"I hate being forced to build zhonya when I have to lane against a ad mid" -ap bias

ForgiveColour·Mar 2, 2015·2 votes·2,568 views

its not like zhonya is the most op item in the game. Bork got nerfed and zhonya is still untouched with its armor/ap+broken ass active. Zhonya is a must build on every ap champ 99% of the game i dont remember seeing a mage without zhonya at any of my games but hey it might be different in bronze i dunno. lets not forget how fucken ridiculous one click of an item can instantly turn a teamfigh #lcsoutplayedpressedzhonyagg #apbias

Zhonya counters everything

23 Comments

AbyssphereMar 2, 20157 votes

I don't remember the last mage I saw without Deathcap, a mana item or Void Staff either. It's not Hourglass's fault that mages have very strict build paths.

ForgiveColourMar 2, 20151 votes

you mean very op build paths? Ap items are the most efficient in game and most broken

DrCyanideMar 2, 20155 votes

No, he means limited build paths.

Lets look at what we have on the AD side of things, shall we?

Maximum AD:
Armor Pen:

Now on the AP side:

Maximum AP:
Magic Pen: (edit: is close enough in some situations)

item 3089 and item 3031 are equivalents:

Both give maximum offensive stats
Both enhance the effectiveness of your other offensive stats

item 3157 and item 3139 are equivalents:

Both give maximum offensive stats
Both give defensive stats against the other tech tree
Both have an active for getting out of tricky situations

item 3135 and item 3035 are equivalents:

35% penetration

item 3136 and item 3134 are equivalents:

Both give penetration
Both build into another item

item 3151 and item 3071 are equivalents:

Both give offensive stats in their tech tree
Both give health
Both provide penetration
Both have a damage modifier most effective when you can repeatedly attack

So at the end of the day you're coveting , which is taking an item slot that could be used for tenacity, more CDR, or faster movespeed. Meanwhile, the AP side is coveting , , and , none of which take away from the previously mentioned stats.

You also misunderstand the AP argument against being forced to build Zhonya's. It's not that mages don't want Zhonya's, it's that few can afford it to be their first item. AP Champions need mana in order to do damage. Many have to rush a mana regen item in order to be able to do anything at all in a team fight. I think every mage is OK with Zhonya's being a mandatory second item, but when it's a mandatory first, things are different.

Sightless66Mar 2, 20151 votes

Is anyone actually coveting Essence Reaver? Really? I also wouldn't say Merc's and Zhonya's are equivalents. One is definitely better than the other. I avoid building Merc's in game. I look forward to Zhonya's.

AD champions aren't exactly bursting with item choices either. Most AD carries have one build they can go for, with maybe one item choice. Some have two. Most all of them share the same build choices. It's not exactly a paragon of diversity. That's not to say that AP champions have it great either, but I wouldn't point to AD champions and say "that's a better set of items".

DrCyanideMar 2, 20151 votes

An item that gave maximum AP, CDR, and mana regen would potentially be a better version of Morellonomicon. As such, it would become a rushed item on at least some champions, no question about it.

Merc's isn't as well received as Zhonyas (especially since Hexdrinker exists), but I don't think you can argue that they're intended to be equivalent items. The situations they get you out of are different, but the QSS active is by no means bad or undesirable.

I think you're dead on about most champions having too few viable build paths. It's why I personally love champions like Ezreal, where you can build just about anything and have it work. AP, AD, it doesn't matter to him, you can pick it up and work it into your build. And even if you don't like a specific item in his build, it doesn't mean that other people don't like it in their Ezreal build.

I would like to see a better item selection across the board, and I think that meaningful item choices would really change the game.

Sightless66Mar 2, 20151 votes

An item that gave maximum AP, CDR, and mana regen would potentially be a better version of Morellonomicon. As such, it would become a rushed item on at least some champions, no question about it.

Well, that's assuming it was a gold efficient item. If it was as mediocre as Essence Reaver is, no one would really care. That also does kind of bring a thought to me. Morellonomicon actually represents the niche Essence Reaver was designed to fill (a good first-rush item that covers your mana cost and gives good stats), but it failed to do so. I'd actually call Essence Reaver the failed AD Morellonomicon.

Merc's isn't as well received as Zhonyas (especially since Hexdrinker exists), but I don't think you can argue that they're intended to be equivalent items. The situations they get you out of are different, but the QSS active is by no means bad or undesirable.

Zhonya's seems to be much more of a general use item than Merc's is designed to be. The stasis is a much stronger active, the stats are more efficient, and it has a better buildup. The QSS active isn't bad or undesirable, but it isn't as good as other things I could have, particularly with the gold inefficiency the item has. Zhonya's is always one of my best options. I have to acknowledge that there may have been an intention to have some equivalency between them, but I think their use cases are just too separate. That is kind of pedantic on my part though, so I guess I'll agree that you have a good point.

Ezreal is great, but he is the exception for AD carries. He has literally the most build variation. No other ADC has as much build diversity as him. Say I play Graves. Every game, I use the same item build. I can maybe throw in a brutalizer, but it's really not a good choice in the vast majority of games. For someone like Caitlyn or Jinx, there is no choice. I use the same build every game, until the fifth item. If I didn't, I would be making a mistake. I love Ezreal's build diversity too, but he's one of the only ones who has it.

I would like to see a better item selection across the board, and I think that meaningful item choices would really change the game.

Yup. Have to agree.

ForgiveColourMar 2, 20151 votes

the fact that you left out item 3001 prob mean ur a support main

DrCyanideMar 2, 20153 votes

Technically that's MR reduction, not Pen, but I should have probably included it none the less. I typically play champions with a range further than its reduction radius.

georgiotatosMar 2, 20151 votes

you forgot those equivalents too item 3048 + item 3043 or those item 3116 + item 3022

well i have played over 200 games as lb/ahri/zed on mid i am not the best but i have a lot of experience in the matter , i can tell you that yes an early mana item is very important to a mage, but you just have to see how the game goes, ask your jungler to give you a blue so you can rush item 3191 , assuming you get 80 cs in 10 mins you should be able to get a item 3028 / item 3114 + item 1001 + and at your next b you should be able to finish the item 3157 , i am not saying this doesnt have a price but you make the enemy ad mid unable to assassinate you and therefor useless against you, honestly if you still have trouble vs a ad mid after you get its 99% your fault

The ChinMar 2, 20154 votes

you can build roa and be durable enough that you don't need zhonyas

ForgiveColourMar 2, 20151 votes

i build roa instead of zhonya in a game

-Axel DC 2015

Pvt Yong TaiMar 2, 20154 votes

Personally, I'm impressed. You managed to get 10 downvotes in a matter of 30 minutes at non-peak hours.

Sightless66Mar 2, 20151 votes

He did put a lot of effort into it. Gotta commend that tenacity.

Yandere CarryMar 2, 20153 votes

OP admitted he was bronze, GG /thread

RasvMar 2, 20152 votes

You don't have to finish Zhonia's if you have other core items you need to build. Seeker's armguard gives you just as much armor.

The Queen ViperMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted} its not like zhonya is the most op item in the game.

Bitсh please... ever heard about an item called Zhonya's Ring? Now that was the OP item.

BlastermineMar 2, 20152 votes

Imo the only reason item 3157 is allowed to be so strong is because hardly any AP champs can buy item 3102 .

ForgiveColourMar 2, 20151 votes

or you can say getting a banshee is not worth losing the broken active in the game + ap

Shadow GilgameshMar 2, 20152 votes

The argument usually seems to be less that have to build it AT SOME POINT and more that they have to RUSH it as their first core item, since it is a very common item for AP mids to get at some point.

Icy AuronMar 2, 20151 votes

Zhonya's isn't nearly as good of an armor item as Abyssal is of a MR one. Zhonya's is a defensive item, yet for some reason takes a Needlessly Large Rod and gives 120 AP. Abyssal gives an equal amount of its defense for 860 gold less (the cost of a Blasting Wand). It gives you siuational 20 magic pen for your entire team. The active is good, but that isn't even the best AP item, much less the best item in the game.

Meep ManMar 2, 20151 votes

Champions Zhonyas doesnt counter: EVERY SINGLE ADC

Leblancs BoobMar 2, 20151 votes

Not like mana regen wasn't absolutely destroyed. Now let's nerf every mage's only hope against the likes of AD mids so we can just remove the mage class from the game. Great idea.

ForgiveColourMar 3, 20151 votes

i think anyone that plays with intelligence will rarely find themselves oom very often unlike bronze players