How to add counterplay to Darius W -> Q for immobile champions

Z3Sleeper·May 31, 2018·46 votes·12,962 views

Make his W only slow by half the total amount when moving towards him, that way you can more reasonably "dodge" the Q by moving into it since that was the intended counterplay.

This doesn't affect his ability to catch targets, since a target running away will probably not want to move closer to the person chasing them, but it does add more reasonable counterplay for immobile champions to duel Darius in lane.

I don't think Darius needs nerfs or anything, I'd be fine if he got some sort of compensation for this (really don't think he'd need it though), I just think this change needs to happen to make laning against him as an immobile champion more feasible.

Edit: after some thought I realize this only really matters very early on. It would be totally fine if this effect scaled down with rank or level (ie. 50/62.5/75/87.5/100% of slow amount when moving towards him)

38 Comments

Warlord RhinarkMay 31, 201819 votes

So kinda like a Shen or a Tryndamere slow?

Z3SleeperMay 31, 20185 votes

Essentially. Still partial slow cuz Darius does use it sometimes as an escape tool and I'm not trying to suggest anything that would take options away from him.

GeauxxMay 31, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Essentially. Still partial slow cuz Darius does use it sometimes as an escape tool and I'm not trying to suggest anything that would take options away from him.

I don't think there could be any meaningful compensation buffs for it that wouldn't make him too strong.

Maybe a bit of extra damage in his hilt Q damage? that way it's not an overbearing buff but makes the W slow worth something, since the slow at all will mean alot when he has his Phage for the extra movement speed eventually

ROX PrimeMay 31, 20182 votes

Why does he need compensation buffs? Hes actually cancer to play vs if u are not a ranged champ.

GeauxxMay 31, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=ROX Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OV4AOGxI,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-31T08:24:19.539+0000)

Why does he need compensation buffs? Hes actually cancer to play vs if u are not a ranged champ.

Because his whole point is to be a slow moving, higher damage lane bully.

Z3SleeperMay 31, 20181 votes

Still though, I agree (with the first part, not the cancer thing). I don't think a ranged champion would want to move towards him in the first place if he's already in auto range.

Don't imagine he'd need compensation honestly.

Automated RivenMay 31, 20186 votes

My biggest problem with Darius is that he doesn't fall off. I'm fine if he is a slow moving high damage lane bully if he fell off in a 1v1 later.

FurriesAreHotMay 31, 20182 votes

He doesn't need to fall off if he can't catch most of your team. He can get to a point where he cant be killed, but so can many champs. He gets dumpstered by anti-tanks and ranged carries.

Tychusfindlay918May 31, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OV4AOGxI,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-31T12:24:51.718+0000)

My biggest problem with Darius is that he doesn't fall off. I'm fine if he is a slow moving high damage lane bully if he fell off in a 1v1 later.

He actually does fall off in the duel. His teamfighting can still be potent late game, and that was the tradeoff riot made when they took away darius instant Q.

MorganFreemanBotMay 31, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OV4AOGxI,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-31T12:24:51.718+0000)

My biggest problem with Darius is that he doesn't fall off. I'm fine if he is a slow moving high damage lane bully if he fell off in a 1v1 later.

Darius falls of.

He doesn't fall of numbers wise because he's not supposed to; he's supposed to always be a ticking time-bomb of a damage threat which can soak some punishment and also heal a decent amount in ideal cases.

Darius falls off in that he's totally immobile (summoners not withstanding), has to 'warm up' before he starts to hurt, has a very small threat range, and doesn't have the tank steroids needed to survive a sustained focus fire. After lane phase you're supposed to control and ignore / focus fire him, because he's tough but not tanky and sticky but not a catcher.

Z3SleeperMay 31, 20182 votes

Yeah this is pretty much every juggernaut. They fall off in the sense that later enemies deal exponentially more damage and start ignoring resistances, taking juggernauts down faster than they can approach through the CC.

Their damage was never meant to fall off, just the application of it in teamfights naturally gets harder due to the class’s weakness—immobility.

GeauxxJun 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OV4AOGxI,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-31T12:24:51.718+0000)

My biggest problem with Darius is that he doesn't fall off. I'm fine if he is a slow moving high damage lane bully if he fell off in a 1v1 later.

But that's his litteral job tho... a beefy damage dealer who doesn't have an engage, he's not supposed to fall off like that if he gets a lead. that's the point of a juggernaut

OurLestradeMay 31, 201810 votes

Like Shen slow? I think that's more than fair for someone whose counter play is all position based.

Shuriman CuratorMay 31, 20189 votes

As someone who loves to play Darius, I'd be for this change. Seems reasonable and I'd be for no compensation (at first) just to see how he fairs then adjust accordingly. But it shouldn't affect him. +1

RocketRelmMay 31, 20181 votes

I mean, I'm against this change purely because it seems like the smallest thing that'd have. very little impact on anything full stop. The raw complexity penalty of adding it feels like useless bloat more than anything.

If we're adding a counterplay measure, it should mean something.

TheSingularityJun 1, 20181 votes

The issue is, what other counterplay can you give him that's meaningful? Phage removes the mobility issue and allows him to catch just about anyone in lane, 2 of his spells are point and click, his grab may as well be point and click as the only time you miss is when they're out of range. And he beats just about every melee champion in the game in a straight 1v1, hell he'll 1v2 in many cases

His Q is the only place to add fair counterplay because it's the only thing he can screw up

We could add stupid things to his kit that merely annoy the player.

If he misses his Q he flings his axe away and has to pick it up, can't use spells til he gets it back. Missing his grab cripples him If he cripples a minion, cripple cooldown is doubled. ect

RocketRelmJun 1, 20181 votes

I mean, I'd disagree that the E is "basically hitscan" because memorizing the range and utilizing the edge cases isn't a low-skill factor. I agree insofar as it's a one-sided skill check, though.

I'd say we'd need to change his W if we wanted to 'add' skill to his kit, ultimately. I've no idea to what, really, cause its primary value to him is as a 'free stack' that applies quickly enough so. you can still get it and a free Q off of a pull. But that's the best place to add it, since auto attack abilities and auto attack. champions tend to be the lowest skill.

TheSingularityJun 1, 20181 votes

Potentially they could change his ult into a thin rectangular projectile which prioritizes champions, then champions with the most stacks, then critical champions who'd be killed by the ultimate. It would then deal its regular damage to anyone else hit (so he can't penta execute) This means his ult can miss adding the ability to flash it, dash it, spell shield it ect.

A QOL improvement for the opponent, which is a flat out nerf is to change the damage type of his passive to magic damage. This will kill the passive synergy with black cleaver so he doesn't simply AA you and proc all 5 stacks. Darius will then have to actually try and get the stacks onto you with all 3 spells+AA. I would also remove this part of the passive " instantly applies full Hemorrhage stacks through his usual means." The reasoning being it is by far the strongest DOT spell in the entire game at almost every stage, even stronger than full AP teemo when u consider MR's effectiveness vs armor.

I'm honestly in a pickle. He's a juggernaut who should be kite able, but his kit+phage completely negates this. Perhaps a movement speed nerf? idk

D357R0Y3RMay 31, 20188 votes

so then darius gets fucked by both mobile and immobile champions?

why can't immobile champions slow him back anyway?

Z3SleeperMay 31, 20181 votes

Yeah this is what I don't want to happen. If this fucks Darius over then nevermind. Was hoping for a compromise with the reduced slow rather than no slow at all.

PB4UAMEMay 31, 20183 votes

Darius is literally designed to beat only immobile melee characters, and your proposed change literally only affects him ideally against the exact targets he's supposed to be picked into, and act as a counter to. . .

Pika FoxMay 31, 20186 votes

.... But.... Why? Why nerf darius vs immobile targets? Those are what hes supposed to be good against....

DuskDaUmbreonMay 31, 20182 votes

Because against immobile targets it's almost zero counterplay.

He's not meant to autowin against them if he has two brain cells that bump together once during the entire match.

Jaygo41Jun 1, 20183 votes

POSITION BETTER. I don't know what to tell you. Not every champ should have counterplay in every situation. Darius is already pretty weak by design

DuskDaUmbreonJun 1, 20181 votes

"Position better even though you're an immobile melee and you're supposed to be a frontliner!"

Yes. 10/10 logic. I, as a Leona, will just use my TONS of mobility and range to stay away from Darius in teamfights. Or I'll just use my 650 range as Nasus to avoid his pull in lane.

ForFoxSakesJun 1, 20182 votes

you walk into him to avoid getting hit by the outer ring. less damage, no stack and no healing

Z3SleeperMay 31, 20183 votes

Good against and completely one sided are different things. Pre-6 for most immbile champs boils down to don’t even be in E range or you’ll die/lose flash.

It adds more skill depth to both the opponent and Darius himself. Landing Q is supposed to be counterplayable. W essentially removes that counterplay vs certain champs.

I’m not suggesting it not slow at all, he should still stick after catching a target, just now you have the option to risk getting closer and potentially eating more autos as a trade-off for “dodging” Q.

My Waifu VanillaMay 31, 20181 votes

But in the end you still take more damage from the autos.....if you say get auto'd twice instead of taking the Q blade you take the lowered Q damage and 200% total AD and 1 additional stack of his passive PLUS an extra tick since Darius has an attack speed less than 1.0 (so it's guaranteed to stack an extra time before being reapplied). The only thing you're gaining from moving in is generally lowering the health difference between you two since you hit him back and deny the heal.

ZephyrDrakeMay 31, 20184 votes

so... make Daruis one strength he has be gone... good I didn't want him to be good against anything either

Tychusfindlay918May 31, 20182 votes

I dont mind adding counterplay to W Q but since q becomes even more unreliable I'd like a small buff like this.

first off, handle needs to go back to 50%.

healing now scales from 12 to 12/12.5/13/13.5/14 missing % hp per champ hit. Nothing too serious, but just a small compensation for losing reliability.

PB4UAMEMay 31, 20181 votes

With the range nerf, making more of the Q into hilt rather than blade, then also nerfing the hilt damage, he would seriously need something like this if he lost any power anywhere else.

ROX PrimeMay 31, 20181 votes

I think this a nice change, will never happen. Rito never takes game advice from the people that play the game. They leave it up to the wheel. (Margaritaville but with lol champs)

SpiderGhandiMay 31, 20181 votes

It really wouldn't make that much of a difference. Darius almost always builds Black Cleaver or Trinity force so he'll still out maneuver almost anyone that doesn't have a movement spell. Most of the time if Darius decides to fight you getting closer is not a good idea even if you dodge the hit. Unless you're fighting him with an advantage, you dont want to be anywhere near him. Dodging q would be prolonging the inevitable.

NhifuMay 31, 20181 votes

Darius is in a good spot. Kind of like Yasuo :>

ShablagooMay 31, 20181 votes

Isnt it like a one second slow? Also which immobile champions are you talking about because darius is also a immobile champion as well? Why should you add more counterplay, because there is some already in his q, when he should be rewarded for getting in melee range?

Mokuto BunshiMay 31, 20181 votes

I like this idea

My Waifu VanillaMay 31, 20181 votes

The only champions that have a hard time dodging the blade are semi stacked Cho'Gath and sion and such since their hitboxes are large enough you have to literally stand on top of Darius. Even still it is still arguably better to take the blade since going into him means you are going to end up taking autos and NO tank (the only class really having a problem with Darius which they SHOULD) wins auto trades with him especially since auto attacks work with ALL 3 of his keystones and generally gets him to apply 3-4 stacks even after you auto run out (E+auto+W+Q (which you move in for)+At least 2 more autos since you are in melee now).

Z3SleeperJun 1, 20182 votes

Yorick Urgot . W slow makes it essentially impossible to dodge for these guys. Ironically, he does the best vs other juggernauts in the early levels. And by best I mean atrocious minion zoning you get 0 CS good.