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What Do YOU Want Karma to Become?

SilverSquid·10/27/2019, 5:27:52 AM·50 votes·19,123 views

It's been roughly a year since Riot tasked RiotNeuroCat with reworking Karma. Unfortunately it didn't work out too well and the rework was scrapped. This tells me two things:

  1. A rework to Karma is inevitable at this point
  2. Riot just doesn't seem to know how to go about it yet.

The Karma fans I know are really diverse and sometimes have conflicting ideas, so I think it is the community's job to get together and make it a bit easier for Riot. However, first I'd like to know what direction people want to go, on average.

There are several ways of going about this:

1) Keep it simple...

This would entail only working on details. Juggling numbers, some QoL improvements, no visuals. This option is for anyone who is mostly contempt with Karma's current state, or only wants her to move a nudge at best.

A rework like this would require the least resources but risks being not enough.

http://media.comicbook.com/2017/08/karma-1016050.jpg

2) Do Old Karma justice

With "Old Karma" people usually mean her first iteration, that existed until season 3. Back then Karma was strongly influenced by Asian culture, with fanblades and a yin-yang theme. Her playstyle was closest to Vlad, Swain or Rumble; a baity mage bruiser with a unique supportive twist.

A rework like this could tap into a lot of unused flavour, but is most likely going to alienate her current fans.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/3f/Karma_TraditionalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181021030201

3) Shieldbomb Karma was best

Karma was relaunched in 3.5 with a kit very close to today, but with some key differences Back then, the closest champions to her were Mages like Lux, Morgana and Orianna, while today she is very often listed beside Enchanters like Lulu, Janna and Nami. This kit lasted until ~5.10 when, among other things, the damage on her mantra'd E was removed.

A rework like this would probably feel like a revert with little innovation, but risks only small disruption to the fanbase.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NAOY-7LUvDs/UV-7oYrsEMI/AAAAAAAADzY/sJw_cO9AjTw/s640/karam3.png

4) Give us Twindragons

As could be seen in the recent Phoenix Clip and her concept art from season 3, Karma is supposed to have twindragons as a "weapon", instead of her old fanblades or current green blobs. Similar to how old Irelia failed at being a Psi-Blade champion, current Karma just falls flat as carrier of dragons. As proven by Irelia, Riot's skll in delivering on those fantasies has drastically improved over the years.

This rework would probably require the most resources and move Karma into an unknown, possibly better future.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zrHgmN6uoto/maxresdefault.jpg

5) Listen to everyone

Karma's community has huge rifts within it. And at this point, we know that everyone's gonna give a little. However, taking the best of all Karma versions and trying for a compromise might work. It's hard work and maybe risky, but since all Karma versions have very often non-overlapping strengths, this might be possible.

A rework like this could potentially please everyone or leave everyone equally dissatisfied.

https://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbseg/2388/2388160-bigthumbnail.jpg

Please share this with fellow Karma enthusiasts, the more the merrier! If you think I missed an option, please let me know in the comments. Maybe you can also elaborate on what you voted on, so others can understand why your opinion is objectively the best ;)

Either way, please be respectful, we are all passionate about this!

122 Comments

HP Crookshanks10/27/2019, 5:41:06 AM35 votes

Revert the ridiculous AP ratio nerf on her Q

Muzét10/27/2019, 11:55:33 AM11 votes

I think they should mixed out 2 and 4. I feel like being a blessing to allies and a terror to enemies would nice, especially using the yin/yang thematic throughout the twin dragons. I think that making her R a transform ability to switch between those two stances and the first spell used in one or the other would be empowered is a good idea. The passive could empower a new spell if you stay in one of the stance for awhile but increasing the ability cost in exchange. Maybe add another small passive on top of that when she switches stance like "Heal herself and surrounding allies when switching to Yin Dragon Stance and Empowers self and next ally abilities when switching to Yang Dragon" (i.e. Grants an ephemere +1 Level to the next ability allies will use)

For the basic abilities this could help her keeping some of her current kit but I would prefer to use other abilities which would make use of those dragons.

Logicalily 10/27/2019, 7:14:01 AM11 votes

Shieldbomb Ivern

Winterkill10/27/2019, 4:06:19 PM9 votes

Let's face the truth and be real here, Riot is never going to change her. They cancelled a GU update on her almost a year ago, have done back and fourth buffs and nerfs for the past 4 years, and keep claiming through-out the years that she needs massive work. Meddler, Reav3s, Ricklessabandon, Neurocat, and a few other Developers have commented on my posts about changes involving Karma. They've all clearly showed zero interest in fixing their mistakes 6 years ago. 6 years ago a Developer with no knowledge of VGU and how to rework champions, was given to work on Karma and it was met with MASSIVE backlash because he changed and removed everything that was liked about Karma. The Developers continued this trend by removing even more things on Karma that was beloved and replaced it with a gameplay identity that is all over the place, a visual update that is half-arsed, and a bland and boring kit.

Riot wants Karma to sit in the backline and press Mantra E and do nothing else. Meddler and Reav3s are the sole reason why Karma will have problems because they refuse to admit that her Mantra abilities are a problem and need to either be reworked to give her a gameplay identity or completely replaced to give her a gameplay identity. I've always advocated for current Karma to be reworked into parts of old Karma which is:

  • A new passive that allows Karma to work as a mage and support equally.
  • A heal on Mantra Q if used on allies.
  • A ally Mantra W mechanic.
  • Damage on Mantra E.

If they added that above to her current kit, Karma would have her old kit as a battlemage/support. Karma's gameplay identity would be Twin Dragons with one protecting and one damaging. These Developers don't get it and they don't care. It's just time to move on.

Daddyissuess10/27/2019, 10:53:51 AM9 votes

If Janna can shield Towers, can Karma atleast shield minions again :/

Star PlatinumELO10/28/2019, 1:20:34 AM9 votes

Battle Mage with Supportive qualities.

DivineMantra10/27/2019, 7:22:08 AM8 votes

As a Diamond 2 Karma main, I definitely agree that Karma has been in problematic state for quite some time. She’s had a lot of power given and stripped from her especially this season, but ultimately, I feel like so much more has been taken away from her than what has been given. As such, I really like the options you list here, as I think they will bring a little more back into Karma’s kit, since she is definitely not strong in this current meta at all.

I personally think that giving her the damage component on her Mantra shield back would be good, as this would be a good buff to make sure Karma doesn’t fall off too hard in the late game, where she can become quite useless if not smashing her opponent. This would allow for Karma to have mantra back up a little more quickly, as well as sufficing for the shield that is given to the allies that you didn’t cast the shield on being so god awful. I also agree that implementing the dragons into her kit would be super cool, but I feel like that’s a lot of work that Riot wouldn’t be willing to undergo, as this would mean reworking her visuals. Really great post though. Definitely made me think about all the different directions Riot could go with Karma!

jocomotion10/27/2019, 5:48:27 PM8 votes

Honestly they should avoid adding anything new. Both old and current Karma have enough mechanics they could either add back in some way/shape/ or form, and because of that I don’t think making new mechanics is the way to go (like when they tried to make her W reduce champion cooldowns and give mana for example.

Some examples of things from old Karma that should at least be considered bringing back are:

  • Shield bomb

Maybe not in its instant-cast iteration from before, but I could see Riot nerfing Karma’s pro play reliability by hard nerfing RE in exchange for returning shield bomb.

  • giving W an ally function, even if it’s not a supportive one

Even if it doesn’t actually give anything to allies, imagine being able to tether an enemy/ally of your choice to catch out enemies, or you could play to the supportive aspect and have it buff allies in some way like sharing speed buffs (just off the top of my head)

  • Playing up the Karmatic theme

Old Karma’s passive (while bad in terms of its execution) could be revitalized to play up more of her Karmatic theme of “if you hurt me but give me the chance to hit back, it WILL hurt”. The only problem is making sure this idea doesn’t take over her kit, while remaining something to think about for the enemy team.

Then there’s the problems that Karma has or has had that don’t all need hard fixes, but should at least be addressed

  • Good early game, good mid game, and decent late game generalist with no easily abused tangible weakness. AKA why she’s so good in pro play

  • Making mantra’d ability choice be an actual skilled part of her gameplay, and not something determined by play style

  • W’s heal scaling. My god. It’s been literal years. Why.

  • Defiance’s currently overtuned nature

  • Her lack of damage options besides Inner flame and soulflare

  • Her passive’s hidden but oppressive power

I actually don’t think a revert is necessary, but taking the best parts of both kits, and fixing the problems with the current kit seems like the smartest way to go about it at the very least.

IxtaliKing10/27/2019, 1:52:29 PM6 votes

I see no reason all these options couldn't be delivered on somewhat simultaneously.

Current Karma is basically a blank placeholder with inflated numbers allowing her to function. Reverting the 3.5 shield bomb doesn't take much effort, and is healthier (more interactive) than the current RE. Reverting RE also allows Riot to fix the real issue plaguing her kit - her f****** passive. The uptime on her Mantras is too high for too little effort, and it's making "ok" for players not to be thoughtful when using it.

Nobody complained about Karma back when her passive was at 2 seconds at all ranks. Now it scales to 4, and she can just sit back and refresh her Mantras faster than most basic abilities. That's broken, and it's making everyone hate our champ to the point that crowds boo when picked in competitive.

The twin dragons seem mostly like a cosmetic thing that could be added even without a rework.

Bootleg Gay10/27/2019, 2:58:18 PM5 votes

I absolutely LOVE Karma. She was the first support I played 7 years ago (After her rework into what she kinda is now) and she was fun to play.

However, it's clear to see that she just isn't living up the the standards of a classic mage support. For me, it's similar to Irelia's inability to deliver on a theme. Karma does the same currently; she's a reincarnation of an Ionian spirit with tons of untapped power and an unmatched sense of right and wrong.

Especially after her lore updates and story, I was in awe of what she could be. I was wanting nothing but for her to have an ability like the scene in which is only tries to use a little but if magic to scare Noxians away, but instead completely obliterates a ship and everyone on it.

This is how I would do a rework on her, and it's probably not how the Karma mains would like it, but I feel it's just right.

Passive- Needs replaced. Ultimate cool down is boring. And can't be noticed by anyone other than the Karma player. Maybe something along the lines of damaging champions with abilities allows allies to heal off them after hitting them. I'd want some kind of marking or drop (like ancient coin?) way of healing, without just getting it.

Q- She stays. I'll get to the empowered version in a bit.

W- Gotta go. While many love the tank or battle mage playstyle, it just doesn't merge with the rest of the kit for me. It needs changed into something either more intuitive (like Bard's Q or Varus bind logic) or replaced with another ability that gives solid utility. I wouldn't mind an ability with a tether that reads off the closeness of enemies. Wild split them up or force them to fight.

E- Big shield is fun. We like fun. It's simple, it's easy, and can be used for a lot of things. She stays.

R- Some might hate me, but I really don't like the low cool down. I'd change it to be learned at level 6 like other ultimates, and give it a normal cool down similar to Mami or Sona. The reason for is it; I want BIGGER moments, but I can't have them every 20 seconds. Giving it normalcy wild allow for more impactful effects.

RQ- I'd turn it into that lore scene. A small bolt that expands wildly on impact in a cone, like a Graves ultimate but wider.

RW- Enhanced utility. Snares galore with ribbons of soul magic tripping up whole teams. Tying them to walls or each other. Or maybe an enhanced version of whatever regular W is replaced with. Like I said, I could go for an entirely new ability.

RE- Big shield, but on all nearby allies. Maybe doesn't deal damage, or maybe it does if those shields are broken by enemy champions.

I just want the best for Karma. She can do so much more and is such a powerful character in this huge string of Runeterra lore. She deserves better. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

ShyImagoghnar10/27/2019, 6:22:51 PM4 votes

i want karma to be 0% pick rate 0% win rate

Tomosuke10/27/2019, 2:54:01 PM4 votes

Karma is by far my favorite champion. I said it so many times that her kit just does not reflect who she is about in her lore. She is described as someone who is capable of great power that has been forged and passed through each life. She should have the most knowledge about Ionia and Runterra because of that. Her lore also said she obleterated an entire Noxian warship in the blink of an eye. Yet she does none of that in game. In fact over time she got so many nerfs its like she has no identity or real impact on her team.

Karma is a leader, an inspirational one. Her kit needs to show that. If she feels the need to act, be offensive she can. Or be passive when necessary, defend herself and her allies. Someone like her should be able to easily flow between stand alone mage or a good support. Right now it feels like she can do a lot but... none of them well. Newer champions surpass her in so many ways that its shameful that she has been in this state for so long.

I would like to see her have a lot of AOE damage spells and healing effects just like her old self. In the Awaken music video they portrayed Karma correctly... Passive and almost nonexistent. All she did was shield the allies and threw out some weak auto attacks on minions in the background. That is the current state she is in. A shield bot... and a poor one that falls off late game if she didn't get enough kills. Enough kills (like 4 or more early game) so she can stay ahead. Other champions scale so much faster that she HAS to stay ahead to be reliable late game.

Invexes10/27/2019, 8:54:23 PM4 votes

What i love about Karma is that. She has that classic non-elamental arcane battalmage feel.

I want her to be a frontline mage with her self shielding and repeated blasts.

Hexs Fortune10/28/2019, 1:36:27 AM3 votes

I'd like to see them bring back her fans

ModRowanstar10/28/2019, 6:27:28 AM3 votes

No no no! Karma does NOT need a vgu. Gameplay update is fine but her design and model are great.

Hilsun10/28/2019, 8:58:02 PM3 votes

Honestly I'd like to see her original form (or an updated version of it) return. That AoE fan+heal were amazing, and shield bombing was some of the most fun I ever had playing League—not to mention the super fun interaction that used to exist with her tether.

RegardsKitty10/27/2019, 10:43:16 AM3 votes

Rework her again, and most likely just end with something that's as problematic as the current one.

Żügżwäng10/29/2019, 3:08:59 AM2 votes

I do like Karma's old idea of balancing damage taken with damage. We don't really need her as a support. She used to have something similar to the current "last stand" rune. I also do like the twin dragons art.

Regina George10/28/2019, 8:20:35 AM2 votes

I want her to be a ranged/mage Lee Sin if that makes any sense.

I just loved her old design so much that I'm still bitter about losing it lmao.

She just needs to be reworked from the ground up tbh, give us new things cause at this point, you're gonna upset anyone anyway so just change everything about her.

It'd be cool if she hovers during her ult or something like how Lux jumps when she ults. IJS

nachocheeseeeee10/27/2019, 6:23:26 AM2 votes

Wait she is due for a rework? Wasn't she like the first champion who got a full relaunch? I play her mid and support and she is still viable to me at least. I just build runes based on the cooldown of her ult.

Forhonor32110/27/2019, 5:33:30 PM2 votes

I think the twin dragon approach would be interesting. While I would like to keep things simple and maybe just do some tweaking or one ability change, I also feel like it might be time to take bigger changes if Riot can't figure out what to do with her.

Maybe incorporating old Karma a bit to make some people happy but I don't believe that she needs a shieldbomb. I just feel like we have better representations of shield bombs (Sion, Kayle, Ivern) and adding more would just feel repetitive.

The one thing though I want to make clear is that this probably won't please everyone. You're still going to get people who will bitch and complain that their champ has changed from what they were, that the new rework sucks before testing/seeing it, etc. It's also hard to try and fit a little bit of everything in equally without having it feel in-cohesive and playing like it should. It really should try to focus down one path, with maybe one specific element added in to make some people happy a bit, like going down the dragon route but making an ability really simple, and bring back a bit of the yin-yang theme.

Ôwâri10/27/2019, 1:59:05 PM2 votes

Why you want a rework of Karma she is good Riot just need a Visual Update and new VFX that all don't touch Karma :( or just the W that all

The Kombinator10/27/2019, 2:25:39 PM2 votes

Would be nice to have a strong shielder champion. Like being able to block more, than 1 basic attack from enemy carry, or save someone squishy from the assassin without using summoner spell, or an ult with 2,5 minute base cd.

PzyXo10/27/2019, 4:38:48 PM1 votes

Just make her a normal support, don't make her a 1 ability oneshot master, like this she'll be OP. And don't overnerf her till Karma players start complaining, I've never seen any Karma player complain before S9, Karma players are the most peaceful players in league, If you see them complain, that means there is a problem. So learn how to balance ffs.