Defeatism in the League

Lost R··59 votes·4,240 views

More than the all-assassin meta, more than smurfing, trolls, drophackers, toxicity, the pro-LCS meta, and anything else you can think of, this is the most self-destructive part of League: Defeatism.

What's defeatism? Simply put, failure is the only option. If something doesn't go completely right, if something goes wrong, the first reaction I see in too many games is pining for the twenty minute mark when you can surrender and end the game early. Even games where the teams are closely tied in kills and objectives, I see the surrender vote spontaneously pop up. Sometimes it happens on the other team, even when they just aced us is a 2/5 trade.

League is many things, but boils down to three major elements:

Teamwork: Combining your strengths and covering each other's weaknesses. Strategy: Careful planning to maximize the impact of your strengths. Adaptation: Remove the enemy's strengths and exploit their weaknesses.

Where one fails, the others are meant to compensate. In a defeatist League, however, all three fall to the wayside without contest. This comes in the aftermath of several games where an all damage team refused to venture even past our half of the map to take out a turret when the entire enemy team comes after me, where I am doing exactly that, to dump literally all their ults and summoner spells on me. I told my team explicitly, more times than I want to remember, to push elsewhere while all that was going on. The minion line was up at the enemy turret, which could have fallen easily due to all the damage our team hypothetically had, and no one dared to even lift a finger because they thought the game was already over.

Simply put, defeatism is the most toxic thing in League by far. The mentality simply stops you from actually playing the game and it only serves to hurt yourself, your teammates, and even the enemy.

75 Comments

Leti the Yeti8 votes

only point I need would revise is "teamwork"... yeah that needs to be changed to "carrying your sack of potatoes" utilizing the enormous damage output from 1 fed ass mofo to cover for the weakness of the entire team

man... when was the last time i lost a game cuz their "teamwork" was just too good Katarina MasterYi ....

stuartk1117 votes

{quoted}

only point I need would revise is "teamwork"... yeah that needs to be changed to "carrying your sack of potatoes" utilizing the enormous damage output from 1 fed ass mofo to cover for the weakness of the entire team

man... when was the last time i lost a game cuz their "teamwork" was just too good Katarina MasterYi ....

I have to disagree. The mentality of "I have to carry this game" is usually just nonsense. Having a single "fed" team-mate will not allow that player to just instantly win the game on their own. By that logic, when you are behind and not fed, you are guaranteed to lose. It is easier to win by Teamwork than by trying to accumulate a massive gold lead for a single person to have it and attempt to "carry".

Lost R6 votes

I think everyone has at least one story where they were the fed champion and their team still lost. Rarely is this because they've been stealing gold from kills from the rest of the team; Darius tends to be really good at that. Usually this is because the enemy will turn and focus on the fed player and crush him into oblivion, or the fed player simply isn't taking objectives (assuming they aren't a mage or support; I don't expect a fed Veigar to blow up a turret as easily as Tristana), or their allies aren't taking objectives while the enemy team leaves to suppress the fed champion. The importance of a fight is to remove the enemy presence from the greater objectives where they could contest it: the turrets/inhibitor/nexus/dragon/baron. The gold is a relative bonus.

Master Yi's greatest strength when contesting a turret is to get many fast hits in and leave before the enemy can retaliate. Trundle is in a similar fashion; only a fool would let an enemy Trundle even so much as look at an allied turret without a champion there to protect it.

That's how I see myself whenever I play a tower buster (Master Yi, Trundle, Udyr, Vi, Xin Zhao, Tristana, Jinx, Rammus, Wukong), or even if I'm not. Killing an enemy or saving an ally is fine, but my greater objective is going to be uncontested towers. If I know the enemy's location and I know I can deliver a serious wound or even destroy the turret, I'm going to seize that opportunity, doubly so if I'm fed.

Leti the Yeti2 votes

Carrying exist cause you are the only one you can KNOW for certain is dependable and not a total fking moron the alternative is trusting 4 people on the internet... that sort of trust and coordination does not exist in the lower elos

When you lose despite being ahead, we call that throwing... ya fuqed up m8, you finally made some bad calls... being fed doesnt mean you wont make mistakes, or get away with mistakes.. certainly makes it easier tho but once you are ahead, the other team is completely at your mercy till you fuq up Maybe it's no mistake... sometimes you just get out-comped.... There are so many other more plausible reasons, I'm willing to dismiss "teamwork"

and it's not that hard to captilaize on that... 1 for 1 trades are more beneficial to the team who is behind after all just takes some time... more or less depending on elo for mistakes to pile up

stuartk114 votes

{quoted}

yes, it also requires that the 4 other members divert attention and block skillshots... which they have already been doing for the last 40 minutes call that team work if you will

i perfectly acknowledge the umm "teamwork" where everyone soaks up all the cc and kat comes in with her 2k+~ ish AoE damage and wipes out the enemy team

Wouldn't she die pretty much instantly if she jumped into a full team. Or take any hard CC or silence?

Leti the Yeti1 votes

she won't cuz

i perfectly acknowledge the umm "teamwork" where everyone soaks up all the cc and kat comes in with her 2k+~ ish AoE damage and wipes out the enemy team

cc? what cc :D oh right, it was all .3 seconds ago... now you die

I was never a good assassin myself but I tampered with Talon abit... In team fights, I just stood around out of reach from everyone... saw cc was down, or someone was outa positioning and I easily came in and killed that person

biding your time isnt that difficult Sometimes I make gettaways just by teleporting safely... I wouldnt do it BEFORE their cc goes down, then I know for sure something will go wrong lol

stuartk112 votes

{quoted}

she won't cuz

cc? what cc :D oh right, it was all .3 seconds ago... now you die

I was never a good assassin myself but I tampered with Talon abit... In team fights, I just stood around out of reach from everyone... saw cc was down, or someone was outa positioning and I easily came in and killed that person

biding your time isnt that difficult Sometimes I make gettaways just by teleporting safely... I wouldnt do it BEFORE their cc goes down, then I know for sure something will go wrong lol

In which case, having your team having proper TEAMWORK and co-ordination is a good way to counter that. So technically, you're winning from a lack of teamwork from the opponent as an assassin.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

Assuming neither team has teamwork, the team with the fed kat is probably gonna end up winning Assuming both teams have teamwork, the team that's ahead will most likely come out ahead

stuartk112 votes

{quoted}

Assuming neither team has teamwork, the team with the fed kat is probably gonna end up winning Assuming both teams have teamwork, the team that's ahead will most likely come out ahead

The team that has the better co-ordination and synergy will usually end up being better. Getting gold leads is the best way to combat this.

Partholonian4 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't she die pretty much instantly if she jumped into a full team. Or take any hard CC or silence?

Not after the 12th or so kill. Of course she only gets that far if people aren't paying attention to her roams even after the 3rd or 4th kill, which is why you never see it happen in pro play.

Enkidusmurf7 votes

Gotta ask: If you were a "total fking moron," would you know it?

If you are 10 minutes into the game and presuming from that point that your teammates are idiots and you have to carry them, doesn't that predispose you toward taking unnecessary risks?

By "teamwork," I think we mean to include positioning, communication, cooperation, etc. You know, the sort of thing that the "You're all stupid, I'll carry" mentality just sort of strangles.

S H A Y C 05 votes

A lot of high elo players have told me that i have to take responsibility and carry my team to victory. But i think i interpret it different than the people here.

I have to do my best to carry the game, but that doesnt mean i have to get all the kills. I have to be the catalyst by which my team snowballs a victory, and the means by which i do this depends on role and champion. However it DOES NOT involve the mentality that everybody but me is a total moron. Even if they are total morons, its still my job to carry them, and that may mean "babysitting" them to victory, involving myself in teamfights i dont think we should be going in on, and sometimes it could feel like herding cats when you ping a dragon or a tower.

The proper way to rephrase "i have to carry the team" is: "It is my responsibility to do everything within my power to ensure victory and when something goes wrong I could have done something different and I need to adapt my strategy to make the "TEAM" "WORK"

You dont always have teamwork and coordination, but you can modify your playstyle to make whatever nonsense your featherbrained team members are doing "work" Change the way you view the game and do what you can to make your team work, make the comp work, be annoying and pick someone off, then follow your one dude that goes in everytime he sees somebody and try to get the whole team to go with you...why? because he is going to to go in anyway, and just letting him feed the enemy makes it harder for you to win, so just back him up. Teams that work together stupidly can beat a team that works alone wisely.

Anybody ever notice that when bronzies dont know what to do they just all group mid? Ever wonder why that all of a sudden starts granting them kills and towers and dragons somewhat magically? becuase stupid as a unit is stronger than your hyper carry super fed solo carry.

AFK Push1 votes

It's all about pressure baby.

xX420n0sc0pzXx2 votes

{quoted}

Carrying exist cause you are the only one you can KNOW for certain is dependable and not a total fking moron the alternative is trusting 4 people on the internet... that sort of trust and coordination does not exist in the lower elos

When you lose despite being ahead, we call that throwing... ya fuqed up m8, you finally made some bad calls... being fed doesnt mean you wont make mistakes, or get away with mistakes.. certainly makes it easier tho but once you are ahead, the other team is completely at your mercy till you fuq up Maybe it's no mistake... sometimes you just get out-comped.... There are so many other more plausible reasons, I'm willing to dismiss "teamwork"

and it's not that hard to captilaize on that... 1 for 1 trades are more beneficial to the team who is behind after all just takes some time... more or less depending on elo for mistakes to pile up

Well what do you do if you KNOW for certain you are undependable and a total fking moron?

AFK POWER NAP1 votes

I dont know. Im still trying to figure that one out.

;p

Occams Raiser1 votes

I can remember being carried one time as of recent. It we were down a man from AKF before the laning phase was over. This guy playing Wukong said hang in there. We can win this. I'm already up on kills. He dominated with trickery I hadn't seen before. Porbably cause I rarely have time to watch what top is doing. But I watch this guy get off with double or triple kills before dying. The only thing we three had to do is hold while he split pushed. Anyone that tried to go get him fell. If they gang him, they were so crippled we could push one of the other lanes til he respawned. He carried us. He just wasn't a source of unstoppable damage. He was an inspiration where I would have given up normally.

IF this isn't what your story sounds like, you didn't carry shit. You say "Look at my damage, my kda, or my gold." There is a difference between being the most fed and carrying. Do you know the difference?

tifas left elbow5 votes

Had a match like that just recently. My usual group was one short, so we ended up having to call in someone to jungle for us. Something bad happened (don't remember what) and he was automatically "Surr@20 plz" Sure enough, 20:01 rolls around and he starts a vote and immediately gets smacked down by everyone on team. And we won.

Some people :\

The Paulrus4 votes

Surrender definitely has its place. I agree with a lot of the people here. If your chance of winning is <10%, why waste half a game's worth of time just to lose? If you win more than you lose, statistically, you should forfeit the likely to lose games to increase your win-loss number. There are times when the game is over well within 5 minutes. For example, if your team has an AFK, or if their champs composition directly counters yours, or you have a troll/feeder. If the enemy team has 10 kills to your 0 within 5 minutes, you probably should surrender and cut your losses, especially with the snowballing effect that exists in league.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Won a game where it was 3-17 in 15 minutes and our ADC fed twice within the first 3. It was because our ADC stole dragon at the 18 minute mark with a Q and I realized they weren't good, they were just snowballed and fed; with good positioning (both map and tactical) and vision control (especially keeping our jungle ward free and collapsing on enemies that came in to ward/deward), we were able to shut down their fed lanes and win.

There are some games where you completely get outplayed; there are other games where the enemy isn't actually good, but just snowballed. If you can tell them apart, then you know which games should be surrendered, and which games shouldn't. It usually boils down to vision control. If you cannot enter your own jungle without dying, its probably gg. If you can aggressively maintain vision control over your own jungle and keep at least inner turrets up, then even if the score is 3-17 you have a chance.

chipndip13 votes

There's a glass half-empty version of this post that someone could make, but that's just stupid to do, anyway.

Just note there's always two sides to every coin. Some people surrender too early. Some people are bone-headed enough to never surrender. The latter is definitely more annoying since it's much harder to stop two people trapping you in a death derby than it is to stop just one person from adding to a surrender vote of 3, seeing how it already takes 3 people to get that far.

Kairya3 votes

I agree with this a lot.

I especially notice this very often in ARAM where people start to play completly defensive, just because the opponents have a lot of those poke mages, or similar things. They (the defensive team) start running the moment an engage starts, and always leave at least one person behind. They just feel they have no chance right from the start, and don't even try.

At the same time I experienced match ups like that, where those tanks, off-tanks or just close ranged carries reacted more like a wild horde and crushed those puny mages beneath them. You win those games.

I also can't understand it, because everyone must have experienced those games (ARAM as well as SR), that suddendly turned around completly. Isn't it worth to try you best in hopes of achieving this?

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I love that feeling. Happened in a game recently where my entire team got all comfort picks, but no poke (Just Nidalee and Ashe).

Myself, as Renekton and the only moderately tanky person on my team, proceeded to Slice and Dice through the enemy team, just screwing around, going for the MF. Next thing I know, we got a tower. I was dead, but we aced them and got a tower.

Proceeded to repeat the above as I built as tanky as possible. Slice and Dice through, rampage on everything like a crocodile man should, die, and watch the next tower die. Went great until I got cocky and built a Tiamat when I shoulda built Randuins. We still won, though.

JC DarkOmen3 votes

I present to you the overwhelming evidence that you should forget that this game has a surrender button:

Every time except literally yesterday when I've had a Kennen mid while I'm playing jungle Udyr, Kennen goes afk, and our team goes on to win without him.

I once won a game against a 44/4 Katarina.

I once won a game where our Darius was carrying, but got mad at us for not following up on his insane initiations so he quit and our team won without the guy carrying us.

I once had a game where the enemy pushed all the way to our nexus while we were dead, then our Tryndamere respawned and suicided because he thought it was over. 8 seconds after that the rest of us respawned, aced them, and pushed to their nexus. We woulda won, but someone decided to give up and suicide...

There are several videos on MachinimaRealm on YouTube where one team stops attacking the nexus and either dances around or suicides on the fountain thinking the winions had it. Meanwhile, they "losing" team comes in, pushes all the way down, and wins.

I once had a really tough game where we were incredibly behind (this was last season, before dragon gave a buff. I went and split-pushed a tower and the goon squad came up behind me. I ran past 2 turrets, into their base, behind their nexus, past 3 turrets, killed that last one, and all the way back to base while they were chasing me and my team took dragon (and you know there's only one champ who can do that, Udyr. It's why I main him). Because of that, the enemy team surrendered. No comebacks, only 1 real objective; just a bit of showing off was enough to crush their spirits...

I had a game a couple of weeks ago where we were behind in every way possible, and then we got into a teamfight in the jungle where Ezreal had to split off from us and found himself 1v2 against their fed bot. Somehow, he managed to get the double while we won the 3v4 and we completely turned the game around.

Last night I had a game where I had to constantly remind my team that the enemy had no tanks and that I have a ~77% win rate with Udyr because they were getting creamed in laning phase. Sure enough, three teamfights later saw us in their base hitting nexus turrets. So even when we would clearly have an advantage later in the game the team still wanted to surrender. they should be... Asheamed...

Soybean162 votes

I completely agree with this post

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Lost R3 votes

It's not a problem of IF you surrender; sometimes it's validated. The problem is when it's abused and people are too early to call for surrender, especially if you're only in the five minute mark, and yes, this happens very frequently in my experience. That's the point that I'm getting at.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

I agree with most of this, except I think toxicity is worse for the game that being defeatist.

Lost R7 votes

Defeatism goes beyond the game, though. It also affects who you choose or your attitude towards certain champions. You see it too often in the forums. One person or another gets nerfed, and suddenly, even if they're at the very top of the pyramid, everyone now considers them below trash tier and bemoan that their favorite champion is now ruined, even if the adjustments were minor ones. This is, by extension, what led to the refund policy change.

GaleWinUnleashed6 votes

They can continue to nerf Janna and Lulu if they like, it's not gonna stop me playing those amazing kits =P

I don't need the AP scaling, all I'm after is the utility. Lots and lots of utility.

Lost R5 votes

Funny you mention Lulu, because I had her in mind when I wrote that post, since I'm a Lulu main myself. Lulu had a lot more than scaling nerfs, though. They nerfed basically everything except her ult, and for good reason. She's still remarkably dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as she once was.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

I'm not in it for the damage or the scaling at all. All I want is a shield and some CC. As long as she still has her aoe slow, Whimsy for any reasonable duration, a shield, and her ult, I'll stay happy. Heck, I don't even build any AP, all the scaling in the world isn't going to do much with just 22 AP from masteries.

... Hang on... In that case, I may as well shift those points somewhere else. How silly of me.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

I was a lulu main too, but recently I gave up on her. Poke support tend to outpoke me and still have more mana than me, kill supports just focus me and my adc, and even if I use all my skills to trade with them, I lose the trade and my mana. Recently I picked up Soraka, and I realised she does everything I wanted Lulu to do. Safer poke, bearable mana costs, endless heals, and infinite range on Lulu's ult. Even her silence is aoe and instant, so the lack of knockup on her ult doesn't even hurt me as much.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I fixed my mana problems with regen runes, it's working wonders for me.

I can't stand Soraka, though. One silence isn't enough CC for me. Hope it works for you, but I'm sticking with Lulu!

AbodyHUN6661 votes

It's true that you need a good team comp for Soraka, and Lulu is better with a squishy assasin team, so I might not give up on the purple madness then. And trust me, noone expects that amount of sustain.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

I just love the saves Lulu can pull off. She can give someone a burst of several hundred more health, and even after that she can still completely disable an enemy for 2.25 seconds. Usually that's enough time to turn around a close fight.

DynamiteGazelle2 votes

Don't play on the Korean servers then. Most afkers I've ever seen.

"Oh, they got first blood?"

A PLAYER HAS DISCONNECTED

Squeekems2 votes

I had my first ranked match in a long time yesterday. I thought, "How unlucky can I be if the first game in month has someone treating a ranked match like a normal?"

Five minutes into the match, while we were just beginning to take the lead, one of my teammates decided that because they, themselves, fed too much and that the game was over. They AFKed declaring that our team was garbage and that even if we had the lead for now, it will not last.

It is hard to argue that we will keep the lead when it suddenly becomes 4v5 and objectives are beginning to be contested.

Flemman2 votes

I have one rule I follow for all my league game.

"You fail, you play"

warpenguin5552 votes

Yeah, i had a guy once who even though we were winning in towers, kills, and dragons, he spammed surrender because he went 0-2 in lane...

SpectralWraithX2 votes

Totally agree with this. One time I was playing support Nami and our team was losing badly. We had been pushed back into our base and had lost our nexus turrets. One guy kept trying to surrender but the rest of us outvoted him. We kept winning team fight after team fight in our base, barely hanging on with only one person surviving each time. And then we were like, ok we gotta push. So finally after one team fight where we had more then one survive after the team fights in our base we made a massive push to take their nexus. That game took like an hour and a half. If we had surrendered we would have automatically lost. But, we fought tooth and nail, barely hanging in there. And because of that we won. Boy, that was the longest game I have ever played.

I know a guy who if he's losing lane and has been killed he's like gg and seems to not want to try anymore.... That is where I feel like the defeatism comes in. One or two bad plays where you lose a couple of people does not mean that you've automatically lost the game. I feel like some people want a win handed to them on a silver platter and if they find themselves at a disadvantage, it's easier to just give up and not try anymore. I feel like people need to show some tenacity.

Blam Blam2 votes

The new philosophy of the 13-16 age group: If it's not faceroll, it's hopeless.

grug2 votes

IMO DEFEATISM IN THIS GAME IS ULTIMATELY A RESULT OF POOR GAME KNOWLEDGE WHEREAS PLAYERS CANNOT EQUATE SIMPLE THINGS SUCH AS CSING=KILLS AND SIMPLE PERIPHERAL MAP AWARENESS. IM IN BRONSE 3 WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT AS WELL THROW AWAY THE MINIMAP. TOO OFTEN, I SEE PEOPLE; REFUSING TO ENGAGE WITH A NUMBERS ADVANTAGE, BARON FOR NO REASON, SPLITTING WHEN THEY CAN RUSH THE NEXUS, AFRAID OF DYING WITH A HARD ENGAGE CHAMPION THAT HAS AMASSED 3-5K HP, CONTINUING TO BUILD GLASS CANNON WHILE DOWN 10KILLS. I HAVE EVEN BEEN IN SURRENDERED GAMES WHERE THE SURRENDERED TEAM EVEN HAS A MINISCULE GOLD ADVANTAGE.

BakedLotion2 votes

I mean if your whole team is 2 level behind, they have like 20 kills on your 0, just admit defeat. Lol. At that point they're just playing with you and waiting for u to respawn to kill u again

AFK Push2 votes

I don't like to give up so easily, but I fucking hate those guys that say "never surrender" when it's like 5 to 20, they have like 9 towers on us, 4 drags, and we lost all inhibs. Pls for the love of God can we surrender at that point.

Lord Malice2 votes

The defeatism in this game is partially justified. Certainly a lot of ppl do give up too soon ie. first blood or first dragon etc. But aside from that, defeatism is partially justified by the snowball nature of the math in this game. The math in the damage and counter damage have a compounding effect, and it doesn't take that long before the odds stack up too strongly against you. If you happen to Die to your lane opponent and they grab an extra 10 cs 15 cs because of it, you are at a significant disadvantage when you get back to lane. Thereby increasing the odds that you will die to them again, then it's another kill and another 10 - 15 cs, should this happen one more time it becomes an almost un-scalleable mountain to try and get back into the game. Then you may lose your tower and the global math now starts to compound against your team and not just you. Hence why comebacks are so rare.

The only strategy at this point is to "Turtle" to try and delay the game until experience and gold catch up with each other. In my opinion that's a very boring strategy and it rarely works. This is the main problem within the overall design of this game, it is a very difficult one as well. I have no idea how it could be fixed but until it is more greatly mitigated you will continue to see defeatism at present levels in the game.

jmaishere1 votes

Yesterday I had a ranked game, where our poppy literally complained the whole game about how we were going to lose, starting when I as a jungle amumu took our blue in which be whined about how i didn't give it to him. From there, he whined about how every lane fed and how he was doing oh so well, in the end, leona and I carried and we won. Just because every lane lost their lane doesn't mean you can't win.

BakugoBestBoy1 votes

The problem with this is it's very hard to gauge how useful your team is/will be when you aren't doing well. I never like say "GG" in all chat when I get ganked or anything but I know if I don't feel like I can contribute in a significant way I'll get lost in a game and then be completely oblivious to the fact that someone else on my team still sees how to win and carries me to victory. Basiaclly when you expect to be on a team with 4 bots vs TSM it's easy to be a bit defeatist.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

I had one ironic game where my four teammates reported me for carrying onto the bitter end instead of complying with a surrender vote. Three of the four were actively complaining that I didn't surrender and the fourth quit earlier into the game and reported everyone for not surrendering.

Needless to say, the opposing side had a very easy win when 4 out of 5 people stopped playing to bitch and whine and afk at the fountain.

Krigjer1 votes

I'll surrender a game we're clearly winning if my teammates are doing nothing but arguing. I'm here to have fun, not bicker endlessly over trivial things. Surrendering gets me away from players I dislike the quickest.

(Obviously I'll stick it ou tin ranked)

Snow Taradien1 votes

I HATE this I CAN'T stand this just. Ugh,

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