you know runes are terribly designed

Critmaster Garen··3 votes·1,076 views

when not even a champion who wants to opt into a specific path can take any rune of that path, but half of them are literally impossible to proc.

edit.: since people dont really understand what im talking about.

Nasus is one of the champions who is expected to opt into resolve. yet there is only a single available keystone for him in that path. in the first row there is only a single available rune for him with demolish since hes incapable of proccing the other two.

Zac and many other tanks and fighters are entirely incapable of triggering shield bash on their own.

Annie is expected to opt into sorcery, yet celerity is entirely inaccessable to her aswell as most other spell casters without an inbuilt movement speed bonus available.

a lot of the rune pathes simply lack options in certain rows, even for the champions who are expected to opt into them.

this goes even for runes like manaflow band. every caster who uses mana (most mages) is balanced around the fact that manaflow band exists. meanwhile every caster that doesnt use mana is incapable of accessing the rune and only has 2 rune choices in that row as a result.

an example for a good rune is transcendence, which is accessible to every single champion in the game, and worth the same for every single spellcasting champion. be it a mage, fighter, assassin, enchanter or tank.

now imagine every rune was designed like transcendence. this would mean any champion who wants to empower his spells has options to chose from in that row from game to game, instead of being locked into specific choices depending on the champion youre playing.

12 Comments

Hotarµ4 votes

I usually don't mind reading posts or agreeing with people who dislike Runes Reforged, but this one has no evidence and is an extremely rare situation. What champion are you even talking about?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I usually don't mind reading posts or agreeing with people who dislike Runes Reforged, but this one has no evidence and is an extremely rare situation. What champion are you even talking about?

look at sorcery and resolve.

half of the champions who are opting into these pathes cant trigger certain runes.

for example for a lot of fighters and/or tanks, shield bash, aftershock and font of life are 100% worthless because they cant physically trigger the rune if they wanted because they either dont have movement impairing effects in their kits or no shields.

in sorcery its similar. while its possible for a lot of caster champions to trigger runes like celerity or absolute focus, theyre so detrimental to all but very few champions, that there is no point in even considering them for most of the champions who primary opt into sorcery.

the rune sysytem needs to be less restrictive and runes shouldnt be catered to specific champions, but certain playstiles as riot originally promised.

Hotarµ1 votes

Do you have any specific examples you can give me? Every champion I think of can make use of each keystone in those trees. The subsets of runes are very specific for Sorcery but can still be useful for everyone.

I would agree with another comment you made saying Resolve has some lackluster subsets but I think the keystones themselves make up for it. Grasp, Aftershock, and Guardian are all pretty good and can be used across a ton of lanes/champions.

while its possible for a lot of caster champions to trigger runes like celerity or absolute focus, theyre so detrimental to all but very few champions, that there is no point in even considering them.

I understand what you're getting at, but certain trees are going to be geared towards champion classes. It's usually better for mages to take Sorcery rather than Precision, etc. Marksmen/Tanks/Fighters just have a harder time using Sorcery, but Mages and Supports can make do just fine.

Like I said if you have any examples let me know, I just can't think of any off the top of my head right now but in general I think the runes can work fine for everybody.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Do you have any specific examples you can give me? Every champion I think of can make use of each keystone in those trees.

how does Nasus use aftershock, or shield bash? why would he pick up font of life?

just an example. you can replace him with any fighter without hard cc. there is a lot of them.

how does a champion without shields effectively use shield bash? shields from items alone dont justify the rune.

{quoted}

I understand what you're getting at, but certain trees are going to be geared towards champion classes.

i think this is where we both disagree.

riots original promise was to support playstiles and not champion classes with runes. this means sustained damage patterns, target access and burst, spellcasting, survival.

even if we consider that these trees are aimed towards specific champion classes, then we can both agree that resolve is aimed at fighters and tanks, correct?

so why are so many runes in resolve unusable for a lot of fighters and even some tanks?

tanks who cant reliably proc shield bash: Zac Sejuani Amumu Leona Rammus Maokai Alistar

they all dont have inbuilt shields in their kits and are incapable of making effective use of the rune as a result.

the same goes for any tank who solo lanes and is incapable of making effective use of font of life as a result. its useful later on during the teamfight phase for those guys, but there is still the problem that fighters need more selfish defense options.

if we go into the sorcery tree, then any non mobile mage like Lux Annie or spellcaster in general like Illaoi can absolutely not use celerity.

shouldnt sorcery in general cater to spellcasting champions, so assassins, mages, and fighters who are reliant on spells have a lot of choices and just arent locked out of options from the start?

Hotarµ2 votes

Yeah, but Nasus and other champions without hard CC (Garen, Maokai, Mundo, etc.) can make use of Grasp pretty well. Conditioning is amazing, Overgrowth is really good, and even if you can't make use of Shield Bash, just take Demolish. It might net you an easy first tower or help when splitpushing later on.

I also think Shield Bash is going to be buffed soon so for the champions it was designed for (Urgot, Shen, J4, etc.) it'll be a much more viable pick.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but Nasus and other champions without hard CC (Garen, Maokai, Mundo, etc.) can make use of Grasp pretty well. Conditioning is amazing, Overgrowth is really good, and even if you can't make use of Shield Bash, just take Demolish. It might net you an easy first tower or help when splitpushing later on.

the problem is still there that the existence of the other two runes takes choice out of the tree.

youre locked into specific runes. there are no options to pick anything else.

I also think Shield Bash is going to be buffed soon so for the champions it was designed for (Urgot, Shen, J4, etc.) it'll be a much more viable pick.

the problems is, that these runes are desgined for specific champions in the first place.

champions who can make effective use of a rune that is designed for them never will consider another option. champions that dont have a rune designed for them will always take the one option thats left.

Hotarµ2 votes

I know Riot said they'd try and make every rune viable for every champion, but that's going to be nearly impossible. There's no way to make Aftershock proc on Garen, they can't just rebalance the rune solely for him/silences because then it'd be abused by people like Kassadin, Cho, or Soraka (as an example) I just don't think it's possible for every rune to be useful on every champion.

the problems is, that these runes are desgined for specific champions in the first place.

Yeah, tankier champions struggle when against Fighters/Juggernauts in the top lane, they need to have specific runes for ones who rely on heals or shields.

champions who can make effective use of a rune that is designed for them never will consider another option. champions that dont have a rune designed for them will always take the one option thats left.

Yeah, but that's the lesser of two evils. If there isn't a rune designed specifically for them, they're just left with the scraps and they suffer more than the meta champions who can more commonly make use of things.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I know Riot said they'd try and make every rune viable for every champion, but that's going to be nearly impossible. There's no way to make Aftershock proc on Garen, they can't just rebalance the rune solely for him/silences because then it'd be abused by people like Kassadin, Cho, or Soraka (as an example) I just don't think it's possible for every rune to be useful on every champion.

Yeah, tankier champions struggle when against Fighters/Juggernauts in the top lane, they need to have specific runes for ones who rely on heals or shields.

Yeah, but that's the lesser of two evils. If there isn't a rune designed specifically for them, they're just left with the scraps and they suffer more than the meta champions who can more commonly make use of things.

i think its possible to change the runes in a way to accomodate anyone who is epxected to opt primary into that tree. (ex: anyone who likes to build health and resistances and wants resolve as a result).

if aftershock makes a lot of champions overpowered when they could access it, maybe the problem is that aftershock is shitty designed and the champions who take it too dependent on the rune (which is currently the case in my honest opinion).

second wind, boneplating and even demolish are honestly the best examples for how (at least non keystone) runes should look like. accessable to anyone who likes extra health and defenses, instead of runes like shield bash that only work for specific champions.

the same for transcendence in sorcery. any single caster champion will value cdr, and the rune is equally useful on Veigar as it is on Riven Darius Talon

however celerity on the other hand is complete garbage on Veigar but god tier on Hecarim who is THEN balanced around the runes existence.

meanwhile every spell caster who uses mana is balanced around the manaflow bands existence, while casters like Riven Zed Garen Rumble Renekton Vladimir cant even access the rune and have 1 less choice as a result.

the rune is terribly designed because its over synergistic with specific champions, while completely worthless on so many champion who should have a reason to opt into sorcery (champions who are spellcasters).

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

A rune being literally impossible to proc is an incredibly situational instance.

Sudden Impact, Aftershock, and Hexflash are the only three which you might not actually be able to use. Every other rune might be incredibly niche depending on the champion (such as Shield Bash), but are not impossible to use (as, in theory, anyone can run Overheal, take item 3072, or be shielded by an ally).

And all three of those have other options that pretty much anyone can use. You can run Grasp or Guardian instead of Aftershock, you can run Cheap Shot or Taste of Blood instead of Sudden Impact, you can run whatever the other two options for Hexflash are.

Yeah. There are runes that are going to be suboptimal on a lot of champions. Shield Bash is only going to be good on you if you have a shield of your own or if you have a support who will consistently be shielding you. Legend: Alacrity is only going to be useful if you actually get AS.

And that's nothing new for anything. Every game has stuff that's technically possible but always going to be suboptimal. You can take a high constitution on your rogue, but it's never going to be as useful as a high dexterity is.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Sudden Impact, Aftershock, and Hexflash are the only three which you might not actually be able to use.

shield bash, font of life, manaflow band, overheal.

notice how a lot of those runes are in resolve too?

the general rule should be that if a champion is expected to opt primary into a certain path, then he should be able to actually pick any of the runes in that path.

Zac shouldnt be incapable of picking up shield bash.

fighters shouldnt be incapable of picking up aftershock or have font of life being worthless to them.

my general gripe with this system is, that in a lot of cases runes are designed specifically to synergize with certain champion kits, which makes them completely worthless for other champions. this just takes a lot of choice out of the system.

Shen will never consider something besides shield bash in that row in resolve, and Darius will never consider anything besides demolish.

yes, i know darius has conqueror, but what happened to the rune system allowing us choices?

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Shield bash: Everyone can technically get a shield from items, runes, or allies. I explicitly stated it in my comment. Literally if you had read the next line you would know this.

Font of Life: Red buff has a slow, does it not? There are also a good number of items with a slow attached. Most champions can get at least one of item 3153 item 3146 item 3116 item 3025 item 3022 item 3030 item 3905 item 3800 item 3706 upgrade or item 3143. And a huge number of champions also have some kind of CC in their kit, with, as far as I know, every champion in the game is either able to buy one of those items or has at least a slow.

Manaflow band: Okay. I actually forgot that Manaflow existed for a hot moment. That's on me.

Overheal: Literally any lifesteal or vamp item allows this rune to function. You also have options such as Smite, Redemption, allies, Heal, Ravenous Hunter, Taste of Blood, Legend: Bloodlust...

And you have to note that not every rune is going to be useful.

Again, nothing's technically stopping Zac from using shield bash. It'd just be like our 20 Constitution on a Rogue. Is it a bad thing mages can't really go item 3153? If not, then why is it a bad thing that some champions can't use certain runes effectively?

Tahminatrix 1 votes

Some strong keystones that most champs can use are just balanced around having a tree full of mostly niche runes and the fact that the only few non niche runes in the tree are able to be utilized by others in their secondary.

(cough domination cough)

But then again, most trees have niche in them, if youre complaining about not being able to utilize a tree like domination as garen because you cant use any of the first row runes really effectively, but im sure there are assassins having trouble using resolve as their primary.

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