There is nothing more fun than trying to assassinate an adc as a mage.

YoungFarmer·Apr 14, 2016·102 votes·4,787 views

Just too have half your burst absorbed by maw and steraks and then to be killed while all your abilities are on cool down.

151 Comments

Vistha KaiApr 14, 201641 votes

An ADC gets stunned, mage pulls out a perfect combo, but the ADC lives through that, the CC ends and the ADC kills the mage in 1 second with 2 autos.

PartholonianApr 14, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-14T17:47:52.835+0000)

An ADC gets stunned, mage pulls out a perfect combo, but the ADC lives through that, the CC ends and the ADC kills the mage in 1 second with 2 autos.

Sterak's and Maw don't give enough damage to let you kill anyone in 2 autos (not even Sona, who despite memes actually does have more health than a cannon minion).

Vistha KaiApr 14, 20169 votes

Because you can only ever build two items as an ADC.

Biff ManlyApr 15, 20162 votes

And because a mage who lands their stun will obviously stand still within auto-attack range of an ADC.

Stevev45Apr 15, 20163 votes

You have to be close to land a stun against a good adc. Other wise they can just move out of the way.

Biff ManlyApr 15, 20166 votes

A-ha~

Luckily, I'm not good, so I go up against other people who are also not very good. Take that, Challenger players!

Vistha KaiApr 15, 20163 votes

Considering pretty much every popular ADC has a dash or a blink spell and that there aren't actually that many long range stun abilities in the game...

Yes, a mage will have to get inside the danger zone of an ADC.

Stevev45Apr 14, 201618 votes

you forgot the "using deep and engaging skill mechanics" the ADC kills the mage in 1 second with 2 autos (refilling their health in the process).

AsphodelNextApr 14, 201622 votes

There's nothing more fun than playing an ADC and skipping your IE to build Sterak's Gage and Maw only to get bursted down anyway by a mage.

AbyssphereApr 14, 201629 votes

{quoted}

There's nothing more fun than playing an ADC and skipping your IE to build Sterak's Gage and Maw only to get bursted down anyway by a mage.

If you're rushing Sterak's into Maw then there's... no chance whatsoever that a mage is bursting you. 400 bonus HP, 40 bonus MR and a large magic damage shield is quite simply not burstable at that stage of the game by anyone.

AsphodelNextApr 14, 20169 votes

My point wasn't that Sterak's/Maw doesn't protect against burst. Because it does.

My point was that it would not be fun for ADCs to get bursted with Sterak's/Maw if it didn't protect them.

AeszarckApr 15, 20165 votes

It's a very fair point.

DarkSunSovereignApr 15, 20162 votes

Fair point, but you can't have them dealing the same dmg anyway, which they do.

doombotMECHAApr 15, 20163 votes

but with both, they're immortal, and that's not fun for anybody else. in this fantasy land where these items aren't a garuntee of continued existece, yeah getting bursted through them wouldn't be fun. but no ap mage can do that RN.

NarasimhaApr 14, 201625 votes

To be fair, if you're rushing Sterak's into Maw, then you're not doing much either. The enemy ADC would just crit you out of existence.

LankPantsApr 15, 201618 votes

Unless you're Graves, in which case you get to be broken for free.

PartholonianApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If you're rushing Sterak's into Maw then there's... no chance whatsoever that a mage is bursting you. 400 bonus HP, 40 bonus MR and a large magic damage shield is quite simply not burstable at that stage of the game by anyone.

There's also no chance that you're going to do as much damage as an ADC that built real damage items. Sterak's in particular gives almost no damage to ADCs, who have unusually low base attack damage as a class. You're probably going to lose a trade to an ADC with one real damage item, let alone two -- although they might still have a hard time 100-0'ing you, they can certainly chunk you and put your anti-burst items on cooldown and then probably back off to do it again in 10 seconds.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 15, 20162 votes

There is also no chance you are killing that mage , or anyone with those items early on. Gonna have the most useless early game and probably no impact mid lane. Great they cant die, that can't do anything else useful either.

Also how does a mage get within range to be killed by an ADC at any point in the game other than player error?

Pierce The VealApr 14, 201610 votes

Well I mean mages aren't supposed to assassinate carries anyways.

Kappa.

Imagine how I feel as an assassin main that doesn't play Zed. I mainly play akali too which means maw also gives me cancer.

Vistha KaiApr 14, 20161 votes

Akali would be one of those few APs that care the least about Maw, though.

KnoyleApr 14, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-14T17:45:32.764+0000)

Akali would be one of those few APs that care the least about Maw, though.

How? If most of your damage is coming from AP then that shield is a huge middle finger no matter what you are. Even Fizz hates that thing.

EchousApr 15, 20164 votes

As an avid Fizz player (FEED ME YOUR HATE) I agree.

though I hate Hexdrinker more as it is overtuned for what it gives in terms of automatic defense against anything magic damage and it is so stupidly cheap.

SoMNiaApr 14, 20167 votes

...Then check their items and know when they're vulnerable to be burst down and when they're not? Building anti-burst items should protect you from burst.

Voluug13Apr 14, 20166 votes

The problem is when you give access to said items (that are pretty much above 100% cost efficiency) to a class whose only weakness is burst.

Its like giving Bruisers a ranged AA item. Or mages an instant refresh CDs item.

EchousApr 15, 20162 votes

exactly this

They are supposed to be the easiest class in the game to burst down, and for the most part they are, but when they build this two items pretty much all AP burst threat is gone, adding on any peel you get from your team: which obviously you will get you're the god damn ADC; you pretty much just nullified and eliminated the major magic damage threat and now have a 4v5 to deal with the remaining AD threat.

Letting them cover their only weakness to a specific type of class (AP assassin and burst mages) is stupid.

If they don't want to nerf Steraks they should at least make Maw Melee only, since Steraks absorbs all types of damage.

FoxstepApr 15, 20163 votes

{quoted}

exactly this

They are supposed to be the easiest class in the game to burst down, and for the most part they are, but when they build this two items pretty much all AP burst threat is gone, adding on any peel you get from your team: which obviously you will get you're the god damn ADC; you pretty much just nullified and eliminated the major magic damage threat and now have a 4v5 to deal with the remaining AD threat.

Letting them cover their only weakness to a specific type of class (AP assassin and burst mages) is stupid.

If they don't want to nerf Steraks they should at least make Maw Melee only, since Steraks absorbs all types of damage.

So if an adc buys 2 defensive items he should still be bursted down by a Veigar for example? The adc traded damage for some tankiness and it's fine.

Biff ManlyApr 15, 20164 votes

Yeah, imagine if Galio or Annie had some form of mobility summoner 4 so they could nuke your entire team with their ult. It would completely cover a major weakness of the otherwise immobile mage class.

How scary would that be?

Supreme Senpai69Apr 15, 20163 votes

To be fair that's an active on a 5 minute cooldown that is down often and can 'miss.' Maw is sorta just passive and chillin and basically up in every fight.

SoMNiaApr 15, 20161 votes

They grant a window of burst damage resistance. It's like if an immobile mage had access to short bursts of mobility summoner 4 , or a bruiser had access to a ranged, targeted slow and damaging attack item 3153 , or mages had access to unlimited mana regeneration item 3174 .

But see, "unlimited" is a problem, and that's why the last one is getting changed to a support item (sustain is meant to be a support's strength, so it fits). Maw and Gage are not unlimited burst protection. They have cooldowns. That's why they're allowed.

Voluug13Apr 15, 20161 votes

They grant a window of burst damage resistance.

???????

And what does burst do? A window of heavy damage.

The difference is that assassins either have a way out or sustained damage. Most burst mages dont, and get killed before their next spell is ready.

It's like if an immobile mage had access to short bursts of mobility

Except everyone takes flash. But it benefits often those with mobility even more that to inmobile champions.

Which is why the Hexyech Rocketbelt is such a bad idea.

or a bruiser had access to a ranged, targeted slow and damaging attack

Active that is extremely short ranged.

And you really are comparing a small slow to ranged AAs? Seriously?

or mages had access to unlimited mana regeneration

Yeah, and Athene's often comes with low stats. And its not ''unlimited'' unless you are Ahti, Nidalee or Le Blanc. The champions that actually buy it extremely often need another mana item to be able to have ''unlimited mana''.

Specially since it scales with maximum mana.

But see, "unlimited" is a problem, and that's why the last one is getting changed to a support item (sustain is meant to be a support's strength, so it fits). Maw and Gage are not unlimited burst protection. They have cooldowns. That's why they're allowed.

No, it doesnt. It doesnt fit, because the only champions that bother to buy Athenes are the ones designed to spend mana like crazy. Even through Athenes has been nerfed several times, Riot still thinks it alone gives ''unlimited mana''. Which is often ridiculous and untrue.

Syndra Karma Orianna Ziggs and more just get rekt by the changes. Riot cant simply go there and say ''suck it up buttercups, your casts have to be more meaninful now'' when they have been releasing champions whose mana efficiency is terrible and have pathetic burst and depend on sustained damage/poke.

And while Gage/Maw have CDs they are often shorter that the cds of MANY ults, which are more that enough to incapacite any mage that cant buy CDR or has a high CD cooldown ult.

SoMNiaApr 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

???????

And what does burst do? A window of heavy damage.

They have cooldowns multiple times longer than the spells against which they protect. What's so confusing about that?

The difference is that assassins either have a way out or sustained damage. Most burst mages dont, and get killed before their next spell is ready.

So don't all-in if you can't get the kill, and don't be in a position where you can't either win or get away if they engage. Honestly. Fundamentals. Mages have range for a reason.

Except everyone takes flash. But it benefits often those with mobility even more that to inmobile champions.

Which is why the Hexyech Rocketbelt is such a bad idea.

No, mobility has diminishing returns because the map isn't getting any bigger. It helps immobile champions much more.

Active that is extremely short ranged.

And you really are comparing a small slow to ranged AAs? Seriously?

No, it has 550 range — the same as most marksman autoattacks. It serves as a gap closer (not strictly "mobility" in the general sense) and decent upfront burst. Or did you forget it also chunks their health and heals the user?

The champions that actually buy [Athene's] extremely often need another mana item to be able to have ''unlimited mana''.

Specially since it scales with maximum mana.

What's your point? Mages are supposed to build at least some flat mana anyway. And you don't have to be able to spam every single spell as soon as it's off cooldown. As long as every single time you actually want to cast a spell, you have the mana for it and don't have to worry about not having it later, that is functionally unlimited mana. Athene's currently provides that on its own (depending in part on level). Unless you're spending 100 mana to kill a minion, it gives you unlimited mana. Or you're Sona or Nami, and your team won't stop tanking damage for no reason. -sigh-

No, it doesnt. It doesnt fit, because the only champions that bother to buy Athenes are the ones designed to spend mana like crazy. Even through Athenes has been nerfed several times, Riot still thinks it alone gives ''unlimited mana''. Which is often ridiculous and untrue. and more just get rekt by the changes.

New Morellonomicon gives 400 mana. For Syndra at level 9 (when she finally gets a passive...UGH, she needs work), that's around 3 minutes (175.4s) of base regen, or 1.5 (87.8s) with current Morellonomicon. Current Athene's makes it around a minute, maybe a bit more if you keep your mana pool full. That's Athene's alone. One minute. If you're spending 400 mana every 20 seconds...stop spamming. You don't need to Q that minion unless you're about to B anyway.

As for high-cadence casters getting rekt by the changes, have you seen the new Catalyst and Tear? Midrange mages like Ori who are exposed to damage should get a lot of mileage out of the Eternity passive (especially given that Ori and Karma have shields), and longer-range ones have their mana pool effectively increased by 1/3 with Tear (3/4 cost = 4/3 resources). Not to mention Karma and Ori being able to actually heal allies (utility always comes at a cost, of course). The Morellonomicon changes mean mages have access to large mana pools without giving up CDR in the early-mid game. And let me remind you that 500 bonus mana (Dark Seal + Morello's) on a mid-level Syndra makes her pool large enough for ten Qs, four Ws, two Es, and an R with no regeneration. Tear into Abyssal gives even more than that. Mages will be fine. The sky is not falling.

And while Gage/Maw have CDs they are often shorter that the cds of MANY ults, which are more that enough to incapacite any mage that cant buy CDR or has a high CD cooldown ult.

So don't use your blasted ult while the anti-burst items are off cooldown! You don't get to complain if you just let a Maw eat your ult every time. Just...don't! Besides, with the coming changes, every mage can buy CDR. Maw has a 90-second cooldown, which is actually longer than a lot of ults, especially at rank 2+ and/or with a little CDR. Sterak's Gage has a 45-second cooldown, but it only triggers if they have enough health left to lose when you start your combo. Chip off about 25% of a Gage-wielding ADC's max health, and it becomes irrelevant. The problem happens when you assume you should be able to 100-0 burst an ADC just because they're on your screen and you're a mage who's relatively even on gold and levels. That's not how the game is tuned, and if you try, you're going to regret it.

Hayaishi2Apr 14, 20166 votes

ADCs don't build maw and steraks god get your head out of your ass, Graves is not every ADC.

YoungFarmerApr 14, 201612 votes

{quoted}

ADCs don't build maw and steraks god get your head out of your ass, Graves is not every ADC.

Lol buddy, we need to have a talk.

My Waifu VanillaApr 14, 20163 votes

Graves, Kog, and Kalista are the only ADCs that consistently buy 1 of those items and you know what they all have in common? They don't build crit outside of Hurricane. Every other ADC in the book skips these items because they rely on crit to do meaningful damage which means they aren't getting either of these until 6th item IF they pick it up at all (3 crit items+LW).

Ezreal MIGHT opt for one of these items, but still he isn't getting it until atleast 4th/5th item so that still gives you 30+ minutes to blow him up like most of the other ADCs.

PartholonianApr 14, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-04-14T20:35:58.143+0000)

Graves, Kog, and Kalista are the only ADCs that consistently buy 1 of those items and you know what they all have in common? They don't build crit outside of Hurricane. Every other ADC in the book skips these items because they rely on crit to do meaningful damage which means they aren't getting either of these until 6th item IF they pick it up at all (3 crit items+LW).

Ezreal MIGHT opt for one of these items, but still he isn't getting it until atleast 4th/5th item so that still gives you 30+ minutes to blow him up like most of the other ADCs.

Graves is being changed to become more crit dependent, too (I think as soon as the Taric patch). Although his short range may mean he'll still be reliant on some not-dying items before he can build damage items.

However, I think the OP is coming from an ELO where you don't need to build a LW item in most games because you're against something like Yasuo MasterYi Leblanc Jinx Annie . In which case, hell yes I'm building anti-burst and skipping armor pen. Doesn't mean the build is broken, just that it is super effective against certain team comps.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 201626 votes

Lol

When Steraks is in both Kog'Maw's most common AND highest winrate builds, you know something is very wrong.

The Yetii RiderApr 14, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-04-14T18:52:20.523+0000)

Lol

When Steraks is in both Kog'Maw's most common AND highest winrate builds, you know something is very wrong.

Well Kog doesn't care about crit or AD all that much.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 20169 votes

And? Kog has ZERO total AD scalings and by design is supposed to build strictly damage items. The fact that Steraks not only makes Kog harder to assassinate but is also good enough to trade for a damage item on league's original glass cannon means something. Just make it melee only ffs

The Yetii RiderApr 14, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-14T19:13:51.007+0000)

And? Kog has ZERO total AD scalings and by design is supposed to build strictly damage items. The fact that Steraks not only makes Kog harder to assassinate but is also good enough to trade for a damage item on league's original glass cannon means something. Just make it melee only ffs

You can't make juggernaut items melee only. AD Nidalee and a more aggressive Gnar would be locked out of building them.

Melee vs range restrictions are unviable as long as we have champions that do both.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 20161 votes

AD Nidalee isn't a thing (and was apparantly cancerous when it was) and Gnar should be able to benefit from defense items like Steraks in his tank form but not his mini form. Nothing sickens me more than seeing a 4K HP mini gnar that can soak damage without problem.

If you make the Steraks passive and AD boost only while in melee form then you allow both cases to still work for their intended uses, since AD Nid does most of her damage with panther Q anyway and Gnar is supposed to be easier to kill in mini form.

Deadly MittensApr 14, 20164 votes

One post I saw a while back that had a good idea, Steraks shield decays with time, making it more effective against burst. Lowering the base hp/shield scaling but removing the shield decay would make it more effective for drag out brawlers while nerfing it on squishy burst champs.

EchousApr 15, 20163 votes

Honestly the only change it needs is for the shield to be based off % bonus health.

Then an ADC, who isn't going to invest in any health other than that Steraks will get far less benefit than a juggernaut who built sunfire and SV to try to soak and only has Sterak's for a semi-aggressive item.

Gnart Even CloseApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You can't make juggernaut items melee only. AD Nidalee and a more aggressive Gnar would be locked out of building them.

Melee vs range restrictions are unviable as long as we have champions that do both.

thank you for bringing this up. however, something really needs to be done to make it better for tanks/bruisers and not on squishies, such as making it require having 3000 health to proc or something like warmog's

Hayaishi2Apr 14, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEvsx0ps,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-04-14T18:52:20.523+0000)

Lol

When Steraks is in both Kog'Maw's most common AND highest winrate builds, you know something is very wrong.

Because he only needs one damage item to reach late game, Kog is kinda dumb.

DrehirthApr 15, 20165 votes

These circle jerk threads are so stupid. Over 40+ games in your match history I looked at and not one game on either team did an adc have a maw and a steraks, and a very low number (5ish) did I see a maw/hexdrinker bought.

In reality if you're an adc you are trying to get your core 2 items quickly before you can buy any situational items or your damage will be gutted. You'll be flashed on, ignited, ganked by that underfed or fed assassin (doesn't matter, if they lost lane they'll use their faceroll damage to try and make up for it by getting fed off you, or if they won lane they'll go for you anyway to get more fed), and ulted/all inned by everybody the second you show your face anywhere.

If you dare buy maw/steraks before you manage to get your two items their "tank" (anybody abusing that tank dlc pack item 3068 item 3025 ) will be impossible to kill, and they'll sit on you and kill you easily anyway. If they are an actual tank then they will towerdive you easily and be completely immortal because you bought defensive instead of buying item 3036 that you need to effectively kill them.

That's the actual life of an adc, stop acting like all adcs are graves or quinn, because they aren't. Most games I win as adc are by trying to not die to this stack of b.s. so I can be there to take towers rather than running and gunning invincible with supposedly easy to get items out of nowhere.

Adcs have the items they need for situations, and I'm not saying they need buffs because they are needed so much to take towers/force end games but holy shit these items they need aren't as easy to get as you think they are, and you haven't even had adcs get these items in your games anyway so what the actual fuck are you talking about?

Steel BlossomApr 15, 20165 votes

There is nothing more fun than having to miss out on crit, lifesteal and a lot of bonus AD to build two bruiser items as an ADC. Except for Graves . He's basically a ranged bruiser at this point.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 20163 votes

Hell the same could be said for actual assassins too.

You think Yi/Fiora/Ekko are building tank items because they want to?

ProfDrDeathApr 14, 20165 votes

Of the three, only Ekko is a dedicated assassin - Yi and Fiora are fighters who need to stay in the fight for full effectiveness instead of going in, unloading and going out.

And even Ekko's kit is more suited towards longer-term combat patterns, between his 3-hit passive, his delayed Q return, his W passive and his low CD, low damage abilities.

Only Play DariusApr 14, 20161 votes

Yi is listed as an assassin first, just he isnt really played as one. Glass and bruiser Yi were both options last season and I would pick according to the situation. After the ADC reworks, which buffed ADC items but didn't really benefit Yi and in fact hurt some of his favorites (like BOTRK and Ravenous) I can't make glass Yi work.

New Fiora is supposed to build more towards damage than defense but that just doesn't work in teamfights the ADC doesn't care about your fancy out plays in teamfights they will just stay back and right click you until you die.

EchousApr 15, 20162 votes

Rito seriously over tuned all the ADC's and their massive changes, now we see the shit changes they are offering mages in the first phase and it just makes me not want to play league anymore.

I'm tired of only having one major armor item option and it being irrelevant because the ADC two shot me during my CDs and I couldn't push my hotkey in the ONE SECOND window the adc got two auto attacks off in.