Something people dont seem to be grasping about Armor/Magic Pen

Eedat··4 votes·3,510 views

I want to start by laying out some info people may not be aware of.

The following list is every single champion that gains ZERO MR per level

Anivia Annie AurelionSol Ashe Caitlyn Azir Bard Brand Graves Cassiopeia Corki Draven Elise Ezreal Fiddlesticks Gnar Ahri Heimerdinger Janna Jayce Jhin Jinx Kalista Karma Karthus Kassadin Kayle Kennen Kindred KogMaw Leblanc Lissandra Lucian Zyra Lux Malzahar MissFortune Morgana Nami Nidalee Orianna Quinn Ryze Sivir Sona Soraka Swain Syndra Taliyah Teemo Lulu Tristana TwistedFate Twitch Urgot Varus Vayne Veigar Thresh Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Velkoz Yasuo Zilean

Every single on of these champs starts the game with 30 MR and thats all they get. Level 1? 30 MR. Level 18? 30 MR. As for the other champions, the absolute highest base MR out of any champion at level 18 is Kat (I don't know why) at 55.4

Let do a comparison with Armor.

I'll start out by saying the one single champion that doesn't get armor scaling is Thresh because of his passive. Every single other champion gets Armor scaling. The absolute lowest base armor at level 18 (excluding Thresh) is Mini Gnar at 65.5, but he also gets 103 in Mega. So excluding him, the next lowest is Ori at 68. The absolute highest base armor at level 18 is Rammus at 104.5.

So what have we gathered so far? The lowest base Armor is roughly double the lowest base MR. The highest base armor is also roughly double the highest base MR.

OK? Whats your point?

I wanted to bring some attention to the issue arising that stacking 3 Lethality items deals true damage to squishies. Lets take a look.

  • item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 + flat Lethality reds = 64.4 Lethality.

Lets factor this into our equation. We also have to factor in Battering Blows. Lets go with a worst case scenario with Ori at 68 armor.

*68 Arm - Battering Blows = 63.24

  • Obviously then 63.24 - 64.4 = -1.14 Armor

So yes it seems that you CAN do true damage to squishies at level 18 with this build.

BUT

Here's something you may not have known. Lets do the same thing with magic pen. Lets take the equally worst case scenario that half of all Champs have 30 base MR. We also cant forget the Piercing Thoughts Mastery. You also cant forget that Void staff ignores TOTAL MR, as opposed to LW items ignoring BONUS armor

  • 30 - Piercing Thoughts = 27.9

  • 27.9 - Void Staff = 18.135

  • 18.135 - Sorc boots (15) - Flat Magic Pen reds (7.8) = -4.665 MR

#Congrats. You've been doing true damage to squishes for YEARS with 3750G worth of AP items

These debates are getting ridiculous.

People are so quick to point out that you can stack 65 Lethality

But neglect to mention that champs have >DOUBLE the base armor than MR at level 18 when you can use it all

Its not even like only tanks and initiators get high base armor at 18. Lux has 87. Cait has 82. Syndra has 83.

Do I even need to mention that you need to be attacking a level 18 target to get full use of that lethality when magic pen isnt gated at all at any level?

Do I even need to mention we are comparing 10K worth of pen items to 3.7k?

I know, I know "but item 3814 gives MR!" Pshhh. It gives less MR than item 3157 gives Armor. Plus Zhonyas is cheaper and has the better active

So next time you want to complain about true damage to squishies, please be aware that you've been doing it for YEARS. Weird how its only a problem now though, right? Weird how we've been okay with this for years but NOW it's "OMG BROKEN"

Does it make sense why AP/MR and AD/MR items exist, but no AD/Armor exists now?

At least mages actually get an AP/Armor item. It even has arguably the best active in the game tacked onto it.

Oh but I know. "AP itemization is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad". Yeah, sure thing buddy. Sure it is.

So please, next time you want to complain about the true damage to squishies keep in mind that AP is doing it for less than half the cost

Double standards at it's finest

15 Comments

Very Hard Engage3 votes

what you're neglecting is the fact that mages have to go out of their way to stack magic pen and they lose early game trading power for it.

its a late game stat not an early game one. no point in "dealing true damage" when our abilities dont have the ratios to back it up yet. because dealing 300 true damage is pointless when i have to wait another 8 seconds to do it again.

in addition, the most egregious offense, is that AD's have auto attacks to fall back on. mages dont.

because everyone runs 42mr anyway, combined usually with 1 MR item, like GA, mercs, or hex... or all of them...

dunder kill3 votes

mages have to go out of their way to stack magic pen

item 3135 item 3020 is not out of the way

its a late game stat not an early game one

Lethality LITERALLY SCALES WITH LEVEL

in addition, the most egregious offense, is that AD's have auto attacks to fall back on. mages dont.

Lethality builds are all about doing damage with your spells. Notice how nobody runs Lethality on Jinx

Eedat2 votes

You lost me at magic pen "is a late game stat" when Lethality actually scales with level lol

Peppita1234567891 votes

Ummm, I know I haven't played in a while, but if i remember right, there's two items that almost all masges have at least one of in their core build Abyssal Scepter, and Voidstaff, sometimes both, and abyssal scepter I always built first(either that or the book thing for regen) and that gives aoe magic pen, for all allies too, which stacks with other people building it...

Eedat2 votes

They changed Abyssal from aoe magic pen to aoe +10% magic damage taken.

It does the exact same thing except its slightly less oppressive to squishies, but more effective to tanks

Void Staff is exactly the same and pretty much every mage builds it

Dark Nephthys3 votes

Something that was also not mentioned was the fact that AD champions can rush and go full lethality and that works fine with their builds and they really don't lose much for doing so (besides for maybe Life steal, or Crit with ADCs cases). While most mages can't go full magic pen at least until they get 1-2 items before hand. Most mages need at least 1 mana based item item 3040 item 3027 item 3165, while some need 2 and some times use 3. Even for the champions that don't need to rush Mana or CDR usually want up-front AP like item 3285 or in some champions cases item 3146. The only champions that can do very well with rushing heavy magic pen first is Rumble and some times Brand Zyra since I usually see those 2 getting item 3116 first.

Basically my point is, the people who go full Lethality usually go straight into it and rush those items and in the end don't lose as much for it. Also the amount of items with Lethality or Armor shread compared to Magic Pen is quite a big difference.

Lethality/Armor Shred: item 3147 item 3814 item 3035 item 3071 item 3142

Magic Pen: item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 and if you technically count item 3001.

Eedat1 votes

How do you "rush" 10k worth of items? What?

Dark Nephthys2 votes

{quoted}

How do you "rush" 10k worth of items? What?

I meant they can afford to go right into those items and not have to worry about buying anything before it, while mages generally need to get other items first before they can get Magic pen, either being Mana or HP items.

dunder kill2 votes

inb4

"Well if you do the math and crunch the numbers it turns out that........"

"BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! WE DON'T CARE ABOUT ACTUAL NUMBERS!!!!!! GUT LEE SIN!!!!!" - The Boards

Eedat1 votes

my anus is not prepared for the shitstorm I unleashed

WoonStruck1 votes

Thing is, magic damage generally has a 4+ second CD.

Physical ends up 1 second or less on the large majority of physical damage dealers/melees.

AD champs also tend to have lower ability CDs than APs.

Eedat2 votes

Hmmmm thats weird. I dont see any Attack speed in item 3142 item 3814 item 3147.

AD champs also tend to have lower ability CDs than APs.

First off, not true. Second, every Mage build you could possibly want has 40% CDR crammed into it

WoonStruck1 votes

Base attack speed yo.

Most champs mentioned reach about 1/sec by 18 without any bonus.


It is true, especially when you consider that most building Lethality are going to end up with** at least **30% (item 3142 item 3158 CDR runes) , along with their generally lower base CDs

Rivenne1 votes

your point about dealing true damage with AP being easier + cheaper is true.

riot does seems to be more generous with AD scalings than AP scalings however,

certain champs who rely on autos have their spells on higher AD scalings take full lethality caitlynCaitlyn for example, her Q has 170% AD scaling and her R has 200% AD scaling. compare that to your standard AP spells which has 50%-100% AP scaling, that is a huge difference in scaling altogether. the lethality does help lethality caitlyn deal more/true damage, but lethality always comes together with AD in the lethality items.item 3142 item 3814 item 3147

see the "ADC" caitlyn that builds crit and attack speed items? replace them with the 3 lethality items and you get a caitlyn with 180 AD extra now factor that additional 180 AD into caitlyn's spells: Q (170% AD) and R (200% AD) and u will get "OMG lethality is broken"

AD casters like rivenRiven jayceJayce zed Zed still gets their job done regardless of lethality items since they were building damage items to begin with.

Titanium701 votes

This would be true if you'd not ignore the key factor:

Every Mage in existence is balance around getting this Pen. Sorcs in particular! Btw: You just need 2600G and no Runes to deal true DMG against Rangeds item 3020+item 3136 which is a viable Buildpath on some Mages and a path usually kept in mind when balancing things. It's always a tradeoff since you neglegt ANY form of CDR or Mana building this way.

Unlike ADs who got completely new and therefore unbalanced powerspike far to early in the game! ADs who deal DMG without CDR or Mana problems! As a cherry on top those ArPen Items also offer an amazing set of stats and effects and are overall efficient Items.

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