Only the largest shield applies at a time.

Critmaster Garen·Sep 8, 2017·63 votes·2,249 views

that is all. balance shields from there.

fuck the idea of a shield breaker item and the problems its going to cause. as soon as you introduce a mechanic like that, you have to balance shields around the existence of the mechanic. means shields are either too weak in general, or op when you dont buy the item.

weve seen this happening with resistances and penetration, and with heals and grievous wounds. in 7 years of playing this game, ive never seen heals vs. grievous wounds in a healthy state even once. one of the two was always overbearing.

balance shields and tune them on their own, and just forget about a new mechanic.

51 Comments

La BelloSep 8, 20177 votes

ehh kind of a bad idea

so like If Im and get my passive then Janna shields me my passive just vanishes into thin air? that wouldn't feel good at all.

I personally think Shields being a big problem is a itemization thing. item 3190 item 3401 are simply giving players access to more peeling tools than they're normally supposed to have (Janna now gets 3 shields for her carry instead of 1). Instead of making these silly items rework Locket active.

AhristocatsSep 8, 20176 votes

CC works like that, i don't know why meddler doesn't do that

he just wants to powercreep the game even more

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE9FgBUs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:09:36.677+0000)

CC works like that, i don't know why meddler doesn't do that

he just wants to powercreep the game even more

like i said in the other thread. theyre aware of the problems it will cause and theyre hesitant.

the only reason theyre even experimenting with it is probably because of the outcry and people have been asking for it. im just saying they should go with their instincts and try to tune shields down as they are.

SwiftKitten88Sep 8, 20176 votes

thats sounds good on paper but would totally screw up abilities like Lux W which stacks with itself and is DESIGNED to stack with itself. because when it didn't they had to make to too damn strong instead of getting half on the way out and half when it hit you again.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 8, 20174 votes

So then how do you balance effects like Janna's shield giving extra AD, or Orianna's giving bonus armor and MR? Those likely wouldn't be as strong in HP values as Cho'Gath stoneplate active Locket shield, but they have specific effects that are maybe wanted over that shield value

Malicious MetalSep 8, 201716 votes

Only the shield gets applied, the lingering effects still remain.

iamthegoatofwarSep 9, 20171 votes

Hey MM...I'd just like to say that I salute you, but I don't think riot is going to even think about mord's passive before this change goes through.

WinTheWarOnPantsSep 9, 20171 votes

The real problem i see is keeping track of shield duration. What if a small shield is applied after a big shield or has a longer duration? Seems like it will be hell to try and make that work unless it just straight up canceled out the smaller shield(which would be huge problem too).

Chembaron YamadaSep 9, 20171 votes

How does this work with stuff like Nautilus . His bonus effect stays as long as the shield is not broken. Btw, how does this work right now with other shields? Do you have to break all shields applied to him or just deal as much damage to the shield as the skill was granting?

That dude is confusing. .__.

SalronSep 9, 20171 votes

Shield and effects are typically tied to the same buff

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20177 votes

{quoted}

So then how do you balance effects like Janna's shield giving extra AD, or Orianna's giving bonus armor and MR? Those likely wouldn't be as strong in HP values as Cho'Gath stoneplate active Locket shield, but they have specific effects that are maybe wanted over that shield value

the shields basically overlap.

so that means the buffs are still applied, but the hp values from both shields dont stack while theyre applied.

this also means if the larger shield runs out before the smaller shield, the smaller shield still applies until its own timer runs out.

overlap. its as simple as that.

DrakylonSep 8, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE9FgBUs,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:21:34.480+0000)

the shields basically overlap.

so that means the buffs are still applied, but the hp values from both shields dont stack while theyre applied.

this also means if the larger shield runs out before the smaller shield, the smaller shield still applies until its own timer runs out.

overlap. its as simple as that.

However, Janna's AD buff and Lulu's Pix transfer are currently directly tied to the shield value; if the shield value > 0, then the buff is applied, otherwise the buff is not applied. With overlapping shields, since only the strongest shield appears on the target's health bar, how will players know how much damage they need to do before they can get the buff off of the target?

As a side note, Orianna's shield itself doesn't actually give Armor and Magic Resist; it's having the ball tied to that target that gives those stats. This can also be seen when Orianna walks over her own ball to get it; she'll get the Armor/MR buff without having a shield on her.

parrot6632Sep 9, 20173 votes

pix stays on the target regardless of the shield value

Tarquin96Sep 9, 20171 votes

the buff goes out when dmg = to the shield is given,so if naut has a 500 shield and janna gives 350, if naut takes 350 dmg he still has his 150 shield but loses the ad

DrakylonSep 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the buff goes out when dmg = to the shield is given,so if naut has a 500 shield and janna gives 350, if naut takes 350 dmg he still has his 150 shield but loses the ad

I'm not asking when the buff drops off. I'm asking how the enemy will know how much damage they need to do to remove the buff, without outright memorizing and calculating all the shield numbers on the ability.

AhristocatsSep 8, 20173 votes

how do you balance which CC gets its damage applied?

which one will damage you? ivern Q or lux Q?

flibitydooSep 8, 20173 votes

that example isn't a good one

orianna's shield itself doesn't give the armour and MR. the ball being attached does, which means even when ori's shield is broken it will continue to provide the resistances.

a better comparison would be like sion W or Naut's W and janna's shield. which both have conditions tied to the survival of the shield.

SpecterVonBarenSep 9, 20171 votes

Quoting myself here.

Here's one way to make it so it doesn't fuck up people with self shields with added effects to them. Make it so the stronger shield will override the weaker one EXCEPT for one point of health to the previous shield. This means that Sion's shield, if it wasn't the strongest shield would stay active until both the more powerful shield and Sion's now 1 HP shield got removed so he could still use it as he needs for the damage.

AlienPrimateSep 9, 20172 votes

I know you said something about shield breakers being bad, but I think they should change the active on Ohmwrecker to do just that. My Idea is this. Instantly destroy any shields on a targeted enemy and make them unable to be shielded for 3 seconds. Something like this is much better than grievous wounds because you have to actually use it and don't get it passively. It can also easily be balanced by making the cooldown longer or shorter.

Critmaster GarenSep 9, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I know you said something about shield breakers being bad, but I think they should change the active on Ohmwrecker to do just that. My Idea is this. Instantly destroy any shields on a targeted enemy and make them unable to be shielded for 3 seconds. Something like this is much better than grievous wounds because you have to actually use it and don't get it passively. It can also easily be balanced by making the cooldown longer or shorter.

amazing. so when im a fighter with steraks, or a tank with a shield im pretty much worthless.

no.

this item would be mandatory on supports and shit on every fighter or tank who relies on shields to stay alive for one more rotation.

there are shields that are balanced atm that would become worthless if such an item existed. thats the problem with this approach.

the only issue right now is massive shield stacking. which we could get rid of by just not letting shields stack.

DarkRitualSep 9, 20172 votes

I'd much rather Ohmwrecker deal damage, but ONLY damage to shields. This wouldn't invalidate shields, or make it MANDATORY depending on buildpath and stats.

I'm against non-stacking shields. Having each be progressively less effective would be a preferable solution.

Jet SettSep 9, 20171 votes

The ease of applying shields would make this only slightly impede mass shields. No one that shields a target save Rakan really even do that much for their shield, and it's probably better for the shields to stack anyways because if you can't get through one of them then the other one was wasted reinforcing something that could stand alone.

An item that can break/do extra damage to shields would be a lot better considering the playstyle of those who apply shields, which is stand back in a place where no one can touch you and buff your team. Depending on how effective you make the item's stats you could actually have some challenges to the traditional passive playstyle where people jumping into the backline can pose a threat and actually need to be put under crowd control instead of the ADC having shields thrown at them while they gun them down.

Acheron16Sep 9, 20172 votes

I agree. As grievous wounds has shown for like 8 years, creating a mechanic to counter a numbers problem NEVER turns out well.

Hong Kong RevoltSep 9, 20172 votes

Im not high elo or anything, but that just feels bad for champs whose sustain comes from shields. What if enchanters couldn't spam heal/shield thrmselves ( like how raka W works) or ult themselves back to full? Sure it hurts lane enchanters, but that seems like a plus.

SalronSep 8, 20171 votes

I'd rather have diminishing returns on additional shields casted ontop of existing shields Mainly because having only 1 apply at a time means that shields with bonus effects like Janna or Ivern would push the buff of the previous shield off whoever you're casting it on

RecuroSep 8, 20171 votes

I actually kinda like this idea. Sounds like it might potentially be too harsh but definitely worth looking into. Might be a bit weird for people with self shields alongside shield supports. But still I like this over shield breaking mechanics, that just sounds obnoxious.

As for how bonus effects on shields are applied I'd think instead of only having one shield, they just overlap instead. So you could have several shields at the same time but they all take damage equally.

Darkdemon653Sep 8, 20171 votes

While the current order isn't currently strongest to weakest, shields do currently have a priority. I don't see why having the order of absorption be based on strength would make anything any better.

CasterGilgameshSep 8, 20171 votes

no what he wants is dumber he wants only one shield to apply and no other

ParvatiShallowSep 8, 20171 votes

but but protect the kog strat! This would definitely add a higher skill cap which I like.

LordGeovanniSep 8, 20171 votes

Thats bullshit they just need to nerf the champions that do so much shit and are the targets of shields Marksmen. playing sion how has his shield damage on a delay not that it does any damage now sion needs a shield to protect his shield to get any damage done from it

CowseedSep 9, 20171 votes

Diminishing returns would be better. Remember we aren't on comms so people will just instinctively shield the lowest person, thus making 3-6 actives and abilites wasted :/

LexLutheran87Sep 9, 20171 votes

If the item talked about is a hex drinker type item... One item making a whole class/play style useless... if this is there thoughts then screw riot. Shielding is fine in the game, it's what is currently letting team fights actually be a thing.

If they want a shield breaker effect put in a new champ kit, that way it is limited as a counter in certain matchups versus, purchase and now these champs might as well go back to Nexus.

RebonackSep 9, 20171 votes

This is how temporary HP (shields) work in D&D. They don't stack, they overlap. Keeps multi-bubbles from being silly.

Critmaster GarenSep 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is how temporary HP (shields) work in D&D. They don't stack, they overlap. Keeps multi-bubbles from being silly.

funny thing is, this is why i thought of it.

Enraged PigletSep 9, 20171 votes

I think they should either make shields not have armor/MR stats from your champion so people deal true damage to it or shields have diminishing values when stacked on eachother. But honestly shields seem quite a bit weaker recently so I'm not sure if there's anymore need for any change to shields now, but thats just me and not my place to decide ~

AirKingNeoSep 9, 20171 votes

Maybe nerf heal/shield power because giving support items free stats without taking anything away was a bad idea.

wyvern011976Sep 9, 20171 votes

Or No.

Shields are important outplay tools to keep high value team members alive. They have CDs and can be played around so learn to do it. This idea is basically saying "do not play any immobile late game ADC". Those champ are designed to support one of the major team comp options.....inevitability. Which adds another dimension the overall game. These carries also need it to stop one shots from full health by assassins (who should have to bide their time not simply press buttons for kills), and to battle champs with the immense amounts of health the tank meta brings into play before they get cced into oblivion.

SleepcomaSep 9, 20171 votes

there wouldn't be a need for a shield breaker item if power creep didn't exist

DunkinNoobsSep 9, 20171 votes

This is one of the biggest "feel bad" changes I've ever seen. I hate shield spamming as much as the next guy but this is an extremely short sighted solution that would be absolutely disastrous in anything but pro play where they'd be able to coordinate the shields.

ViciousSummonerSep 9, 20171 votes

True damage now ignores target shield buffs.

Problemo solved. Just kidding that would be insanely annoying.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 9, 20172 votes

inb4 Cho'gath literately loses all counterplay, and the only counter to Fiora and Vayne's true damage becomes health regeneration.

Rhai FrostfangSep 9, 20171 votes

What if shields got less effective the more they were stacked? For example take lockets "Limitation: This effect is halved if the target has been affected by another Locket of the Iron Solari in the last 8 seconds." But instead just make it for shields in general

CryptocurrencySep 9, 20171 votes

Also would add a higher skill to it, having to time abilities and items more.

SpecterVonBarenSep 9, 20171 votes

I didn't believe it before but now I do. I've legit just had it happen to me.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7Fyx26oV-how-to-make-excessive-shielding-less-of-a-problem

Made the same idea a few weeks ago, got downvoted for it, someone makes a thread with the same idea yeasterday, gets upvotes.

God I hate people...

Critmaster GarenSep 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I didn't believe it before but now I do. I've legit just had it happen to me.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7Fyx26oV-how-to-make-excessive-shielding-less-of-a-problem

Made the same idea a few weeks ago, got downvoted for it, someone makes a thread with the same idea yeasterday, gets upvotes.

God I hate people...

weird. ive had the thought for much longer, and in some of my older posts i already made this suggestion.

i think its a pretty common thought many people might have how to get shields into a more balanced state. im not surprised we had the same idea and made independent threads about it.

i am suprised however that your thread got downvotes.

xJLx MCHammerSep 9, 20171 votes

You know this little rule would be good. it worked with slows (only the largest slow % is applied to the target, and it does not stack)

However, Riot wont do that for shield for some strange reason.

Yet, they plan add an item that makes shield feel like healing. Like you said, this will be bad, it's either too good or just a bad mechanic. They will never find the right balance for it. If anything, it will likely be something only ADC's utilize because... you know ADC's need more itemization... lmao

Shepherd o SoulsSep 9, 20171 votes

I think one major issues is how it actually plays against healing. There's no ways around it and the value is so strong, just a big flat % reduction for touching people. GW has no real interactions and there's not anything you can do about it. If they don't want to remove it, make make it interactive instead of being "I looked at you now you can't heal."

Ex: GW can't be reapplied over and over and has a timer on instances so you would have a windows to get actual heals in and then use the GW windows to do other things. Not the best suggestion but just showing that there is a way to make GW not awful without complete destroying it and impacting league balance too hard.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 9, 20171 votes

You hit champs that run multiple shields on themselves, like Shen with Courage, too hard that way. Or Galio.

And how does this affect things like Morgana's E or Sion's W, where the point of the shield is less the damage reduction, and more the secondary effect? And what if, say, Morgana's E is the bigger shield? Does it take that one, which doesn't block physical damage, or does it take the regular one, which isn't as large a number? And how does it affect Ivern's or Sion's shields, which do damage upon expiry?

Along that line, how does that affect Ardent? If Sona (who has Ardent) uses her W to shield the ADC, and then I ult said ADC as Shen (who had better not have Ardent), does Ardent cancel out? What if I ult first, meaning their smaller shield never comes online for Ardent to take effect? What about Athene's, does the shield still transfer that health?

What about things like Maw of Malmorticus, which you are literately incapable of controlling? You can't just go, "Nah, I won't use Maw's shield right now. I'll wait until after Janna's shield wears off".

How hard does this impact champions like Lux, who are meant to shield their entire team at once, when alongside a different champion that gives a larger, single-target shield?

And what if the stronger shield has a shorter duration than the smaller one? What happens then? Does the smaller one come online automatically after the larger one expires? Or is the smaller one just wasted? What happens if there's a smaller one that lasts for, say, 4 seconds, and then a 1 second larger one hits them? Does the smaller one resume immediately afterward, losing only the duration of the larger? Is it put in "stasis", so to speak (giving a total shielding time of 5 seconds)? Or does it just outright cancel it?

While this is the first relatively fair suggestion I've seen for changing enchanters on the boards, it has way too many questions that need to be answered.

King of DemonsSep 9, 20171 votes

I don't like this idea simply because it will feel VERY unsatisfying for champions like Lux, who don't have a very high value on their shields.

Shields can stack all they want, the problem is that many new champions came out with shields and Locket received one as well. This was bound to happen sooner or later. Introducing new items (or adding an anti-shield effect to existing ones) seems like the best idea to me because it would not leave shields less powerful while finally offering a way to deal with them better.