What would happen if there was an AP "The Black Cleaver"?

YumaS2Astral·Sep 14, 2016·5 votes·907 views

Something like this:

The Black Spellbook

+300 health
+80 AP
+20% cooldown reduction

UNIQUE: Dealing magic damage to an enemy champion Curses them, reducing their magic resistance by 5% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 6 times for a maximum of 30%.

UNIQUE - RAGE: Dealing magic damage grants 20 movement speed for 2 seconds. Assists on Cursed enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 60 movement speed for 2 seconds instead. This movement speed bonus is halved for ranged champions.

Recipe: Fiendish Codex + Blasting Wand + Ruby Crystal (for a combine cost of 950)

The above example is just an hypothetical example of a possible magic damage counterpart to The Black Cleaver. It is not meant to be a suggestion.

35 Comments

warpenguin555Sep 14, 201610 votes

Perma banning Cass and Ryze

EedatSep 14, 20164 votes

Malzahar Fiddlesticks Amumu Heimerdinger Swain Kennen Singed Sejuani Teemo Zyra Anyone who builds item 3151 item 3068

Rito more bans please

warpenguin555Sep 14, 20161 votes

oh god. i forgot about a fuck ton of the roster. yeah more bans please

Terminus EdgeSep 14, 20167 votes

Something to keep in mind is that there are a lot of DoT or persistent AoE damage effects (like Sunfire Cape and Amumu's W) that deal magic damage, which would apply this shred very quickly.

For reference, there are only four physical DoT effects in the game. Darius' passive, Talon's Q, Udyr's Q, and Urgot's E.

PhDs NutsSep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Terminus Edge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdpRkeEN,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-14T02:42:37.395+0000)

Something to keep in mind is that there are a lot of DoT or persistent AoE damage effects (like Sunfire Cape and Amumu's W) that deal magic damage, which would apply this shred very quickly.

For reference, there are only three physical DoT effects in the game. Talon's Q, Udyr's Q, and Urgot's E.

Darius

Terminus EdgeSep 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Four physical DoT effects in the game.

PhDs NutsSep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Terminus Edge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdpRkeEN,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-09-14T02:44:16.985+0000)

Four physical DoT effects in the game.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nZXPJyjUINc/maxresdefault.jpg

Critmaster GarenSep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Terminus Edge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdpRkeEN,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-09-14T02:44:16.985+0000)

Four physical DoT effects in the game.

notice how most champions who want cleaver are melee, and most champions with dot effects who would want an ap cleaver are ranged?

there is a big difference between that slow guy walking up to you and threatening to shred your armor, and malzahar shredding mr with space aids from the other side of the lane, or annie just having tibbers walk into your team.

Critmaster GarenSep 14, 20163 votes

there is literally no need for it, since item 3135 grants total 35% magic pen frontloaded. even with the extra stats, the bursty nature of mages makes void staff superior in every way.

all it would cause is a danger for abuse cases.

Gary B EnkelisSep 14, 20162 votes

The closest we have is item 3001 I think.

YumaS2AstralSep 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The closest we have is I think.

It is a close counterpart in the sense of it having magic resistance reduction. However I mostly consider item 3001 to be a "counterpart" to item 3156 in the sense that it is an item meant to give you protection against magic damage while still giving you offensive stats. They don't share a lot of similarity other than that and having magic resistance, though.

There is currently no item for AP champions that is completely close to The Black Cleaver. On my opinion the closest thing would be item 3135 ; it gives magic penetration, a decent amount of AP, and gives all that magic penetration instantly. However, it does not give HP, the magic penetration only benefits the user, and it has no CDR.

An AP "The Black Cleaver" could be an amazing item for manaless champions that want 20% CDR, since all 20% CDR items that would be suitable for APs currently give mana or mana regeneration. It would be amazing for example, on Zac , since although he benefits from CDR, he has a hard time itemizing for it, since he is a tanky, manaless champion that does magic damage and has no AD ratios. This means that stacking CDR for him is hard without the help of runes. Such an item would benefit him for that reason; while also giving him magic resistance reduction (Zac loves magic penetration/reduction but most of time he can't itemize for that either)

A bunch of other champions would also benefit from it. For example, Vladimir Swain Teemo Evelynn

Not to mention, giving them movement speed instead of slowing an enemy would allow Riot to nerf item 3116 properly without worrying about those champions getting gutted in the process.

Gary B EnkelisSep 14, 20161 votes

Yeah I was basically referring to the reduction.

BLACK REALM GODSep 14, 20163 votes

item 3091

Gary B EnkelisSep 14, 20161 votes

Yes that too but I skipped it because I didn't see it as an item for most APCs.

BLACK REALM GODSep 14, 20162 votes

the reason it has attack speed is so that a mage can use the passive more effectively. it's also very generous in attack speed. it does magic damage on hit and reduces the magic resist of enemies just like cleaver.

LXIISep 14, 20161 votes

Even better it STEALS the magic resist rather than just shredding it.

BLACK REALM GODSep 14, 20161 votes

yes. exactly.

PhDs NutsSep 14, 20162 votes

Pssshhh, way to steal my idea from the Rylai thread =)

{quoted}

What if it was the AP version of Black Cleaver's passive instead? It gives the user a speed boost instead of a slow to the target. Mages can still kite, but they don't automatically kill whoever they throw a DoT/long range ability on anymore because their teammates don't benefit from the passive.

I'd leave out the defensive shred, but keep the movespeed boost. MR itemization is already pretty garbage.

EedatSep 14, 20161 votes

Black Cleaver reduces their armor for everyone....

Ruin LanceSep 14, 20162 votes

fuck no there are way too many dot magic spells for this to be balanced. imagine getting poisoned by singed/malz and losing 30% of your mr cause of it

Mysticman89Sep 14, 20161 votes

Repeated applications of magic damage is pretty niche, as many mages use their spells, then wait for cooldowns.

Meanwhile, wits end is basically the magic black clever, but is also pretty niche as it's mainly for repeated auto attacked, and those who do that plus magic damage are pretty limited. That said, in principle if one had a magic damage heavy team, one person might want to build wits end for the MR shred on their teams behalf, rather than for personal benefit.

Gary B EnkelisSep 14, 20161 votes

Yeah but with the Deathfire Touch mastery it's easy to apply a magical DoT while your cooldowns are down. I dunno.

The Sword SaintSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Repeated applications of magic damage is pretty niche, as many mages use their spells, then wait for cooldowns.

Meanwhile, wits end is basically the magic black clever, but is also pretty niche as it's mainly for repeated auto attacked, and those who do that plus magic damage are pretty limited. That said, in principle if one had a magic damage heavy team, one person might want to build wits end for the MR shred on their teams behalf, rather than for personal benefit.

That would be toplane kayle with an ap mid, ap tank jungler, and corki adc.

Mysticman89Sep 14, 20161 votes

Well kayle is one of the handful who would build wits end normally anyway I believe, although I'm not up to date on her current builds.

But if you've got an ap mid, corki adc, and either an ap top or jg (or both), I'd think that at least one member who wouldn't normally build wits end ouaght to give strong consideration to it.

The Sword SaintSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well kayle is one of the handful who would build wits end normally anyway I believe, although I'm not up to date on her current builds.

But if you've got an ap mid, corki adc, and either an ap top or jg (or both), I'd think that at least one member who wouldn't normally build wits end ouaght to give strong consideration to it.

It's nashors rush into rageblade hurricane zerkers/swifties ryleis ga.

JbelsSep 14, 20161 votes

Liandry's torment. Except it shreds health instead of MR

AnonagonSep 14, 20161 votes

They were actually trying something somewhat similar to this as a change to Abyssal Scepter a while back. Rather than the Cleaver-style shred on damage, it instead was kind of like a Sunfire Cape, except the pulses reduced magic damage, stacking up to three times. While its not nearly a direct counterpart, it filled the same niche.

Sadly they scrapped that idea, both because the item was too strong and because it removed abyssal as a magic resist option for traditional ranged mages

EndlessSorcererSep 14, 20161 votes

Amumu becomes perma-ban.

SukishooSep 14, 20161 votes

What if there was an AP this or an AD that.. yeah lets not.

BLACK REALM GODSep 14, 20161 votes

item 3091

The DeckownerSep 14, 20161 votes

hell fucking no cass and azir with rylais are already cancer now u gonna give them extra 30% magic pen with movementspeed buff while they already 40% perma slow you with rylais and have void staff 35% magic pen?

I can't believe how dumb this idea sounds

ShahamutSep 14, 20161 votes

what would happen? Skarner would buy both of them :)

IcyPepperSep 14, 20161 votes

reducing their magic resistance by 5% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 6 times for a maximum of 30%.

Or just skip the hard part altogether with item 3135 ?

The main advantage that VS has over LW is that VS penetrates total MR, as opposed to the bonus Armor pen of LW. And you can still build some flat magic pen, if you so desire.

Armor pen builds are frustrating when popular, but that doesn't mean AP itemization needs that same factor. I'd argue AP itemization is fine, unless you're looking into specialized AP assassin items that normal mages won't benefit from.

japan hate accSep 14, 20161 votes

Aurelion Sol would actually be really powerful.

Already, his build is centered around item 3030 and item 3116 and he takes Stormraider's Surge. It's about him slowing enemies while speeding himself up, so they're always in his stars.