riven's rework is already said to be very experimental and they're willing to take it down

Big Lincoln··144 votes·7,811 views

because her mains don't like the change, even if it's a potential buff to those who have mastered her with the damage increase and non-execute ultimate

in the time i've been playing this game (around shortly after Jinx's release), i have not seen the same courtesy shown to other reworks, except for Lee Sin. (of course)

Cassiopeia players hated the rework that completely altered what she was. All they asked for was a grace period on her E's reset to make her combo smoother; what they got was an unwanted rework that turned her into this awkward, time-based carry. A myriad of poor design decisions were forced into her kit while overloading the hell out of one ability so that she'd be "functional." Before, she was able to at least play somewhat flexibly; Q max was a viable option, and her E spam was, too. Riot decided to neuter her poisons in favor of making her E completely central to how she plays, failing to realize that, from what I've seen, most players would have MUCH preferred her being THE premier DoT mage, someone who can really satisfy that theme of a poisoner. Riot did much worse than not keep up with player concerns; they lied about saying they would, and then the man notorious for it now, Stashu, disappears for months at a time. After a brief period of being too strong, she is now both bland AND undertuned.

Mordekaiser mains protested the drastic changes that completely alter how he plays and feels. All of the experience previously mounted up is gone; you can no longer play him in solo lane without being a detriment to your team. His skill maxing order has been made less diverse, his build path is less interesting (build tank or die) and he is no less frustrating for others to play against as evidenced by the constant complaints about how strong he is. He is now a shell of his former self who can't even enjoy a game in the pro scene because the one ability he's centered around using for damage is ridiculously overtuned at the cost of the others (notice a trend?). Riot ignored all criticism regarding it and it took weeks before the person who spearheaded it even bothered to reply to complaints. Currently, Riot has not announced any future plans to satisfy the people who prefer his old, much more varied playstyle.

Just because a champ is unpopular doesn't mean that you should feel welcome to throw their rare but beloved designs out the window in favor of some grand vision that will magically raise their play rate (the exception being extremely archaic designs that have proven to be genuinely bad for the game -- Warwick is sad you shelved him). Please don't rework them in ways that are the exact opposite of what their communities ask for, then refuse to change more popular champions because they have a larger group to flood Reddit and Boards with.

142 Comments

Blade of Justic37 votes

It's because many Riven mains go ballistic when anyone touches Riven with the nerf bat or even jests about it.

Heck, I've seen them flat out insult people and try their best to belittle them as to feel like they "Stayed true to the waifu."

I don't know what it is about Riven, but people are way more defensive about her than about any other champion. Like, "Attack on me as a person" defensive.

Big Lincoln26 votes

it was the same thing with the lee rework

when it was announced there was a massive backlash from lee players, when personally I feel like that altered kit would've made him an easier champion to tune and work with

there's been similar outcry with other reworks but they've been pushed through with minimal changes

Sightless6629 votes

There was a backlash even from people who weren't Lee players. The response to that rework was extremely negative, because in all honestly, it was probably the single worst designed rework Riot ever had the audacity to put before us. Even people who hated Lee jumped on that as being a stupid idea. Scrapping huge amounts of ability damage and early game potential in favor of shifting his gameplay around his passive in the late game, which is arguably the single most boring part of his design and also the least-supported part of his design as the game goes on. It's like Cassiopeia's rework shifting all of her damage to her E, except that Cassiopeia was at least slightly E-centric before her rework. Lee's rework made an active attempt to kick everything he had to the curb in favor of autoattacking with a shitty steroid. That was legitimately terrible, and it really was almost universally hated.

Dropping Lee's rework was one of the best things Riot ever did in terms of listening to its community, and my only regret from it was that they apparently forgot that lesson and started dismissing feedback again on later reworks. They should be doing what they did with Lee more. They should be paying more attention and trying harder to create designs around what players want, instead of making designs and then trying to force players to like them..

Big Lincoln9 votes

yeah i just looked it up to see if my memory was right -- it wasn't

i am glad they didn't go through with that, jeez

HAIL WHYDRA4 votes

CertainlyT should have done the change to riven so that it goes though no matter how the community feels.

KappaNotkappa

The Sword Saint6 votes

That's probably because riven players are like oppressed third class citizens in game and on the boards, and people default to making statements that are 'attacks on them as a person' as the go to thing to say to a riven player.

Blade of Justic12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OIg7f9Vu,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-10-02T21:01:50.035+0000)

That's probably because riven players are like oppressed third class citizens in game and on the boards, and people default to making statements that are 'attacks on them as a person' as the go to thing to say to a riven player.

Ya, um...

Pretty sure no one is oppressed on this forum.

The mods will make sure that everyone is allowed their opinion as long as it doesn't break rules.

The Sword Saint15 votes

Mods won't stop riven players from getting mass downvoted purely by association, nor will the step in and delete large amounts of passive aggressive comments and posts that are always being thrown around. It's so deeply entrenched into these boards to hate not just her but her players that people might not even realize what they're doing when they are discussing completely different topics and slip in a few jabs at riven here or there or post their 'hur dur riven main defending freelo' comments over and over anytime someone says anything about the champion that isn't 'scumbag freelo faceroll champ, please nerf so I can enjoy tears'.

Some days are worse than others, but it's such a widespread and general trend here that it's sickening. Mods can't keep up with the neverending tide of garbage that just casually floats towards riven players. 90% of the earliest comments people had when they heard about the experimental riven changes were attempts to quickly rub as much salt in any wounds their might be as possible, despite that the changes turned out to be a general buff, because the kneejerk reaction around here is to try and victimize riven and her player base as much as possible for some kind of internet cred or something.

You yourself made a dumb ignorant comment about 'defending mah waifu'.

Blade of Justic6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OIg7f9Vu,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T21:29:56.151+0000)

-snip-

Pretty much everything you mentioned has been happening with every champion and every champion main since the I've started playing. (Season 3)

Downvoting doesn't do anything but show a number on a screen.

As for that attacking of a person, it's not okay in any manner, regardless of who it's being said by. I've never attacked a specific person, only the people who have attacked others and not even directly.

People on this forum with be the way they had been for a while but, at the very least, you and I both can STILL post to our hearts content.

Curling Veigar17 votes

Same with the Veigar rework backlash lol

Big Lincoln14 votes

Well, he did end up eventually being as good as old Veigar

At least right now, who knows what we'll be seeing on the PBE soon, lol

Keevalroy12 votes

EVENTUALLY. Sure, and how long did he suffer before he became good again?

Big Lincoln9 votes

up until they buffed his range and reduced the E delay

i think he was passably strong after that point, now he's in a very good spot if maybe slightly overtuned

Dingding12310 votes

He's not the old Veigar though.

.75 seconds means a lot to a yordle wizard.

Riot insists that he is Veigar, everyone that hated the old Veigar or didn't play the old Veigar insists that this is Veigar, but I believe Veigar is dead, alongside Xerath, with no shrine for rememberance except my memory of 1000+ games with them.

AtheosisX10 votes

To be fair they already said these were experimental changes.

Big Lincoln65 votes

why aren't more drastic changes experimental?

why do Mord and Cass players have to lick Riot's boots for the tiniest amount of information and still get radio silence?

also sorry for the timing on your post and me editing the title

The Sword Saint11 votes

They probably had all kinda of meetings and months of iteration and planning before they came out with the Mord and Cass reworks, meanwhile Rickless just throws up some shit he had been personally tinkering with just to see what happens so it's not as much a resource commitment to take it or leave it.

SeductiveGrandpa5 votes

why do Mord and Cass players have to lick Riot's boots for the tiniest amount of information and still get radio silence?

I have the strangest feeling that this will be the complaint reason for every new rework now...yikes...

well if we're gonna be serious, the PBE/Live Boards has a bad habit of cheering on something and it comes completely broken on release, I mean as a company I feel Rito shouldn't have to listen to the community on every single thing/release, criticism is good but really they should be able to release something without having to listen to the community on every single thing. I'm going to take an assumption here and believe that these two reworks were done as Rito trying out something new, ya know a fresh change to the normal formula of just reworking a champ to work better in its position (like new minigun ashe and her no longer useless passive) and since the boards usually complain about things that work out well, maybe they just took the chance that it would be good.

Its not like the champ was destroyed, IMO, Mordes always been annoying and stupid gameplay wise(Sorry cass too, but I really just hate DoT champs) But the reason I wrote this was to point out that Riot has stated multiple times that they have a system where they work on multiple things instead of everything at once so they can have more things out frequently. I mean they just cant drop all their work and fix Cass/Morde and whose to say that will even make everyone happy about those two again? If the community says: "This re-rework failed again!" and the board circle jerks complaints again, they'll just start an annoying and time wasting loop. Like Rito always does, they'll just keep on going with their work til the time returns to try out another scenario with the two, I mean with everyones complaints, you know this wont be their state for a long time (2-3 yrs).

Edit: Didnt answer the question woops, Its obvious you're getting silence as they haven't done any work other than testing for them.

(Sorry for the rant but holy shit im so sick of seeing this, whats done is done, find another cool champ to main while Rito fixes shit, I suggest Gnar )

Big Lincoln14 votes

idk cass has been going on close to a year and stashu is still mia

i have little hope for mord at this rate

Voluug134 votes

Stashu will pull out a Scarizard and never touch champions again, probably relocated into something where he cant destroy things.

AtheosisX8 votes

As far as the question of why Riot listens to the outcry of players on some changes and completely ignores them on others, I think it has a lot to do with how much they are internally committed to a particular change. For whatever reason they were certain that the Cass and Morde changes were necessary even though the outcry was intense, but when it came to Lee Sin they backed off. I don't think it's really about the popularity of these champs either, aside from their popularity internally. Riot is consistently inconsistent in virtually every way when it comes to balance and design.

7zhas1oVlI7 votes

You have to realize it's a buff. As a Riven main, I don't like the change because it'd make her extremely broken and make more bad players cry abaout how "good" her lanephase is.

Big Lincoln7 votes

read the first sentence of the OP

because her mains don't like the change, even if it's a potential buff to those who have mastered her with the damage increase and non-execute ultimate

gubigubi6 votes

They reverted Quinns experimental rework though. So they have done this before. And Fiora s first rework.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i never knew quinn had a rework

i'm just salty because i liked both of these champions before their reworks, and now i don't

KingWanahakalugi5 votes

Yea they were experimental but they've already said they're coming back for another round of testing in 5.21. That doesn't mean that they won't make these exact changes in the future. annnnnnd downvote.

Big Lincoln19 votes

that.. has nothing to do with my post.

riot has said that they're willing to retract these changes if they don't pan out in an appealing way to players

they have given no such promise for anyone else

annnnnd downvote

The Sword Saint4 votes

They said they were experimental days before they hit the pbe - they were declared experimental at the very first time anyone knew about it at all.

Baron of Bread4 votes

Just throwing it out there that there was a previous Mordekaiser rework that was on the PBE at one point but never went live.

just a memory4 votes

Riot has no consistency when it comes to game balance.

Goodest Gamer4 votes

i main riven and i wasnt very harsh to the rework. most of the others are just trying to figure out how to adjust to the rework and its been removed right now. dont judge us all like htat lol.

ApexInTheCircle3 votes

My only issue with (most) Riven players, is the bad attitude they bring into game with them. If they're winning they usually tend to talk shit at a more vile rate than most others. I see them spamming their Mastery symbol at the slightest outplay or escape they do(I.E they're extremely arrogant) And there are statistics to prove that they are more likely to afk in a game.

this one was from 2014 http://i.imgur.com/sGpEcVy.png

Again I'm not saying ALL riven mains are like this, just a vast majority of them.

Lady Hammerlock3 votes

i like the riven change (not a riven main btw don't even own her) why? it rewards riven players for using there abilities wisely and autoing in between and now punishes those who roll there face on the keyboard to get a triple kill

although boxbox said it will make her more annoying to play against

Hay5eed3 votes

Unfortunately there comes moments in design where you have to do something that the fans don't want in order to give them something that they need. "If I had asked them what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse". That being said what happened to Cassiopeia is appalling, and Darius is so kinda broken right now so I feel like he is going to get the same treatment.

It is always nice when a champion has a diverse build base, where you can build tank, or attack damage, or maybe AP, but this causes a lot of problems for the design teams from a balance standpoint.

Building/balancing a tank? Look at their abilities and scalings/base damages and such and you only have to keep in mind around 8 to 10 items.

Building/balancing a tank/mage/AD fighter? Now you have 3x as many items to keep track off, and you have to make sure that each build is both not broken AND also still viable.

As far as listening to the fans, why the HELL would you consult the players that main a champ while attempting to balance/rework them? They are going to fight you tooth and nail every step of the way because they are set in their ways about how they feel the champ plays and its character. All you are going to get is resistance.

What you want to do is NOT just focus on those who main that champ but the entire fan base as a whole, which frankly they just don't do. Face it, the mains get the bigger say in how reworks/balances are accomplished or not.

annnnnnnnnnddddddd downvote

Big Lincoln3 votes

It is always nice when a champion has a diverse build base, where you can build tank, or attack damage, or maybe AP, but this causes a lot of problems for the design teams from a balance standpoint.

This didn't happen to Mord, and no, it's not.

First; it's not Mordekaiser's situation: he didn't build attack damage for most of the past few years, and his tank build was bad due to so many others having high CC and equally strong base damages. It was mostly a trade between high burst full-AP or sustained damage tankier AP. Mordekaiser lost the ability to max his spells differently, because there is, really, only one spell that ends up being worth its cost early on -- his Q. No longer can he max his W for defensive lanes and extensive trades, nor E for lanes to poke in. That alone works counterproductive to Riot's ideal 'diversity' that they like to preach about while forgetting about practicing it. You get one good choice of support for him - engage. That's it. Either you pick someone who can engage if Mordekaiser is locked in first, or you don't pick Mordekaiser if your support locked in Karma or Soraka.

Second, and I'll include another quote in here,

Building/balancing a tank/mage/AD fighter? Now you have 3x as many items to keep track off, and you have to make sure that each build is both not broken AND also still viable.

Let's count, off the top of my head, how many champions have multiple build paths and, much like Mordekaiser, either weren't problematic or are no longer issues.

Amumu Blitzcrank Chogath Ekko Elise Evelynn Gragas JarvanIV Jax KogMaw Malzahar Nasus Poppy Sejuani Shaco XinZhao Zac

Many of these champions offer multiple builds, whether it be as damage dealers or tanks. Malzahar and Kog'Maw have both AD and AP builds; a lot of these guys' AP off-builds give them high burst, and they still have justifiable (or superior) AD builds. I've seen nobody complaining about these (most of the time.) Balancing champions for one role and only giving them the capability to run one build is the reason that we get stagnant metas with nothing but stat checks and RNG-ruled bot lanes.

What you want to do is NOT just focus on those who main that champ but the entire fan base as a whole, which frankly they just don't do. Face it, the mains get the bigger say in how reworks/balances are accomplished or not.

Cassiopeia mains got no say.

Veigar Mordekaiser Karma , and only Veigar's was justifiable after numerous compensation buffs to bring him up to par.

No, you shouldn't focus on this degenerate majority fan base. Because they'll pick that champion up after seeing a shiny new rework, play them for maybe a week, and if they aren't mind-bogglingly overpowered, they'll be dropped, leaving this champion with an uninterested fan base and, generally, with many of the players who used to main them moving on to someone else.

But please, do tell me how these reworks were for the best. I'm really interested in how Mordekaiser became a much healthier, more interesting champion with his kit losing its synergy with itself in favor of a gimmicky 3-hit ability and losing many of the versatile skill-max and build options he once had.

annnnnnnnnnddddddd downvote

Cool.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

Anyone else feel like the complaints about cass are really dumb

Melledoneus2 votes

I fear for the Shen rework now.

D:

The Soulforged2 votes

I wish Riot would be willing to bend to the playerbase of other champ fans... I'm a Poppy main so I fear the future.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

TL;DR, but I support any and all Riven changes simply because she needs to be able to fight the juggernauts.

That aside, they should follow through on any and all changes they do to anyone, since they ignored pleas to keep Mordekaiser 's identity.

Zazusha2 votes

remember when they were gonna nerf leesin. the leesin mains rioted, and they reverted.

YambrinZ2 votes

Why even bother doing this with RIVEN. She sees random play in pro play. She isnt permabanned. Rito pls, stop messing with RIven anjd give us a new Yorick skin.

softest boy2 votes

No, please. Ignore the Riven mains screaming for their waifu. Please continue with the Riven rework; it's completely necessary. :'c

iainB852 votes

Riot is still by and large an immature company who has no idea how to deal with a game this large. They prove it over and over again. Just enjoy the game for what it is or stop playing is what I've learned to do... you aren't going to get good results hoping they listen to the community or do the right thing. They are in WAY over their heads at this point... if it wasn't for their amazing job at fostering the eSports community this game would be struggling IMO.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

The worse part was that, at least from what I saw, the changes weren't even that heavy compared to Mordes and some others, yet for some reason, THAT was enough to get riot to say they'll revert it if it gets enough complaints... I don't think they're trying to protect their LCS pets anymore, I think they are just complete cowards when it comes to champs who have a large LCS Scene.

Project Riven1 votes

Riven is a very unique champion compared to other champions in the pool. If there was a rework, it would need to be very unique as well and would need to take serious consideration before going live.

I feel that the "edge" mechanics is no different than Tryndamere's rage, except for the part where she can consume it all for increased wind slash damage. I like where they were going with it though even though it's nothing new into the game. It gives more room for them to work around Riven's kit.

ButterBladesX4 votes

every champion is unique in its own way. They messed up mordes uniqueness with the rework. he is such a messed up champ right now :( shame they didnt do experimental stuff with him like with riven.

Byakuya Kuchiki1 votes

you do realize on the first day it was put onto pbe it was said it was experimental and will probably not go through right?

Big Lincoln3 votes

you read the title of this thread, right?

like, you clicked this thread, you had to have at least read the title

Byakuya Kuchiki2 votes

oh so you're literally complaining that they're doing something right? in that case please realize that they have done this a lot in the past like at least 4 times this season

Big Lincoln5 votes

I'm complaining that they haven't done this for other champions, yeah

But Riven is popular so they have to tiptoe around her fans. If she had a low pick rate like Mord or Cass I guarantee you they'd push this out without asking for feedback.

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