why is strength of the ages being removed?

Critmaster Garen·Oct 18, 2016·42 votes·20,422 views

adding courage of the colossus, sure. but strength of the ages is really not an issue and an overall pretty balanced mastery. there is enough room in the tree for 4 keystones.

granted, i still think the 5% heal is totally useless by the time you get it, and i still think it could use some adjustments to be more useful for laners. but the mastery is not overpowered (fervor? where is the nerf to that?).

and honestly, if a mastery was replaced by a full defensive mastery, i was actually expecting it to be grasp.

106 Comments

RiotSquad5Oct 18, 201635 votes

Someone already mentioned in this thread the fact that champions that weren't intended to want to go into the resolve tree felt forced to go into it to gain the raw stat power that SoA was offering. Whether the mastery was overpowered or not wasn't really that much of a factor when deciding to remove it honestly - SoA wasn't really fitting the goals we initially set out for when we changed to the keystone mastery system.

A big reason other champions wanted SoA was the fact it was such generalist power. Health is almost always a good thing to have in league of legends, regardless of what champion you are (especially as a jungler). Resolve though as a tree is intended to serve specific playstyles of champion classes and subclasses (Juggernauts, Wardens, Vanguards aka tanky champions), especially when you get down to the bottom three keystones themselves.

In removing SoA we want to sharpen the options available at the keystone level such that they feel more attached to what you're planning to do when you take them. In this case, we removed the super generalist health increase and put in something aimed at giving Vanguard initiators and tanky building Divers to choose and feel good about.

Also just to add, SoA was boring. We wanted to replace it with something more fun.

RiotSquad5Oct 18, 201614 votes

People might worry that certain champions become worse without SoA, want to add that removing this mastery actually helps allow us to make changes to the champion to bring them up if needed without worrying about them getting raw health from the mastery tree.

Malicious MetalOct 18, 201615 votes

So like, can Mordekaiser actually have Juggernaut stats now so he can get Grasp and not feel like a complete waste?

MelledoneusOct 19, 20165 votes

And can Shen not have some of the worst stats and scaling stats in the game?

ScoroctOct 19, 20163 votes

not gonna lie it kinda sucks getting out dueled by shen no matter my top laner because his passive shield, dodge area, and %hp dmg let him outrade me before he roams to somewhere else on the map.

Critmaster GarenOct 18, 201624 votes

{quoted}

Someone already mentioned in this thread the fact that champions that weren't intended to want to go into the resolve tree felt forced to go into it to gain the raw stat power that SoA was offering. Whether the mastery was overpowered or not wasn't really that much of a factor when deciding to remove it honestly - SoA wasn't really fitting the goals we initially set out for when we changed to the keystone mastery system.

A big reason other champions wanted SoA was the fact it was such generalist power. Health is almost always a good thing to have in league of legends, regardless of what champion you are (especially as a jungler). Resolve though as a tree is intended to serve specific playstyles of champion classes and subclasses (Juggernauts, Wardens, Vanguards aka tanky champions), especially when you get down to the bottom three keystones themselves.

In removing SoA we want to sharpen the options available at the keystone level such that they feel more attached to what you're planning to do when you take them. In this case, we removed the super generalist health increase and put in something aimed at giving Vanguard initiators and tanky building Divers to choose and feel good about.

Also just to add, SoA was boring. We wanted to replace it with something more fun.

interesting that you mention juggernauts.

did you realize that the resolve tree has become so terrible for them, that a lot of them arent even going into the mastery tree anymore? there is a severe lack of scaling defensive masteries right now, while cunning and ferocity bring a lot of % damage amplification masteries.

ive seen nasus mains usually go into cunning fo stormraiders right now.

ive seen some of the few above plat garen mains left this season also go for stormraiders.

last time i checked, illaoi goes for dft. her highest win % build doesnt have a single point in resolve.

voli goes for fervor, which is no surprise.

morde goes for stormraider.

last time i checked the new yorick goes for dft.

the only juggernaut who actually still goes into resolve for grasp seems to be darius right now.

removing strength of the ages instead of giving it some slight improvements for laners feels like it just removes another option for this class and another incentive to even consider the tree, since juggernauts dont even have the form of cc needed to trigger the new keystone.

Malicious MetalOct 18, 201611 votes

Yeah the resolve tree's keystones flat out suck for Juggernauts. SoTA was really great on some of them though but now there's even less of an incentive to invest points into resolve.

Heck, I feel with the new support item being added Bond of stone could as well be removed.

dragon1xxOct 19, 20163 votes

Honestly, the support keystone options would get... I don't even know. Like as a tanky support, BoS is pretty much my bread and butter. If I lose that, I really honestly can't think of a keystone that fits the tanky AND support playstyle.

RiotSquad5Oct 18, 201611 votes

It's kind of hard to say honestly. I would probably argue that some of those cases the mastery they moved to naturally fit their playstyle very well and give them something they actually needed (like Nasus wanting more maneuverability and sticking power) and those champions can get away with less tankiness since Juggernauts have a mixed identity between tankiness and damage.

For the rest, I think tuning is a big point here. Many of those you listed felt fine using Grasp when it was stronger. It could be that Grasp needs a buff or the others they are using are too strong. (Not saying that either of those statements are true or false.) I don't think many Juggernauts would want something like Bond of Stone in general.

Obviously it's not perfect, but hopefully we'll be in a better position to make needed changes going forward.

Critmaster GarenOct 18, 201616 votes

{quoted}

It's kind of hard to say honestly. I would probably argue that some of those cases the mastery they moved to naturally fit their playstyle very well and give them something they actually needed (like Nasus wanting more maneuverability and sticking power) and those champions can get away with less tankiness since Juggernauts have a mixed identity between tankiness and damage.

For the rest, I think tuning is a big point here. Many of those you listed felt fine using Grasp when it was stronger. It could be that Grasp needs a buff or the others they are using are too strong. (Not saying that either of those statements are true or false.) I don't think many Juggernauts would want something like Bond of Stone in general.

Obviously it's not perfect, but hopefully we'll be in a better position to make needed changes going forward.

i dont think its just the lack of keystone synergy.

the only really interesting mastery for juggernauts is runic armor, the tenacity and resistances (which take up the same space). the entire way down to the keystones there are only 2 masteries they really want.

honestly the entire resolve tree feels like a little bit of utility with health regeneration sprinkled in. no actual impactful defense. while cunning and ferocity bring very noticable damage amplification masteries in addition to godlike keystones like fervor.

RiotSquad5Oct 18, 201610 votes

There's a couple new 1 pointers that should help this a bit. (Spoiler alert I guess.)

Critmaster GarenOct 18, 20166 votes

{quoted}

There's a couple new 1 pointers that should help this a bit. (Spoiler alert I guess.)

go on :)

WoonStruckOct 18, 201616 votes

Btw, if SotA is considered boring, how is Fervor not considered boring?

More health that scales with everything and offers tank junglers some sustain while clearing vs bonus AD that doesn't scale with anything.

Honestly, Strength of the Ages is more interesting and hasn't broken the balance of the game at several points, unlike Fervor.

Hell, Fervor completely RUINS the ranged vs melee dynamic by making it so melee practically can't function vs it.

Delete Fervor if you know what's good for your game.

RiotSquad5Oct 19, 201610 votes

Fervor is getting some fairly significant changes too. It definitely shares similar problems, but it's not fully replaced like SoA was.

ProvengreilOct 19, 20167 votes

Just gonna drop my 2G here, I really think it's the %scaling in the offense trees vs flat scaling (and low numbers at that) in the resolve. Back when there was % scaling in the trees and cinderhulk was better, my tank builds actually felt tanky. Now I just get torn to pieces by everyone in a couple seconds.

Nice work on toning down the assassin button press rate though. I could never play them because hitting 3 to 6 keys at maximum speed always felt stupid to me as a playstyle, and many of the better katarinas I faced looked like they were scripting sometimes (I'm sure they weren't, but still). Not to mention it was pretty much a damage check vs the enemy health bar, giving them little meaningful opportunity to even play. At the very least, talon looks fun as heck. I gotta see if the new one can handle jungle, the pathing and gank routes would be amazing.

WoonStruckOct 18, 20168 votes

How about nerfing damage masteries so they aren't universally superior to the rest of the non-support masteries? That includes Keystones.

Fervor is still obscene, and there's at least 15% additional multiplicative damage you can take from offensive masteries.

Each offensive mastery feels like "Yes, I want this", whereas the majority of defensive masteries are like "I guess I have to take this..."

Raid Boss MordeOct 19, 20163 votes

I build SotA on Mordekaiser every game when I go top... Stormraiders isn't that necessary unless you're mid or bot. It makes up for his awful base HP.

AinTheBrainOct 19, 20163 votes

Nah, as a Darius main I go for stormraiders so I can get kills under their tower and gtfo before I die.

DrohhanOct 19, 20162 votes

same, stormraiders every time

Earl EulrichOct 18, 20165 votes

so just like fervor that basicaly enabled all that bruiser-ekko and co nonsense? where´s the change to that? at least SoA did a good job in supporting tank junglers that anyway had a rough season in this way to dmg focused league of yours.

AbyssphereOct 19, 20162 votes

They already said Fervor was getting changes. Wait for the next PBE.

Big LincolnOct 18, 20166 votes

Also just to add, SoA was boring. We wanted to replace it with something more fun.

being forced to sit on my Q as Sejuani so I can fish for a bigger shield with R doesn't strike me as fun.

I'm sure this is going to throw a handful of tanks into top tiers and they'll get nerfed as a result

fun.

RiotSquad5Oct 18, 20169 votes

It's not based on the number of enemies you CC. It's based on the number of enemies around you when you CC anyone.

DeathBurstOct 19, 20161 votes

That seems... a little too easy, I guess?

I mean, I won't complain, I like when my job is easy, but having the same pay-off wether I hit 1 or 3 persons with my Sion Q, it seems strange.

I'm pretty sure you tried other models before setting down on this own, so can you elaborate on why you finally chose this one?

AdriqnoheeOct 19, 20163 votes

Because not all tanks have AoE hard CC.

Chromatic EagleOct 19, 20161 votes

So I'm a boosted animal that doesn't understand the difference.

AdriqnoheeOct 19, 20161 votes

That means that in a 5 v 5 Amumu won't get more out of the mastery than someone like Volibear who only has a single targeted hard CC.

Chromatic EagleOct 19, 20161 votes

not even with his ultimate?

Photos of GhostsOct 19, 20165 votes

Let me make it more clear: If Amumu ults 5 people, he gets a certain amount of shield. If Amumu Q's one person in the middle of 5 people, he gets THE SAME AMOUNT of shield. If Amumu Q's one person on its own, he gets less.

Kei143Oct 19, 20162 votes

Lets assume that the proximity of the CotC proc is around ... a max range Leona Zenith blade.

So her catching the backline squishy in a 5v5 team fight (assuming the sqishy is in the back line, properly positioned) will give her a 500HP shield (example number).

However, if she were to Solarflare and hit all 5 enemies, she wouldn't get a shield as the Solar flare range is further than the zenith blade range, thus not procing the CotC proximity check (even though she hit all 5 people).

So what it means that the range of the CotC check is pretty important on how it works.

If its short ranged, then it'll work better on Volibear, as opposed to Amumu (bandage toss range is pretty long)

DeathBurstOct 19, 20163 votes

When you apply hard CC to any number of enemies, the game checks how many enemies there are in a radius around you, and gives you a shield based on that number. The number of enemies actually hit by your CC isn't taken into account, you just need 1 to trigger the effect, and then it's just a proximity check.

Is it clearer?

PandanticsOct 19, 20161 votes

You're essentially buffing naturally tanky JG champs and removing the possibility of non-naturally tanky JG champs from the meta by removing SoA and replacing it with the new mastery. Champions like Amumu Sejuani Zac will now get a shield for just ulting in on top of them already being tanky. So not only will they be rewarded for their hard cc, they'll be harder to kill and have no punishment for diving/ulting. Whereas non-naturally tanky JG champions like Diana Nidalee will have less healthy to clear camps/engage in team fights and have no use for the new mastery because they have no hard cc to activate the mastery. So effectively, you're narrowing the pool of JG-champs that can be used the game by indirectly nerfing squishy JG-champs with the removal of SoA. I thought League was trying to expand the possibilities of the pool of champs that can be played in each role with the new classification of champs and mastery update not make the pool smaller.

RiotSquad5Oct 19, 20164 votes

I think the core of the problem comes back around to the fact that Diana and Nidalee feel like SoA was necessary to succeed. We don't want them to have to take this mastery, but when it exists if we buff them such that they don't need it they still just double down on it because raw stats are powerful even if they are boring. By removing the mastery we are more able to see if these characters need help, and are in a better position to buff them to make them work if appropriate.

I'm not saying that either of them need a buff or not though, but we can see.

Shadow HazardOct 19, 20162 votes

Frankly making warlords work in the jungle will be a massive change alone for improving the heal of clears. But something that can be said is that almost every jungler without built in tank/health (heals/shields) will have to have their base defenses either buffed or in the odd cases of champs that may have had it completely removed (kindred armor/heal for example) may have to get part of it returned, rather than getting some new tweak.

ArakadiaOct 19, 20161 votes

For the new mastery, does the shield scale with tank stats? Otherwise champions like Lux might become even more safe. And does it stack for hitting multiple enemies?

RiotSquad5Oct 19, 20162 votes

Yea, it scales off of your HP as well as the fact that shields inherently scale up with tank stats since you take less damage and most don't calculate damage pre-mitigation.

SergeantScuttlerOct 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Someone already mentioned in this thread the fact that champions that weren't intended to want to go into the resolve tree felt forced to go into it to gain the raw stat power that SoA was offering. Whether the mastery was overpowered or not wasn't really that much of a factor when deciding to remove it honestly - SoA wasn't really fitting the goals we initially set out for when we changed to the keystone mastery system.

A big reason other champions wanted SoA was the fact it was such generalist power. Health is almost always a good thing to have in league of legends, regardless of what champion you are (especially as a jungler). Resolve though as a tree is intended to serve specific playstyles of champion classes and subclasses (Juggernauts, Wardens, Vanguards aka tanky champions), especially when you get down to the bottom three keystones themselves.

In removing SoA we want to sharpen the options available at the keystone level such that they feel more attached to what you're planning to do when you take them. In this case, we removed the super generalist health increase and put in something aimed at giving Vanguard initiators and tanky building Divers to choose and feel good about.

Also just to add, SoA was boring. We wanted to replace it with something more fun.

Isn't this new mastery weaker on tanky junglers without high CC, such as Olaf, Sion or Mundo?

AbyssphereOct 19, 20162 votes

People like Mundo and Olaf will be expected to take Grasp I imagine.

MonkeyMadnessOct 19, 20163 votes

Except now I will just be taking my SoA champs and either running thunderlords, fervor, or possibly grasp of the undying. Unless this shield from the new keystone is huge, damage creep will always win out, and you've failed to address this fatal flaw.

AbyssphereOct 19, 20161 votes

I feel like a group of champions who always took one mastery being split into 4+ masteries is exactly what they want to happen, so what's the problem? Nobody ever said they want SOTA users to port directly to this.

MonkeyMadnessOct 19, 20162 votes

You're right, most of them will have absolutely no alternative to chose at all, and will likely be entirely phased out of the meta...

WoonStruckOct 19, 20162 votes

Vlad doesn't really have much now.

SotA made it so he could get out of his trash-tier early-mid sooner due to being a little less squishy. Essentially forced to give up slow resist+tenacity now as well.

At least you'll know the Vlad is bad if he isn't taking SRS.

WoonStruckOct 18, 20167 votes

Nope, Fervor granting effectively 280-3640 gold worth in damage to ADCs and other users is WAY more balanced than Strength of the Ages granting 801 gold worth of stats. :^)

_P.S. Fervor out-classes maxed SotA by level 3 in total effective gold granted on a per-fight basis. _

Axe2HandleOct 18, 20164 votes

That gold value is incorrect as it only applies to auto attack damage, it doesnt add anything to the ratios on abilities.

WoonStruckOct 18, 20165 votes

ADCs don't care about the ratios on their abilities that much. They care primarily about auto attacks, otherwise Cait, Jinx, etc wouldn't be taking Fervor as well in favor of Warlord's Bloodlust.

Axe2HandleOct 19, 20161 votes

It doesnt add to Caitlyns Head Shot. It doesnt Splash with Jinx's Fishbones. Im not saying it isnt a strong mastery, Im just saying its not worth as much gold as you claim it does.

Critmaster GarenOct 19, 201611 votes

{quoted}

It doesnt add to Caitlyns Head Shot. It doesnt Splash with Jinx's Fishbones. Im not saying it isnt a strong mastery, Im just saying its not worth as much gold as you claim it does.

fully stacked fervor at lvl 18 is 112 physical on hit damage. no matter how you look at it, it outperforms every other keystone by miles and is downright unfair on champions who synergize with attack speed.

not to mention adc with hurricane can hit multiple enemies with that damage dependent on their positioning and their individual interaction with the item (cait headshots as mentioned).

fervor is really that bad.

III BAKURYU III Oct 19, 20167 votes

Any type of sustain or health item or mastery is being gutted from Riot.
I feel like this game is less about sustaining but more about just fighting-fighting-fighting-fighting. AKA Mortal Kombat 2.0.

The old option to have biscuits/potions/flask together is gone because players could play safe while farming in lane but that option is now gone, but instead we get a new flask that only benefits fighting. Some people just want to worry about CS and the lane phase not about kills 24/7, I thought worrying about CS was important and knowing how to freeze lanes proper was too.
Didn't we all get told back in the day that only bronzies worry about kills, while CS marks the great players? Now look kills are more meaningful than Cs is. You cant freeze lanes anymore, any and every sustain item is getting gutted but the damage of the item isn't being affected. Which should let us know that Riot only wants people to fight again, over and over again.

I'm most likely wrong but I see the upcoming patches with the items, stealth champions, 15 min surrender option(which just means in low elo players will want to surrender even early before they even hit their champions power spikes) and it's not interesting me and the game has been on a slipping slop for me personally. This will be my last year playing this game, nothing wrong with this game as a whole but I personally don't care for it as much anymore.

Genuwhine36Oct 18, 20163 votes

bad players everywhere jesus. "sota was balanced" hello? sorry that at gold elo anything works but at the top level ALL YOU TAKE IN THE JUNGLE IS SOTA. Why? because you literally get free hp while still being able to deal insane amounts of damage. It also rewards you to power farm and counter jungle which is why graves and nidalee are so good. Ask any high elo jungler sota is broken.

Critmaster GarenOct 18, 201610 votes

{quoted}

bad players everywhere jesus. "sota was balanced" hello? sorry that at gold elo anything works but at the top level ALL YOU TAKE IN THE JUNGLE IS SOTA. Why? because you literally get free hp while still being able to deal insane amounts of damage. It also rewards you to power farm and counter jungle which is why graves and nidalee are so good. Ask any high elo jungler sota is broken.

of course you took strength of the ages into the jungle.

because it was the only kestone that helps you jungling. all the other ones dont do jackshit for you (i think dft might be the only keystone that even triggers on jungle monsters).

the mastery itself isnt op, its just a lack of alternatives why it was taken on every single jungler.

and as far as free stats go, fervor ruined most of the season. its about 70% of the reason why bruiser assassins were a thing. the rest being % health damage in their kits.

and its batshit broken on marksmen aswell. fervor jsut grants way too much item independent damage to auto attackers.