I feel like Zoe has a lot of the problems that old AP Nid had

Akali is SO HOT··18 votes·1,351 views

Her gameplay consists of her really not interacting with her opponent all that much and just spamming Q from a really long range. Just like old Nid, playing a minigame of dodging the skillshot isn't very fun and, just like old Nid, she can miss as many Qs as she wants, but all it takes is one Q landing to completely change the game. It doesn't have a bullshit hitbox like Nid's spear did, but it is still AoE which can make it hard to dodge. You can use your minions early game to dodge it, but later on you won't have that option as much.

What's even more frustrating is that if she lands her bubble, then you are guaranteed to get hit by her nuclear warhead Q. At least with Nidalee she never had an ability in her kit that allowed her to guarantee a spear landed. She is probably less safe than Nidalee was, but the overall problem with Nidalee that needed to be changed was her spears.

You can make any arguments you want about how Zoe may not be frustrating, but people made those same arguments for old Nidalee and she was still reworked for a reason. Linear gameplay and minigames generally aren't fun to play against and Zoe is no exception to this. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually got a rework tbh with how high her banrate has been since release.

19 Comments

Swarovsko8 votes

she can miss as many Qs as she wants, but all it takes is one Q landing to completely change the game

With champions like that (Blitzcrank old Nidalee for example) you can hide behind your tanks but this dumb bitch deals true damage on top of her Q being already busted so your front line will still take a lot of damage and won't last very long.

You can make any arguments you want about how Zoe may not be frustrating

Who would ever say she's not frustrating? Sure is fun having to costantly dodge Nami bubbles with 83724873535 range and qs which are as powerful as the armageddon Not to mention her random redemptions at level 3... seriously who would ever say this abomination is not frustrating in her current state?

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

Well old AP Nid was an abomination, but people still liked to defend her :p

I think her W is actually really cool and shouldn't be fiddled around with too much. I think granting her access to items is kinda weird and annoying, but the ability wouldn't be all that good if it was just summoner spells. It's a shame because her Passive, W, and R are all cool concepts, but her Q and E are so frustrating to play against.

Bogdan19451 votes

Zoe W item actives she gets have to be streamlined and weakened early or removed completely because every item active is usually toxic on her besides maybe a zhonya active(as if a stopwatch wasn't annoying enough) , i mean locket is bs if she gets it since it is a barrier levels 1-5 , redemption is also annoying since she gets a heal and push , protobelt glp and gunblade all deal way too much damage if she gets to pick them up early, youmuus is also toxic , sure she can get a mini ghost that doesn't need to be ramped up that she could use to roam faster

Spârky1 votes

I feel like this is a problem with all champs that have only one "offensive" ability. They have to overload that one spell with damage otherwise zoe would do almost no damage. I think what they could have done is give her w an actual spell instead of this item stuff and make her w do something with her q that gives it more damage then take off a lot of damage from the q itself so that not all the damage is overloaded into one spell. Just my thought. I like the random items but i think if you are going to do that the whole champ should be about the items. Zoe's identity has the whole item thing kind of just randomly thrown in their. She is a artillery mage with a random spell thing thrown in their that kind of imo feels out of place.

Śhunpo6 votes

I mean, I'd much rather take old Nid than Zoe. At least old Nid needed an item or two to one shot you, Zoe does it starting from level 2.

Dead flag blues3 votes

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I mean, I'd much rather take old Nid than Zoe. At least old Nid needed an item or two to one shot you, Zoe does it starting from level 2.

Old Nidalee could heal herself forever, to almost max HP with one E, old Nidalee became uncatchable once she reached 6 (when her shapeshifting was her ult). Zoe can't "one shot from level 2", the only time I truly one shot squishies with E+Q was when I got Haunted Disguise + Luden's Echo + Morello. Zoe has no mobility.

Śhunpo2 votes

Yes, and old Nidalee didn't have the best CC ability in the game lmao.

DracosKasu1 votes

Old Nid also have a visual bug that allow her to throw hidden spear and could keep her hp high with her healing ability.

Also Nid healing give a dps boost to your adc which allow a faster dmg to tower.

Yes Zoe have her issue but it is far less worse than what Nid was in the past.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, and old Nidalee didn't have the best CC ability in the game lmao.

Sleep is overated. It aint the best CC when getting maximum effect from it requires you to not attack the target.

Spank the Fox7 votes

You rather have the hyper-mobile, 3 second Pounce, literal one shot Nidalee over a rather immobile mage who can’t escape anything more than 1v1 without summoners?

Let’s not even bring up Nidalee’s heal.

ArfBarkBoof3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Od3ZlqwY,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-01-09T16:19:56.800+0000)

You rather have the hyper-mobile, 3 second Pounce, literal one shot Nidalee over a rather immobile mage who can’t escape anything more than 1v1 without summoners?

Let’s not even bring up Nidalee’s heal.

I'd rather CertainlyT never design another champion without some QA first, but old AP Nidalee was by far one of the stupidest goddamned things in the game.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Nida even in the old days didn't do much oneshots unless really fed, her Q damage was about on pair with Zoeys, but zoey has the bubble that adds lots of damage to it. She also had no wavelcear from range and non at all pre 6, so she had proper weaknesses to abuse. But most of all, she didn't have random active drops that allowed her to all-in you at lvl 3 as a poke mage, she was bound to poke till 6 and only then got acces to her all-in/finishing tools. Nidalee also didn't make you feel bad about getting and useing active items or useing summoner spells... And while the spears were ugly to deal with, the fucking bubble with a way to fast missle speed for the forgiving hitbox and stupid trap mechanic is far worse, it's so much harder to avoid and instead off forceing you to retreat and heal back up, it just straight kills you.

I 100% prefer faceing even S1 nida and her 1k+ heals over the abomination that is zoe.

Śhunpo1 votes

Nidalee didn't have any relevant CC, so her overall usefulness to her team is less than what Zoe can provide in the form of her bubble.

Additionally, old Nidalee was an absolutely terrible laner pre-6 and could not successfully jungle at all. So, it was extremely hit or miss as to whether you popped off and oneshot people outside of laning phase or you died 5 times in laning due to how bad she was in lane and then you lose the game because you're no longer relevant.

Plastic 5 ADC4 votes

Yeah i agree that Zoe is probably the most unfun champ to play against by far.

Revali2 votes

the main comparison to nidalee for me is just q, other then that nidalee was way worse considering her sustain wasn't awful and often built tear (I think) so you'd never really push her out of lane with that and old athenes.

Klavier2 votes

I main her, but playing against her is pretty obnoxious. I think the issue lies on her E which is pretty much what old nid Q used to be. A long range skillshot that can be thrown from the fog of war. The follow-up I don't think it's the problem because she's basically rooting herself for one second and she doesn't have an escape (which the old nid had). I would loved if her e instead of going through walls it would bounce when hitting one. (like a ball)

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Zoe Q is actually far more fair than Nod Q used to be. The thing you have to keep in mind is that Nid Q was simply a low CD skillshot and nothing more. Because of this, nid just relentlessly threw them out. She didnt need to do any intricate shit to maximise its damage or risk her positioning or anything like that. She just threw spears out over and over.

Some would land, some would travel farther than others and do more damage as a result. That was it.

Zoe on the other hand has to go through a bunch of settup just to get her Q to deal any damage at all let alone the chunking it is capable of.

Since she effectively needs to shoot it backwards and then telegraph it to move to a new location, this alone not only presents the oppportunity for it to be snuffed before any meaningful travel time is made by it, but also forces her to position in a way that is far more committed since its new lication has to be be relative to her, which not only telegraphs her more but puts her in more dangerous positions and making her more choosy.

Nid had none of that. She didnt have to care because there was zero risk and such little investment or settup in using her Javelin Toss.

Zoe has to basically use her entire kit to do what Nid did with 1 spell while also never having to put herself in harms way or set anything up the way Zoe does.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

It's still a similar concept. I would argue that having to shoot it behind her first can be stronger than Nid in a lot of cases, especially the early game, because it lets her zone the enemy laner really hard. Against Nid you could take advantage of your minions and stand behind them, but, because Zoe's Q is AoE, you need to backup and get out of the way once she throws it out making her zoning really frustrating.

Honestly, the setup she has to go through to get her Q to do a ton of damage is not difficult at all. You just throw it backwards and then reactivate Q to make it go the other way and do a ton of damage. Throw ult in there after level 6 and you're good to go. The travel speed it has is much faster than Nid's which makes up for its longer setup time. If she lands her bubble, then there's no way that she can miss it which is something that Nid never had. You say that she needs to use her entire kit to do what Nid did, but it's really just her Q and Ult. Her E is just there to provide massive zoning if she misses it and a guaranteed Q if she lands it and her Passive and W are kinda just there.

Of course Zoe's and old Nid's kits aren't exactly the same, but the concept of "Dodge this skillshot all game or you lose" is still basically core to her gameplay which makes her frustrating to play against. Throw in her E for even more frustration and you got yourself a champ that's not all that fun to play against.

leakinb1 votes

Shift her power pool to W, Q dmg down, E cc down, W dmg up Just keep her more risky (W has low range to hit)

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