed from camille was W, cause her kit functions fine without it (though the slow is pretty nice to have)

BoilTheOilJan 18, 20172 votes

Ryze is overloaded if you know what i mean Anivia this character is too

Wrathof300Jan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

is overloaded if you know what i mean this character is too

Good one

Reaper SorakaJan 18, 20172 votes

I thought about this for some time. I wondered what goes through a game designers head when they try to create a champion. This is about as far as I got-- unfinished because my head was going to explode.

Well, how can you make a new champion without repeating one of the old ones?

There is single targeted damage. 1- Targeted damage. (Anyone.) 2- Missile damage. (Ezreal q, long list of champs have this.) 3- AoE damage. (Karthus q,e, swain, many champs. Count Lux R as AoE, since it isn't a missile.)

Add just a hint of complication to it. 4- Channeled missile damage. (Jhin ult) 5- Channeled AoE damage. (Anivia, Swain, Mundo are the closest I can think of, they don't actually have to channel their aoe; they just toggle it.) 6- Channeled targeted damage. (Fiddle)

Why would anyone pick a champion with 2/2/2/2 in their kit if they can pick 1/1/1/1. They can't miss.

Well, we have the variables of damage, cdr and range now. I guess we can make it a little more difficult: let's make some missiles be blocked by minions, some not.

I came to the conclusion that you have to add unique perks or one will always outshine another. You can run out of variations that matter, and you need to move some power from something to create something unique. a champion with 1/1/1/1 for her abilities for example. 1/1/1/1 will always be taken forever and ever. How can we make something new and unique? 1/1/1/1, but reducing it's damage/range/increasing cooldown in exchange for a fancy passive. Let's say~ health recovered on champion hit with E.

People often complain about the point of picking Lulu. What can she do that other supports can't do better? Well, she needs something (AHEM. OTHER THAN A DAMAGE BOOST RIOT.) to make her more unique in her role (WHICH IS SUPPORT, RIOT.)

DarkRitualJan 18, 20172 votes

This is more an issue with old champion design than new champion design. Old champs were pretty flat in terms of their kit. Often their kits just did things, and didn't really work cohesively or fit a theme.

IceKingChernobogJan 18, 20171 votes

Volibear 's is so fucking Bland and uninteresting. All of his power is loaded on to 1 skill thats on a long ass cooldown.(That itself isn't good kit design)

MechakaiserJan 18, 20171 votes

And then there is Blitzcrank, just... There... Staring...

SSShutTheDuckUpJan 18, 20171 votes

While what you are saying is not a lie it is not a recent trend. I would say that recently they actually are more careful with the amount of BS they put into the new characters. For a reference just read through Azir's patch notes during S5 and S6. Like half of his kit was removed and he was still pick/ban in competitive.

DaxanaterJan 18, 20171 votes

guys the Anivia cyan square is the new design.

SkZ DoPeJan 18, 20171 votes

every new champion needs shields, slows that can transform into stuns, a 3-stack passive, another passive that gives something special, and works both tank, AD and AP if you'd ask Riot